CHAdeMO disappointed by European Commission's fast chargin

[scottf200]

The European Commission Wants More Charging Stations For Europe, Lots More Charging Stations
http://insideevs.com/the-european-commission-wants-more-charging-stations-for-europe-lots-more-charging-stations/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Under this new proposal, all member countries would have a set minimum amout of electric charging points to build out, and that those recharging points would all have a common plug, which the Commission refers to as a 'Type 2' plug [CCS - DC J1772 Combo].

In response, the CHAdeMO association has issued a statement wanting to be included in the fast-charging portion of the program, as their CHAdeMO standardization was excluded in the DC fast charging specifications:

'We request the European Commission consider a dual charging system for DC fast charging with CHADeMO and CCS (combined charging system) that will allow use by the majority of current and future electric vehicles. From a cost point of view, there are significant commonalities between the two devices of more than 80%, with the only difference relating to communication protocol and charging gun.

The adoption of a technology-neutral approach not only reflects market realities but also ensures that multi-standard Combo2/CHAdeMO DC chargers are deployed. If this path is taken, Europe will leverage significant investment already made in the member states, and will be able to build a quicker and strong zero-emissions transportation network.'

Another article with various comments:
CHAdeMO 'disappointed' by European Commission's fast charging decision
http://green.autoblog.com/2013/01/28/chademo-disappointed-european-commissions-fast-charging/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The CHAdeMO Association says its "disappointed" that its fast-charging standard, backed by automakers such as Nissan, Toyota and Mitsubishi, was left out of the EC's specs for DC fast-charging. Why the hate, the group wondered, when there are more than 600 CHAdeMO chargers serving more than 20,000 CHAdeMO-equipped vehicles across the continent.

 

[garygid]

This does not appear to match the proposed USA SAE standard, right?

Apparently the power pins must be designed for around 70 amps each?

 

[scottf200]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62196" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Combined Charging System
While the target to have only one charging connector has been lost in that the world is split on their main grid system with Japan and North America to choose a single-phase connector on their 100-120/240 Volt grid (Type 1) while the rest of the world including China and Europe is opting for a connector with single-phase 230 Volt and three-phase 400 Volt grid access (Type 2). The SAE and ACEA are trying to avoid the situation for DC charging with a standardization that plans add DC wires to the existing AC connector types such that there is only one "global envelope" that fits all DC charging stations - for Type 2 the new housing is named Combo2.[24]

On the 15th International VDI-Congress of the Association of German Engineers the proposal of a "Combined Charging System" was unveiled on 12. October 2011 in Baden-Baden. Seven car makers (Audi, BMW, Daimler, Ford, General Motors, Porsche and Volkswagen) have agreed to introduce the Combined Charging System in mid-2012.[48][49] This defines a single connector pattern on the vehicle side that offers enough space for a Type 1 or Type 2 connector along with space for a two pin DC connector allowing up to 200 Ampere. The prototype implementations for up to 100 kW were shown on the EVS26 in Los Angeles in May 2012.[50]

The seven auto manufacturers have also agreed to use HomePlug GreenPHY as the communication protocol.[51] The prototype for the matching plug has been developed by Phoenix Contact with the goal to withstand 10,000 connect cycles.[52] The standardization proposal has been sent to the IEC in January 2011.[53] The request to use a PLC protocol for the Vehicle2Grid communication was flagged back in September 2009 in a joint presentation of BMW, Daimler and VW on California Air Resource Board ZEV Technology Symposium.[54] This is competing with the CAN Bus proposal from Japan (including CHAdeMO) and China (separate DC connector proposal) and notably none of their car manufacturers has signed up to the Combined Charging System so far. China had been involved in early stages of the development of the extra DC pins however.[52] A test drive will begin in the fall of 2012.[52]

[24] http://www.sae-na.it/public/allegati_news/RoleintheU.S.RoadmaptoSmartGridInteroperability.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[scottf200]

This presentation by Audi/BMW/Daimler/Porsche/VW about Type 2 is mentioned in hundreds of places all over the web. I was able to find it on the way back machine. "Combined Charging System" include type 1 and 2 as various resources point out. See type 1 and 2 "definitions" in previous link.

http://greentransportation.info/ev-fast-charging-whether-standardized-or-not
Combined Charging: Current Status of the Combined Charging System (November 8, 2011) - http://www.ishavsveien.no/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Current_status_of_the_Combined_Charging_System_v1.2.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; [bad link: use one below] - is a presentation put together by Audi/BMW/Daimler/Porsche/VW (the German carmakers) discusses the plans for the combined charging connector.

