Calculating Your Ideal EV

[iPlug]

...Once in a while, an ICE is the right tool

Agree, this is often understated. If a BEV works for someone 99%+ of commutes/trips, nothing wrong with renting an ICE if needed. Current BEVs serve the range and charging needs of most people. It just keeps getting better, so the outliers get smaller over time.

No problem discussing what works for individual people. It's just tempting if in the minority to project what would be needed to work onto others in the majority.

From a technical perspective (range, charging speed, etc), our BEVs work for us now and would for most U.S. homeowners. It's ok that the edge cases don't apply to us but to the fewer others.

More than anything right now it is about vehicle prices and access to charging for those who don't have good options at their residence. That too keeps getting better.

In a few years when there are available BEVs that can haul a lot of stuff a long way and charge rapidly, it would still make sense to rent these vehicles if they represent a tiny percent of commutes/trips. Understood, a large percent of 'mericans routinely commute in these ICE beasts although they rarely "need" them. Not sure how we change that culture.

 

[WetEV]

Whatever way you want to slice it, it was a pretty moderate trailer. Taller than a tent trailer, shorter than a full travel trailer. I know at the start they pulled a bunch of gear off the roof. Without collecting data on hundreds of trailers it's hard to say for sure, but I'm guessing it's a fair representative for medium trailers.

Shape matters. Square box, or slippery rounded?

https://trekkertrailers.com/new-square-one-camper/

https://www.airstream.com/travel-trailers/basecamp/

 

[SageBrush]

...Once in a while, an ICE is the right tool

Agree, this is often understated. If a BEV works for someone 99%+ of commutes/trips, nothing wrong with renting an ICE if needed.

I've rented fossil trucks 3 times so far this year and driven them a total of about 100 miles. Twice from Home Depot to bring home purchases, and once from Turo to bring home a large load of compost. Our other ~ 10k land transport miles a year are EV. Total rental costs are about $100.

 

[iPlug]

Renting that Home Depot truck is quite convenient and a bargain. We have also done the same over the years, even back in the ICE days when we were also a sedan family.

When we had the Plug-in Prius, it was uncommon to need to rent an ICE truck with the cavernous Prius hatch. Our Leaf hatches have not been as accommodating, but thus far we have not had the need to haul such large things sans Prius.

Many folks might also have a local family member or friend they could hit up to use their ICE truck if needed.

 

[SageBrush]

Renting that Home Depot truck is quite convenient and a bargain. We have also done the same over the years, even back in the ICE days when we were also a sedan family.

One HD episode was to bring home ~ 20 trees.
The other was to bring home construction equipment. Then I rented a Ford Transit Van from HD. It is hard to believe how cavernous that thing is and yet it is easy to drive. My wife could not help but comment on the way home on the plethora of trucks on the roads with dinky beds that are not useful for any real work other than keeping dirt/grime out of the cabin.

I presume that Amazon will want Ford Transit type shapes for their EV 'trucks.' I look forward to being able to rent one from HD.

The other reasonable alternative that is popular in Europe is to put a hitch on a car and tow when needed. I thought about it but I would still need to rent the trailer since I don't use it enough to justify buying one and having it sit in the driveway.

 

[iPlug]

One HD episode was to bring home ~ 20 trees.

Ok, would not have been able to do that in a Prius.

I presume that Amazon will want Ford Transit type shapes for their EV 'trucks.' I look forward to being able to rent one from HD.

Probably will be a nice upgrade for HD for this part of their business model as well. They would no longer have to drive the vehicles off the lot to refuel them - just plug them in overnight and as needed, and there would be money saved on maintenance.


At some point in the near future, there will be many truck stops with ultra high charging rate EV stations for big-rigs. These would also be good spots to charge and rent out heavy duty trucks for those who want an EV for remote long trips with boat, camper, etc in tow.

 

[danrjones]

Shape matters. Square box, or slippery rounded?

