Biggest problem I have with the Leaf......

[planet4ever]

Let me ask a simpler question than. For those who have a 2011 Leaf on order, with it's 3.3Kw charger, and given that the 2012 model given a 6.6Kw charger, is it your expectation that you will be able to upgrade the charger? If not, would you consider delaying a purchase until the 2012 model is released, or is charging twice as fast not part of your purchase decision?

I think your assumption is wrong. The way I've heard it, Nissan is considering going to a 6.6kW charger for Gen 2, and Gen 2 is likely 2014, possibly 2013. You might be able to get a charger upgrade in a couple of years from someone else, but I personally doubt if Nissan will ever sell you one.

Of course personally, I don't care. 3.3kW is more than I need.

 

[ruimegas]

For me as long as I can replace my old battery for a new longer range battery at a more acceptable price than it is today I'm ok with my LEAF for sure. Besides NIssan already said that between 2014/2015 the 200 miles battery is out. What we need to do is make EV's a sucess to allow obtain scale economy and make batteries price goes down ASAP.

 

[mwalsh]

Of course personally, I don't care. 3.3kW is more than I need.

Heck, for the foreseable future I don't even see myself needing more than the 1/4kW offered by the L1. I wish I could say otherwise, but I don't. Unless I stoop so low as to get a second job. :shock:

 

[charlie1300]

Let me ask a simpler question than. For those who have a 2011 Leaf on order, with it's 3.3Kw charger, and given that the 2012 model given a 6.6Kw charger, is it your expectation that you will be able to upgrade the charger? If not, would you consider delaying a purchase until the 2012 model is released, or is charging twice as fast not part of your purchase decision?

The simple truth is that no one knows exactly what upgrades if any will be available when. My decision will be based on the assumption that the car as delivered is what I get, that there will be no upgrades, and that future resale value is extremely uncertain. So if I can't get good value out of the car as is, I shouldn't buy it. The value is based on my driving habits and how I expect to use it. I don't see this as different from my past purchases of ICE cars. I never expected upgrades on ICE cars, and expected resale value to be low since I usually run them into the ground.

If you determine that a 6.6kw charger is really something you need, then you should wait for it. I seriously doubt that any auto manufacturer is planning major component retrofits to existing EV models. Their normal business model is to upgrade in new models - then you have a reason to buy the new model. I'm also skeptical that any battery pack replacement available during the life of the current Leaf will be anything but an identical replacement. Even if a Gen2 Leaf with a better battery pack has come the market.

 

[smkettner]

I doubt a 6.6 charger will ever be standard equipment unless the 3.3 proves to be a major stumbling block for users and future sales expansion. Most likely the 3.3 will prove out fine for most people and if there is ever a 6.6 offered it will come as an option and a price tag.

Otherwise if the battery capacity is able to be doubled a larger charger might be warranted. I seriously doubt that will happen in five years and probably longer.

 

[Norway]

My 6-year old ICE car still runs like new and the only service it needs is the occasional oil and tire change. But its KBB value has tanked. Its resale value is 1/4 what I paid for it new. I guess that's to be expected with any car, electric or not. There have been forecasts of a high resale value for the LEAF, but it's really completely unknown as no one has tried selling an electric car in such large numbers until now. But I don't expect much resale value. If you don't want to take that chance, maybe the lease is the best option.

In Norway, 15 year old electric cars (Citroën, Peugeot, VW Golf) are sold for up to $20000!

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

i have a 2010 Prius package 4 with nav, BT, 3 door SKS, and solar sunroof. MSRP was about 31,000. its got 16,000 miles on it, and i would be lucky to get 23,000. so that is an $8,000 loss which would be a LOT higher if i had paid sales tax on the purchase.

 

[evnow]

i have a 2010 Prius package 4 with nav, BT, 3 door SKS, and solar sunroof. MSRP was about 31,000. its got 16,000 miles on it, and i would be lucky to get 23,000. so that is an $8,000 loss which would be a LOT higher if i had paid sales tax on the purchase.

So, that is just 1 year ?

 

[mitch672]

The 2010 Prius was availble in May of 2009, to "special" people who pre-ordered and where offered it by Toyota, so his 2010 Prius could be up to 17 or 18 months old. In comparison, I bought mine at the end of January 2010, so mine is only about 10 months old (about 10,500 miles on it)

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

mine was the first 2010 Prius purchased in the state which was mid may 2009, but that makes little difference in the fact that its not unusual for a new car to lose a LOT of value in a short period of time.

now if the price of gas were to jump a buck, that would probably give me back $5,000 in resale value

 

[walterbays]

The 2010 Prius was availble in May of 2009, to "special" people who pre-ordered and where offered it by Toyota, so his 2010 Prius could be up to 17 or 18 months old. In comparison, I bought mine at the end of January 2010, so mine is only about 10 months old (about 10,500 miles on it)

That could be a consideration for those of us who reserved after mid-April, i.e. those in the bottom half of the 20,000 cars for the US, i.e. those who may be getting our cars just before the 2012 model year opens. Any car takes a big depreciation hit when you drive it off the lot, but none more so than cars delivered at the end of the model year. (Thus the year-end clearance sales) Your 1 day old car is considered the same age as a 1 year old car, just with very low mileage. The effect would be even more pronounced if Nissan made some significant improvement to the Leaf, like a higher current L2 charger or improved batteries.

So what would it take for you to get out of line for the end of 2011 and get in line for 2012? First of all you'd have to be assured you could get in near the front of the 2012 line, and not at the end again. What else?

 

[mitch672]

Oh by the time MOST of the country (36 states) can order "fall/winter 2011", I would fully expect that to be the 2012 MY Leaf, probably made in the TN plant starting in early 2012/late 2011.