* Various "regional" connectors will be combined into one global standard. What this means is that European electric cars use a J1772 connector with a different physical shape than the J1772 connectors in the U.S. Further Asian cars have multiple charge ports for their J1772 and CHAdeMO variants. The goal is to have one resulting connector to handle both normal and fast charging.
* European electrical systems are a mix of 1-phase and 3-phase AC.
* The majority of OEM's are moving towards the Combined Charging System, hence in a few years it will be the dominant charging connector in the public
* The single combined charging connector will satisfy normal household power outlets, AC 1 phase, AC 3 phase, DC low speed and DC high speed

Current_status_of_the_Combined_Charging_System_v1.2
http://web.archive.org/web/20120426054301/http://www.ishavsveien.no/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Current_status_of_the_Combined_Charging_System_v1.2.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[TonyWilliams]

It's interesting that previous PR stunts (and let's face it, everything so far with Frankenplug is a PR stunt) mentioned that the two standards, German and GM, would join up in 2017.

But, I honestly don't know how that can possibly happen with a single phase standard for GM, and a three phase one for German auto makers. I suspect that the standard really means they will never be interchangable except for a hardware change.

In other words, you've been driving your Korean built GM Spark around the USA all excited about your new job in Germany. It was always a drag driving the car beyond its one charge range, since there were so few places to actually hook up to a Frankenplug.

But, when your Spark gets shipped to Germany, you find out the Frankenplug is not even the same thing unless you spend beau coup bucks to convert it. Heck, you could have driven your neighbor's LEAF in either place with CHAdeMO plugs.

I have to hand it to the Frankenplug promoters in EU; they were able to pull off what their comrades at GM could not... squeeze out CHAdeMO.

 

[scottf200]

I have to hand it to the Frankenplug promoters in EU; they were able to pull off what their comrades at GM could not... squeeze out CHAdeMO.

I think it is clear from the above text and presentation that Audi / BMW / Daimler / Porsche / VW also wanted a single combo DC plug that worked similarly and has many future features. Note that type 2 includes single and three phase.

 

[garygid]

REALLY STUPID to not have a worldwide standard.

But, humanoids all throughout the galaxy are
not known for their sharing or cooperating.

 

[scottf200]

REALLY STUPID to not have a worldwide standard.

That is what the Combined Charging System evolved into being. Lot of presentations on this: https://www.google.com/search?q="combo+2"+european+charging

EVS26 Combined Charging – the universal charging system Design Achievements

Compact design features
The charging inlet in the Combined Charging System has an extremely compact design, allowing it to be easily fitted into conventional fuel filler doors of most cars. The existing charge socket (SAE J-1772™), designed to accommodate the 1-phase power supply commonly found in the U.S., has been extended by two pins for high-performance DC charging. The special feature of the SAE J-1772™ plug for AC charging and Combo 1 plug for high-performance DC charging is their compatibility with the new compact charging inlet. [aka Type 1]

In Europe, on the other hand, the infrastructure is predominantly 3-phase, and the Combined Charging System builds on the existing Type 2 charge socket (IEC 62196-2). Two pins have also been incorporated in the Type 2 plug to create the IEC 62196-3 Combo 2 plug for high-performance DC charging in Europe.

The Combined Charging System was designed so that it can be deployed in all international vehicle markets. Its developers have succeeded in creating a uniform standard with identical electrical systems, charge controllers, package dimensions and safety mechanisms for every market. This means that the vehicle and the charging equipment can communicate the same way, enable global interoperability of the system and maximize the integration into future smart grids.

Charge communication integrates electric vehicles into the “smart grid”
In coming years it is expected that smart grids will become established in the energy market. These intelligent networks will control electrical devices to accommodate the fluctuating availability of renewable energy sources. Ideally, electric vehicles should be recharged when a surplus of wind and solar power is available. The Combined Charging System is also capable of interfacing with these intelligent networks.

The charge communication mechanism has been designed for integration in the smart grid so that it already meets many future requirements:
* Bilateral control of the charging operation by the vehicle and infrastructure
* Convenient charging options, such as remote charging even when the driver is not present
* Certified payment and billing systems
* Guaranteed electrical safety and data privacy
* Interoperability of certified value-adding servicesfor electric vehicles (e. g., when vehicles are used in car pools).

The charge communication systems standard of the future is currently being developed by the International ISO/IEC 15118 Working Group as well as in SAE Standardization and includes contributions from nearly all global automotive companies.

An efficient and reliable means of communication between cars and the power grid is the prerequisite for the successful market launch of electric vehicles. The SAE Communication Task Force has adopted the most practical solution to use the existing connector for communication: Powerline communication, which runs through the charge cable, is a technology that is utilized for both AC and DC charging. No additional hardware, such as the ones used for RFID or radio-based communication, is needed. This reduces infrastructure complexity and charging technology costs.