No doubt, absolutely

My tent trailer is pretty boxy, like most pop-ups (probably due to the nature of popping up)
I'd have to go back and see what model they were towing. I seem to remember it being a popup of some kind? But not a full height travel trailer? Hey, at least they didn't try towing it in the up position. I swear I saw someone towing a tent trailer popped up with the beds pushed in one time. Maybe it was stuck.

Sadly many full size travel trailers are also blunt nose.
A silver twinkie (air-stream) is much nicer but also heavier and more expensive.

I suppose if you are buying a $100k EV to tow, then replacing your trailer is no big deal financially. But I was thinking about where I expect EVs to get eventually. Not tomorrow. No way in hell can I afford a Rivian truck nor a Tesla truck, assuming its priced in a similar manner. But hopefully in my life.

Obviously if you only need a truck twice a year, this is all irrelevant. I use my truck all the time to go camping, hiking, etc. Some areas you need a truck and some you don't. Just depends on where you live and your lifestyle.

 

[WetEV]

Sadly many full size travel trailers are also blunt nose.
A silver twinkie (air-stream) is much nicer but also heavier and more expensive.

I suppose if you are buying a $100k EV to tow, then replacing your trailer is no big deal financially. But I was thinking about where I expect EVs to get eventually. Not tomorrow. No way in hell can I afford a Rivian truck nor a Tesla truck, assuming its priced in a similar manner. But hopefully in my life.

Obviously if you only need a truck twice a year, this is all irrelevant. I use my truck all the time to go camping, hiking, etc. Some areas you need a truck and some you don't. Just depends on where you live and your lifestyle.

There is also the Rpod and similar. They are not all boxy. I'm thinking about renting an Rpod for a short trip to try the idea out.

I might get a trailer to go with the etron. My parents did a lot of trailer camping after my dad retired. I bought a "left over", and it came with the towing package. Might not be practical for multiple reasons:

Spouse's health.
The loss of range may make this a non-starter.
Other assorted reasons.

The AirStream is rumored to be very aerodynamic. I'll need real numbers before committing to one, that is a lot of money.

 

[danrjones]

Numbers would be extremely helpful.

I have a feeling though if you walked into most trailers places today and asked what the coefficient of drag was they'd look at you like you were bonkers. But that's today.

Luckily there is the internet and youtubers willing to test this stuff. As EVs saturate, this will be something people care about.

Airstream trailers are very nice. I've seen in a few. Indeed a bit more than my ten year old popup.

 

[GRA]

Here's some earlier towing tests from back when the Model X was new - I know some of these are linked in the Model X topic, but don't feel like trying to find them using the crummy search capability. The Edmunds' report is especially useful at showing just how lousy the Model X (and by extension any current BEV) is as a tow vehicle for other than short trips. This was a 90D, so the 100D would be a minor improvement:

Review: A Tesla Model X Hauls A Trailer On A 1,000+ Mile Trip

https://insideevs.com/news/331668/review-a-tesla-model-x-hauls-a-trailer-on-a-1000-mile-trip/


Here's the direct link to the full Edmunds' 3-part article (part 3 is the actual trip report):

2016 Tesla Model X Long-Term Road Test

https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model...el-x-installing-the-hidden-trailer-hitch.html


Dan Edmunds' summarizes:

My trip to Flagstaff is complete. I successfully towed a teardrop trailer over 1,000 miles behind our 2016 Tesla Model X crossover SUV.

I'm not sure I ever want to do it again. . . .

. . . the Model X itself served up an abundance of power, stability and grade-climbing ability. The driving experience was effortless.

Effortless, that is, until it came time to charge the blasted thing. That's where this towing exercise turned into a real drag.

The problems are numerous: towing speed, range, recharge time and the physical incompatibility of Superchargers when you roll up with a trailer. The first three issues are interrelated. That last one stands alone.

