Battery Replacement Program Details

[Nubo]

Its the type of deal that appeals to pragmatists but repels idealists.

So true...

So my great idea of replacing my Leaf battery with a new one, and using the old Leaf battery to convert my sailboat to electric propulsion isn't going to happen?

After some thought, this may be exactly the kind of thing they are trying to avoid. Use of their "intellectual property" in "unauthorized" forms. Sailboats, dune buggys, converting other cars, use of individual modules, etc...

 

[surfingslovak]

There has been some speculation about the salvage value of batteries. The value is definitely NOT 70% of the new battery. Below 70% the batteries become less reliable.

I did a quick web search. See this paper from 2010. We are looking at $100/kWh (so about $2k).

http://www.sandia.gov/eesat/2011/papers/Tuesday/21_Neubauer_Abstract.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are significant costs involved in the processes between retiring a battery from automotive service and selling it to a secondary market (collection, testing, repackaging, etc.). Cready et al. [2] estimated these costs at approximately $72/kWh. Subtracted from a maximum selling price of $170/kWh, this leaves a salvage value of less than $100/kWh to be paid to the automotive battery owner.

http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/energystorage/pdfs/48119.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This source (same author) assumes something between 25% and 40% of new price. I think this is variable and still subject to research, since obviously no such market exists yet.

Yes, also note that the estimated resale value of $170/kWh is about half of the rumored $375/kWh manufacturing cost. Of course, the final price will be different when you factor in overhead.

 

[klapauzius]

Yes, also note that the estimated resale value of $170/kWh is about half of the rumored $375/kWh manufacturing cost. Of course, the final price will be different when you factor in overhead.

That was an estimate of $9000 for a new pack ...in 2010, made in Japan!!!

 

[surfingslovak]

Yes, also note that the estimated resale value of $170/kWh is about half of the rumored $375/kWh manufacturing cost. Of course, the final price will be different when you factor in overhead.

That was an estimate of $9000 for a new pack ...in 2010, made in Japan!!!

Yes, indeed. Although this was the estimated manufacturing cost, I believe, and not the retail price. Also the resale value quoted earlier seems to be just for the cells. The pack hardware, harnesses and the battery control module should be included as well. Especially if 3rd parties were considering making battery packs, like GregH mentioned upthread.

 

[doug401]

Its the type of deal that appeals to pragmatists but repels idealists.

So true...

So my great idea of replacing my Leaf battery with a new one, and using the old Leaf battery to convert my sailboat to electric propulsion isn't going to happen?

After some thought, this may be exactly the kind of thing they are trying to avoid. Use of their "intellectual property" in "unauthorized" forms. Sailboats, dune buggys, converting other cars, use of individual modules, etc...

Interesting... I thought of it as another way for Nissan to make two battery sales to one Leaf customer, and in my case, a way to make the Leaf more appealing, valuable, flexible and, as a result, a life long customer.

Sadly, I just listed my Leaf for sale on Craigslist.

It is all about control you know. Control of "intellectual property" like you point out, and control of the people who use it. But you can't control idealists.

 

[evnow]

Yes, also note that the estimated resale value of $170/kWh is about half of the rumored $375/kWh manufacturing cost. Of course, the final price will be different when you factor in overhead.

Yes - the big difference is the 70$/kWh of cost to refurbish the battery before selling to the secondary market.

I think we can assume a salvage value to original owner of the Leaf battery of between $2k and $4k. $3k would be a good single value to use.

 

[evnow]

That was an estimate of $9000 for a new pack ...in 2010, made in Japan!!!

Estimated by whom ? Link ?

I was trying to track the Leaf battery cost for a long time - the estimates and even hints by Nissan exec varied so widely, it wasn't very useful. There is a thread here on that.

Anyway, here about the cost in wiki ...

Excerpts from businessweek.com article, May 14, 2010:
"Nissan Motor Co., which will start selling its Leaf electric car this year, aims to cut the cost of the vehicle’s lithium-ion battery pack to less than $370 per kilowatt-hour to make a profit from the model." (US$8,928)

"Nissan’s battery currently costs about 1.05 million yen, or $472 per kilowatt-hour, according to Takeshi Miyao, an analyst in Tokyo at auto consulting company Carnorama." (US$11,328)"

green.autoblog.com article:

"A couple weeks ago, the Times of London reported that the battery in the Nissan Leaf cost the automaker around $9,000 to produce.

"Mark Perry, Nissan's chief product planner for North America, tells The Wall Street Journal that the actual cost is a little less than $750 per kilowatt hour, bringing the total to just below $18,000."