 

[Randy3]

Two thoughts --

1. Just like my house is now "underwater" financially but I'm still happy making the fixed monthly mortgage payments, as long as I plan to keep my Leaf for many years, I'm not very concerned with resale value.

2. In some (short?) tme, there will no longer be all these tax credits, rebates, etc. that will make my out of pocket costs for this car approx. $25,000. Will the cost of the future and better EV's be less than $25,000? I doubt it. The gamble of being an early adapter is certainly sweetened by the government incentives.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Two thoughts --

1. Just like my house is now "underwater" financially but I'm still happy making the fixed monthly mortgage payments, as long as I plan to keep my Leaf for many years, I'm not very concerned with resale value.

2. In some (short?) tme, there will no longer be all these tax credits, rebates, etc. that will make my out of pocket costs for this car approx. $25,000. Will the cost of the future and better EV's be less than $25,000? I doubt it. The gamble of being an early adapter is certainly sweetened by the government incentives.

comparing a house to a car?? are u serious

one the one hand, you have a car that is quiet frankly is leading one of the greatest watershed events in automotive history with (what i am hoping) is technology that has no where to go but up.

against a house? what are you expecting? your house to become worthless because computer controlled smart houses will be selling like hotcakes making your house obsolete?

your house's value is more rooted in location and condition than a car could ever be. if i buy a car in Hillsborough, CA or Deming, NM there is going to be relatively little in the price difference.

a house can be retrofitted for nearly everything. a car...well not so easily done so i dont understand really what you are getting at. i sincerely hope you are not considering or being forced to sell your home

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Two thoughts --

1. Just like my house is now "underwater" financially but I'm still happy making the fixed monthly mortgage payments, as long as I plan to keep my Leaf for many years, I'm not very concerned with resale value.

2. In some (short?) tme, there will no longer be all these tax credits, rebates, etc. that will make my out of pocket costs for this car approx. $25,000. Will the cost of the future and better EV's be less than $25,000? I doubt it. The gamble of being an early adapter is certainly sweetened by the government incentives.

comparing a house to a car?? are u serious

one the one hand, you have a car that is quiet frankly is leading one of the greatest watershed events in automotive history with (what i am hoping) is technology that has no where to go but up.

against a house? what are you expecting? your house to become worthless because computer controlled smart houses will be selling like hotcakes making your house obsolete?

your house's value is more rooted in location and condition than a car could ever be. if i buy a car in Hillsborough, CA or Deming, NM there is going to be relatively little in the price difference.

a house can be retrofitted for nearly everything. a car...well not so easily done so i dont understand really what you are getting at. i sincerely hope you are not considering or being forced to sell your home

 

[Randy3]

I guess I wasn't clear in my post earlier. I wasn't comparing a house to a car, but the idea that if I planned to keep them for many years, the depreciation isn't such a big deal.

Anyway, people don't always agree with my thinking. Have a good day...

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I guess I wasn't clear in my post earlier. I wasn't comparing a house to a car, but the idea that if I planned to keep them for many years, the depreciation isn't such a big deal.

Anyway, people don't always agree with my thinking. Have a good day...

cant disagree with you when i dont know the point you are trying to make or at least the comparison you are trying to make.

it is very conceivable that the Leaf could be worth much less than 25,000 in 3 years.

lets look at computer memory. in 1999, i bought a stick of RAM for my computer that gave me 512 MB of memory that cost me $189. then i bought some RAM that gave that was much fast for $80 in 2003 or 04 (cant read date).

well today, you can buy 4 times that much for half the price.

the thing we have here, is a completely unknown product development cycle. it took 10 years or 30 years to get to the Leaf. i think we are in for rapid and massive change and us early adopters will push that change.

i also think it will take 12-18 months FROM now before that change gains traction. so, our options for a 250 mile EV might be plentiful in 2014 and if its going for $30,000 i would have to think the 2011 Leaf is not going to sell for much more than $15,-20,000.

now that is all speculation. but having lived thru new product development cycles (yes i have a $4,500 rear projection TV sitting in my living room right now as we speak!! and the picture is still excellent. has 24...ya thats right, 24 inputs!! but what is it worth? its 55" but weighs probably 200 lbs takes up as much space as a couch and i do not recommend hanging it on the wall and its 5 years old)

daily we have reports of new energy storage solutions and sure 90% of what we read will never make it to market, 90% of the ones that do will most likely be introduced at a capacity lower than first reported (can we say " GMVolt hype?") and a high initial price, but business does know where the money is at and portable energy solutions is top of the line with a mountain of money poised to jump on the first viable option.

 

[ttweed]

comparing a house to a car?? are u serious?

Ya, get real! As my motorsports-junkie friends like to say, "You can always sleep in your car, but you can't race your house!" :lol:

Ooops, possibly the wrong audience here for that old joke....
TT

 

[EVDRIVER]

As soon as batteries in EVs are installed they are already behind the technology advances. I would really like to know the estimated pack replacement cost and I would like a "pre paid" upgrade option for a discount on an advanced pack, could be a good thing or good for resale. Plus a real charger.

Oh, And it uses Microsoft software, cringe

 

[DaveEV]

Ya, get real! As my motorsports-junkie friends like to say, "You can always sleep in your car, but you can't race your house!" :lol:

LOL! (As an enthusiast who doesn't have nearly as much track time (zero + 1 auto-x!) as he'd like)

I would really like to know the estimated pack replacement cost and I would like a "pre paid" upgrade option for a discount on an advanced pack, could be a good thing or good for resale. Plus a real charger.

Tesla does that - $36k estimated replacement cost today - $12k to buy one in advance 7 years later.