Unless you're merely towing across town, these issues conspire to make the Model X a very poor tow vehicle. . . .

Total trip stats:

Towing distance: 1,003 miles (1,033 total)
Number of Supercharger stops: 11
Average stop time: 1 hour, 34 minutes
Average Energy consumption: 612 Wh/mile
Travel time: 40.25 hours (23.02 hours driving, 17.23 hours charging)
Average travel speed: 24.9 mph. . . .

Bottom line: the Tesla Model X is not something I'd recommend if you plan on towing. Any other vehicle with a 5,000-pound tow rating would be a less painless and ponderous alternative that wouldn't chew up nearly as much travel time. . . .

It was only after negative reports from people towing such as the above that Tesla realized that they needed to design SCs with some pull-through spaces (much the same situation as initially occurred in snowy areas, when Tesla finally realized that SC sites in such areas have to be designed to allow snowplow access).

Tesla Model X Range Impact When Towing

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-x-range-impact-towing/

Initial trailer pulling report - 90D and Airstream 22ft Bambi Sport

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thr...irstream-22ft-bambi-sport.74540/#post-1656295

 

[frontrangeleaf]

We tow our Lance 1475 with our diesel Q5 from Denver into the mountains when camping. The Q averages about 20 mpg towing at 65 mph. I love that we can drive a fun to drive, responsive car year round and tow our camper through the high country. Feels like having your cake and eating it too.

The Lance weighs about 3300# fully dressed, is 7’ wide and about 10’ tall including antennas and such. 20’ tip to tail. Their smallest lightest model. A camper for two.

At 20 mpg we have about a 400 mile range. More than enough for our purposes. We typically stop every 3-4 hours when on the road, and rarely drive more than 6 in one day.

You can color me skeptical that an EV will be able to replicate our experience with towing any time in my lifetime. Love to be wrong about that, but I’m not buying just yet.

Diesel is ~37 kWh/gal. A 740 kWh pack? Even downsizing a bit for efficiency, and not much given the aerodynamics, that’s a whomping big pack. Not for several generations at least.

My answer is to not ask my EV to do everything my other cars do. I don’t ask my roadster to go off road. Why would I ask my EV to tow?

 

[GRA]

GCR:

Could hydrogen fuel cells be seen as an upgrade in the future?

https://www.greencarreports.com/new...uel-cells-be-seen-as-an-upgrade-in-the-future

Hydrogen cars are struggling to gain a foothold in the expansion of cleaner and greener electric cars. However they may still have a role to play alongside today’s booming EV market.

Bentley, for example, revealed in an interview with British car magazine Autocar last spring that it is considering fuel cells to give its large SUVs greater towing range.

It is by no means certain that battery-electric is the right way to go,” Bentley engineering director Werner Tietz told that magazine. “One point we see is that some cars in our line-up—the Bentayga, for instance—is used for towing horseboxes and boats. With the current EV technology, that wouldn’t work. . . .”

 

[Titanium48]

I've also thought about what it would take for me to replace my other car with an EV. My Leaf has taken over 90% of my city driving and about 50% of my annual kilometers, but the rest are mostly long road trips, either towing a boat in summer or heading to the mountains to go skiing in winter. I've been estimating the requirements by comparing the expected highway fuel economy of a Leaf-sized ICE car (about 6 L/100km) to what my Outback uses towing my boat (12-15 L/100km), and figuring that I would want at least triple my 30 kWh Leaf's 135 km range at 110 km/h to allow charging to coincide with stops I'd be making anyways. That puts the needed battery at about 200 kWh, or 250 kWh after accounting for some reserve and fast charging slowing down significantly at higher SOC.

I don't expect that size of battery to be affordable any time soon, and when it is there will still be a substantial weight penalty. Charging that size of battery from 10% to 90% in a reasonable 30 - 40 minute time frame would also require at least 300 kW, which might be a challenge to deploy on large scale in the small towns where I, and every other EV driver making a similar trip, would want to charge. Level 2 charging at overnight stopover points could also be difficult, as 7.2 kW level 2 would take over 24 hours to deliver 200 kWh.