 

[klapauzius]

Estimated by whom ? Link ?

http://gas2.org/2010/05/05/report-nissan-leafs-battery-costs-a-staggeringly-cheap-375kwh-to-produce/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[evnow]

Estimated by whom ? Link ?

http://gas2.org/2010/05/05/report-nissan-leafs-battery-costs-a-staggeringly-cheap-375kwh-to-produce/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As I said in my post there were so many reports of various numbers that there is nothing definitive. There are also problems of translation - this $9,000 for eg. I think is from the "hope to cut the cost to $375/kWh" quote above.

 

[klapauzius]

Estimated by whom ? Link ?

http://gas2.org/2010/05/05/report-nissan-leafs-battery-costs-a-staggeringly-cheap-375kwh-to-produce/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As I said in my post there were so many reports of various numbers that there is nothing definitive. There are also problems of translation - this $9,000 for eg. I think is from the "hope to cut the cost to $375/kWh" quote above.

I just re-posted the link from SurfingSlovak.
Anyway, that was 2010.
Now they mass produce packs in Tennessee, so cheaper than 2010 prices should be expected.

 

[Valdemar]

I checked today and the price of my Leaf went down more than 1k over last month according to kbb. If the battery lease announcement is not the reason for this drop, what is?

 

[JPWhite]

I checked today and the price of my Leaf went down more than 1k over last month according to kbb. If the battery lease announcement is not the reason for this drop, what is?

Constant 3% depreciation per month. KBB email each month with my car values. My wife's Altima has hardly changed in 6 months. My LEAF has lost 3% per month pretty consistently. There was one month where it gained 10%, but that's heading into the winter, not sure why it went up.

If you were to poll all US LEAF owners, I won't mind guessing only a small percentage even know about the program. The community here at MNL is the exception, not the rule.

You guys are looking for black clouds where there are none.

 

[Valdemar]

If you were to poll all US LEAF owners, I won't mind guessing only a small percentage even know about the program. The community here at MNL is the exception, not the rule.

By looking at several '11 Leaf craigslist ads asking north of 20k :roll: you may well be right. I suspect kbb has so little data with regards to used Leaf sales so their numbers are not necessarily a good representation of reality.

 

[Deleted member 8423]

This thread has reached 50 pages! We should buy it a gold Rolex. Then "take it to a farm upstate".

 

[surfingslovak]

This thread has reached 50 pages! We should buy it a gold Rolex. Then "take it to a farm upstate".

John Voelcker wrote an article covering the Smart EV the other day. It might be worth reading in the context of this thread.

Battery Leasing Lands In U.S., Electric Smart Drivers Love It

 

[GRA]

This thread has reached 50 pages! We should buy it a gold Rolex. Then "take it to a farm upstate".

John Voelcker wrote an article covering the Smart EV the other day. It might be worth reading in the context of this thread.

Battery Leasing Lands In U.S., Electric Smart Drivers Love It

Quite so. Of course, those people didn't have to buy their battery first, then pay a rental fee on top of that with their original battery confiscated. Nissan needs to offer this up front to purchasers, and 70% won't cut it. 70% of 84 miles is 58.8 miles, and 70% of 67 is 46.9 miles. Smart is warrantying 80% of 68 or 54.4 miles. So Nissan is charging $20/month to guarantee 4.4 extra miles. And these ranges are too short for 70% to be useful to a lot of people given less than ideal conditions, unless they're used almost exclusively on city streets, as the Smart is likely to be. They'll have to match Smart's 80% for battery rental to work on a large scale, until ranges increase considerably.

 

[evnow]

Quite so. Of course, those people didn't have to buy their battery first, then pay a rental fee on top of that with their original battery confiscated.

Confiscated ? Such terminology lowers credibility.

 

[evnow]

I checked today and the price of my Leaf went down more than 1k over last month according to kbb. If the battery lease announcement is not the reason for this drop, what is?

KBB has had a poor record of predicting Leaf value. Last time I checked their prices were $5k more than auction prices. I guess they are slowly re-adjusting (there was also an article about KBB and plugin prices sometime back).

 

[evnow]

I just re-posted the link from SurfingSlovak.
Anyway, that was 2010.
Now they mass produce packs in Tennessee, so cheaper than 2010 prices should be expected.

That report by Time of London was plain wrong (search for reactions to that article on MNL).

The fact is no one outside Nissan knows what the price is. We can only guess the price by comparing to similar battery by LG used in Volt, which was $500/kWh.

 

[thankyouOB]

Quite so. Of course, those people didn't have to buy their battery first, then pay a rental fee on top of that with their original battery confiscated.

Confiscated ? Such terminology lowers credibility.

yes, you are right.
I call it the steal-my-battery plan by Nissan.

I own my battery. To get a new one on loan, I pay $100 a month and Nissan steals my battery; i.e. they take it without compensation.

a few years later, when i stop paying the $100, they take away their battery.

Yes. they are stealing my battery.