Businessweek on Leaf and Volt

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walterbays

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http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/11_02/b4210048400234.htm

Many interesting points in this long article:

* Story of Chalouhi picking up the first LEAF

* "60 percent of 1,600 U.S. consumers surveyed think their gasoline-powered cars are reliable. Only 30 percent of those surveyed think hybrid-electric cars are reliable (even after a decade of virtually trouble-free performance), and only 10 percent think electric cars will be trouble-free."

* "When Ghosn joined Nissan as chief operating officer in 1999, the company was flirting with bankruptcy; as CEO starting in 2001 he slashed 60 percent of its research and development projects but kept the costly battery program that led to the Leaf."

* "Where the Nissan team focused on the fewer than 100 miles a day traveled by 95 percent of drivers, Lauckner [GM] lingered over another set of numbers: 78 percent drive fewer than 40 miles a day."

* "They sorted potential launch markets according to three main criteria. First, they looked for places that had EV incentives left over from the late 1990s-early 2000s. Then they pored over maps showing the density of hybrid customers. (Of the early Leaf buyers, 80 percent have never owned a Nissan before. Amost half have owned Priuses.) Third, they focused on states where the local utilities were comfortable with the idea and willing to upgrade their grids if needed. "

* 'An electric vehicle charging at 240 volts draws 3,300 watts of power. A hair dryer may draw 1,600. "So we're two hair dryers," says Perry. "If that will cause a neighborhood transformer to blow, you've got bigger problems than EVs.'

* "Now that the company is inviting small groups of those who reserved to contact a dealer and order a Leaf, about half of them are actually ordering a car."

* "Few doubt that in the next year or two Nissan will be able to sell the 50,000 Leafs it can produce globally. As production ramps up to 10 times that, however, Nissan will need to draw customers from beyond the circle of green enthusiasts. If gasoline prices rise and the Leaf proves to be reliable and delivers its promised range at a fraction of the cost of gasoline-powered cars, Nissan might just pull it off."
 
walterbays said:
* "Now that the company is inviting small groups of those who reserved to contact a dealer and order a Leaf, about half of them are actually ordering a car."
Time to update my estimates !
 
It continues to amaze me that Ghosn has made such a singular bet. I am very glad he did so, but this is the most courageous decision made by a CEO in my memory. It is an epic bet.
 
They do have their own hybrid drivetrain as well.. see the Inifiniti M35h.
Lithium batteries, and a unique clutch system that seems superior to Toyota's.
 
'An electric vehicle charging at 240 volts draws 3,300 watts of power. A hair dryer may draw 1,600. "So we're two hair dryers," says Perry. "If that will cause a neighborhood transformer to blow, you've got bigger problems than EVs.'
:lol:
 
AndyH said:
'An electric vehicle charging at 240 volts draws 3,300 watts of power. A hair dryer may draw 1,600. "So we're two hair dryers," says Perry. "If that will cause a neighborhood transformer to blow, you've got bigger problems than EVs.'
:lol:

Does length of use make a difference? A hair dryer might only run 7 minutes while the EVSE might run 7 hours.
 
done it a million times already but i still feel compelled to do it again; i thank Nissan for the HUGE risk they are taking by being "100% in" on EV technology. no other company has come close to this commitment other than EV only companies, none of which have a fraction of wealth to lose compared to what Nissan is risking.

as a consumer, i feel that a bit of risk on my part is also required to make it work and i am willing to help Nissan by being a part of the risk. I made a bet on Zenn and it was probably not the best choice. sure, i got 12,000 + EV miles out of it and gained valuable insight, but financially it was probably a losing venture for me and the Leaf maybe as well. but i am willing to take the chance on Nissan and any other company who is serious about taking the risk.

**edit** oh forgot something... its about time that someone admitted the obvious!!!

getting a contractor to install a 240-volt charger in your garage, and having the city inspect it. It can cost anywhere from a few hundred dollars to $3,000 and take a month or two,
 
jhm614 said:
AndyH said:
'An electric vehicle charging at 240 volts draws 3,300 watts of power. A hair dryer may draw 1,600. "So we're two hair dryers," says Perry. "If that will cause a neighborhood transformer to blow, you've got bigger problems than EVs.'
:lol:

Does length of use make a difference? A hair dryer might only run 7 minutes while the EVSE might run 7 hours.
Yes & No.

Yes in the sense - this becomes an additional load that will probably overlap a lot of other loads, if charged in the evening.

No - if there is not much chance of overlap.
 
evnow said:
Yes in the sense - this becomes an additional load that will probably overlap a lot of other loads, if charged in the evening.

No - if there is not much chance of overlap.