My conclusion is that manufacturers really need to reinvent the PHEV in the form of an SUV with a decent towing capacity.

 

[GRA]

<snip>

My conclusion is that manufacturers really need to reinvent the PHEV in the form of an SUV with a decent towing capacity.

That's the only realistic short-term PEV solution. Unfortunately, we continue to see PHEVs only being offered in 2WD - the new Escape Hybrid will be offered in both 2 or 4WD, but not the PHEV. We can only hope that a PHEV RAV4 will be offered both ways. Of course, keeping the weight down for towing requires a fairly small pack and AER, so you have to wonder if it's even worth going beyond an HEV.

 

[Zythryn]

I'm curious what people would need.

I told you.

Yes, you told me for your case. Other people have very different needs than you. I'm curious now to see what others besides you would want.
Thanks for your input.

He told you his case, because that was EXACTLY your question. “Calculate your ideal EV”.

Don’t bite his head off because he answered your question.

Back to your question, my ideal EV has 150 miles of range, and can recharge in my garage overnight.

I don’t think EVs will ever reach parity with ICE cars. To do so you would have to dramatically increase the local pollution they cause, remove the convenience of charging at home. You would also need to add toxic fumes coming out of the car, disallowing prewarming while in a garage or other enclose place.
Oh, increase the fuel price by a factor of 10.

Nope, for me, EVs will always be superior.

 

[WetEV]

... the needed battery at about 200 kWh, or 250 kWh after accounting for some reserve and fast charging slowing down significantly at higher SOC.

I don't expect that size of battery to be affordable any time soon, and when it is there will still be a substantial weight penalty.

I think you might be right about the weight penalty, but current battery cost is around $100 per kWh (VW and Tesla both hinted at this), and sub $50 is expected before 2030. Replacing the standard 125kW battery pack in 2030 might be $12k add on price, and half that in cost.

Yes, this would be for trucks and large SUV type vehicles only.

 

[Oilpan4]

My leaf with a 40kwh battery.

 

[goldbrick]

My leaf with a 40kwh battery.

That's pretty close for me as well. My 2017 S is the most comfortable and fun to drive car I own. I can still make trips to Denver and back on a single charge but I would need to be fully charged before leaving and would have to watch the weather and stick to my plan to be sure to make it home without charging. So...my Leaf with a 62kWh pack, for the same price :mrgreen: , with an auto-dimming mirror (just bought one) , hybrid heater, LED or some other better headlights. That would be about it.

 

[danrjones]

He told you his case, because that was EXACTLY your question. “Calculate your ideal EV”.

Don’t bite his head off because he answered your question.

No, that wasn't the problem. I don't mind disagreement or different ideas, I do demand politeness. I don't want to rehash so lets move forward.

 

[danrjones]

<snip>

My conclusion is that manufacturers really need to reinvent the PHEV in the form of an SUV with a decent towing capacity.

That's the only realistic short-term PEV solution. Unfortunately, we continue to see PHEVs only being offered in 2WD - the new Escape Hybrid will be offered in both 2 or 4WD, but not the PHEV. We can only hope that a PHEV RAV4 will be offered both ways. Of course, keeping the weight down for towing requires a fairly small pack and AER, so you have to wonder if it's even worth going beyond an HEV.

You guys might be right in the short term. But are there any phev trucks in development?

But it still seems like the goal should be to eventually replace everything.

Maybe it will take ultra capacitors or something we haven't invented yet.

But just two decades ago what would people say about an EV that charges at 350kW? EA is installing those now. If you get 200kWh packs, and rivian will be close to that, you might then go up to 500 kW. ATLIS or whatever they are called is making some interesting claims. A few companies have made noise about working in 500 kW chargers. That's half way to 1GW charging.