At one of the CCSE events in San Diego, the SDG&E (utility) representative said they would prefer not to have thousands of EVSE's all switch on at precisely 12:00:00.00 when the super off peak rate started. I take it this isn't a problem for at least the first couple of years when there aren't enough EVs to make a difference. But long term they'd like to offer EV drivers lower rates in exchange for letting the utility decide when to start and stop charging. You'd still have your full requested charge by the morning, but it might have started a minute after twelve, or 6 minutes after, etc.
 
jhm614 said:
AndyH said:
'An electric vehicle charging at 240 volts draws 3,300 watts of power. A hair dryer may draw 1,600. "So we're two hair dryers," says Perry. "If that will cause a neighborhood transformer to blow, you've got bigger problems than EVs.'
:lol:

Does length of use make a difference? A hair dryer might only run 7 minutes while the EVSE might run 7 hours.


are we gonna do this again? are we ignoring the fact that this charge will be primarily happening in the middle of the night??

are we going to ignore the fact that we have power management issues because we dont use enough power at night? when using hydroelectric, you cant turn the water off at night. that is not how it works.

i can hear it now... people yelling "its the middle of the night, turn that damned hair dryer off!!"
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
are we gonna do this again? are we ignoring the fact that this charge will be primarily happening in the middle of the night??

are we going to ignore the fact that we have power management issues because we dont use enough power at night? when using hydroelectric, you cant turn the water off at night. that is not how it works.

i can hear it now... people yelling "its the middle of the night, turn that damned hair dryer off!!"

Yeah, it probably won't be a big deal in my neighborhood -- AC has to be the biggest draw and it runs alot less at night. But just pointing out an obvious difference that Perry didn't mention.

On another note, my local power plant ( Handley ) is natural gas driven. Does it have same type of power management issues? Also, anybody know what type of carbon foot print of a natural gas plant? How does it compare to coal?
 
jhm614 said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
are we gonna do this again? are we ignoring the fact that this charge will be primarily happening in the middle of the night??

are we going to ignore the fact that we have power management issues because we dont use enough power at night? when using hydroelectric, you cant turn the water off at night. that is not how it works.

i can hear it now... people yelling "its the middle of the night, turn that damned hair dryer off!!"

Yeah, it probably won't be a big deal in my neighborhood -- AC has to be the biggest draw and it runs alot less at night. But just pointing out an obvious difference that Perry didn't mention.

On another note, my local power plant ( Handley ) is natural gas driven. Does it have same type of power management issues? Also, anybody know what type of carbon foot print of a natural gas plant? How does it compare to coal?

wow!! that depends. natural gas is cleaner on the burn, but can be dirtier when collected.

i think our biggest hurdle to a successful EV future is the power distribution system in place now. we have hundreds of utilities with nearly a hundred different sets of rules and processes.

here in the Northwest, we are blessed with more hydropower than we can use. that is why 90% of the data storage in the US is here. server farms require cold (very very cold) to prevent heat buildup that will corrupt data. so we have them lined up along the water next to the dams that create the power they use. same with aluminum smelters, another power hog.

but with all that power available, we still use coal during peak because we dont get enough hydro to meet our peak needs, but then at night we have to sell power because we cant throttle the flow down enough to prevent catastrophic flooding, etc.

a nationally unified power distribution system that addresses this issue and uses what power we have in the most efficient way is something we need to get going now. there will will be miles of red tape that will dwarf nearly any other legislative action in history. but it really has to be done!
 
garygid said:
Possibly many "transformers" are under-sized, and they heat up during the day and depend upon cooling off at night to handle the next day's loads?

most are liquid cooled so pretty well able to handle heat. then again, its been a long time since i have heard one explode. but that was during a "tree meets gravity and loses" short circuit event
 
jhm614 said:
On another note, my local power plant ( Handley ) is natural gas driven. Does it have same type of power management issues? Also, anybody know what type of carbon foot print of a natural gas plant? How does it compare to coal?
Nat. gas is absolutely cleaner than coal, and if the plant isn't an antique then it likely uses combined-cycle turbines which are about twice as efficient as coal/oil furnace + steam type plants. Management is easier since the turbines are somewhat easier to throttle and turn on/off.

Of all the fossil fuels to use, natural gas is probably the best; roughly equal environmental impact to extract, overall much cleaner to burn. Plus it is technically possible to create methane from renewable sources so there is the potential for sustainability there.
=Smidge=
 
walterbays said:
At one of the CCSE events in San Diego, the SDG&E (utility) representative said they would prefer not to have thousands of EVSE's all switch on at precisely 12:00:00.00 when the super off peak rate started. I take it this isn't a problem for at least the first couple of years when there aren't enough EVs to make a difference. But long term they'd like to offer EV drivers lower rates in exchange for letting the utility decide when to start and stop charging. You'd still have your full requested charge by the morning, but it might have started a minute after twelve, or 6 minutes after, etc.

Thats easy...just let some people start 11:50, some 11:51, some 11:52... and break it up into 10 starting points and then just differences in peoples clocks will be enough to additionally spread the startup loads. To keep everyone the same, if you start early, then you end early as well. For that matter, you could add more groups after midnight, and just let them extend past the "normal" end point by the same amount.

No need to put the utility in charge of the appliance in my home.
 
hmm carwings could stagger the start times automatically since it would be monitoring all Leafs. maybe carwings needs to be standardized as well along with the plugs.

provide a variance for off peak charging rates for EVers to allow staggered starts and sufficient charging times.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
at night we have to sell power because we cant throttle the flow down enough to prevent catastrophic flooding, etc.

a nationally unified power distribution system that addresses this issue and uses what power we have in the most efficient way is something we need to get going now. there will will be miles of red tape that will dwarf nearly any other legislative action in history. but it really has to be done!
These guys are trying to make a start at transfering power on a massive scale between the North American power grids:
http://www.tresamigasllc.com/about-overview.php
 
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