The Combined Charging System is designed to be deployed worldwide
All in all, the Combined Charging System technology can be applied to overcome the variety of regional systems. It is technically mature and will be rolled out in 2013. Vehicles equipped with AC charging in compliance with the Combined Charging System are in the market. Vehicles with ultra-fast DC charging based on the Combined Charging System Standard have been announced by BMW, GM and Volkswagen for introduction in 2013.

 

[TonyWilliams]

REALLY STUPID to not have a worldwide standard.

That is what the Combined Charging System evolved into being.

It hasn't evolved into anything yet but a steady marketing campaign, while CHAdeMO is an existing worldwide standard with 2000 chargers in the ground and 70,000 cars capable of using them.

For 2013, CHAdeMO is likely to double to 4000, with another 20,000 -30,000 cars that can use them.

Frankenplug will offer 2 pure compliance cars (GM and VW) in extremely limited numbers, and BMW with a high priced EV that doesn't have a chance to sell in the volumes of LEAF alone.

And, we all know how many Frankenplugs there are in the world for public consumption: ZERO.

The charging inlet in the Combined Charging System has an extremely compact design, allowing it to be easily fitted into conventional fuel filler doors of most cars.

Not a factor for companies that don't use converted cars for EVs. Of course, a Volt uses two energy filler ports!!! Tesla, by the way, uses a much smaller AC/DC combined plug that charges much faster than Frankenplug... why not adopt that?

The Combined Charging System was designed so that it can be deployed in all international vehicle markets.

All talk, while CHAdeMO is, and has been, just doing, WORLDWIDE.

Its developers have succeeded in creating a uniform standard with identical electrical systems, charge controllers, package dimensions and safety mechanisms for every market. This means that the vehicle and the charging equipment can communicate the same way, enable global interoperability of the system and maximize the integration into future smart grids.

Ya, so does CHAdeMO. Works everywhere in the world. Three phase, or single phase. Any voltage, 200 and above.

Charge communication integrates electric vehicles into the “smart grid”

This is one thing I'm not sure I even want. They'll be turning off my car from charging in peak times, but allowing all the air conditioners to run ad nauseum. Maybe I need my car charged more than I need AC ?

And, I know it might not be apparent to some, but a smart meter can be put on CHAdeMO.

The Combined Charging System is designed to be deployed worldwide

Yep, designed. CHAdeMO has been there, done that, WORLDWIDE.

Vehicles with ultra-fast DC charging based on the Combined Charging System Standard have been announced by BMW, GM and Volkswagen for introduction in 2013.

So, cars that charge at the same or less speed of CHAdeMO equipped 48kW LEAFs are "ultra-fast". I wonder what a 90-120kW Tesla is?

I can't discount how seemingly persistent this standard by media release has been for the standard with no cars.

 

[ydnas7]

Combo2 or Frankenplug's real issue is that its the plug for companies that don't like EVs. So its primary purpose is to delay Chaedemo. Type 2 seems to refer Mennekes in both normal and frankenplug variant.

realistically both Chademo and Tesla supercharger are the USA defacto standards for their respective power levels and that won't charge

Chademo is also the standard for Japan

China has its own standard which seems to be inspired by Mennekes and Chademo

Europe will go to AC Mennekes

but this seems to be what is being proposed http://dbtcev.fr/en/2013/01/24/dbt-cev-welcomes-europes-new-legislation-regarding-ev-charging-stations-standardization-starting-2014/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Technical requirements by 2020 for each Member State regarding EV charging infrastructure compatibility:

Normal and accelerated charging stations (from 1 to 8 hours average charging time*) will have up to December 31st 2015 to feature a “Type 2” connector.

Fast charging stations (charging in 30 minutes maximum*) will have to feature before December 31st 2017 either an AC connector or a “Combo 2” DC-type connector (the latest standard will be agreed on by the 2014 year).

which i parse as 22kw Mennekes up to end 2015, then AC 43kw Mennekes OR Mennekes based Combo2 up to end 2017. as AC 43kW Mennekes is so much cheaper than Combo2 frankenplug, i predict that the majority will be AC 43kw Mennekes.

so Chademo will continue it rollout in Japan, USA, and EU. Until frankenplug automakers want to make EVs the market will buy Chademo Nissans or Mennekes Renaults or supercharge Tesla.

 

[ydnas7]

CHAdeMO has been there, done that, WORLDWIDE.

agree

the worldwide standard is CHAdeMO

Combo2 frankenplug is better described as a worldwide non standard as no one wants to sell frankenplug vehicles, and frankenplugs differ significantly on a geographic basis.

 

[TonyWilliams]

CHAdeMO has been there, done that, WORLDWIDE.

agree

the worldwide standard is CHAdeMO

Combo2 frankenplug is better described as a worldwide non standard as no one wants to sell frankenplug vehicles, and frankenplugs differ significantly on a geographic basis.

And that's why it's all media. The Frankenplug is anything but standard, nor worldwide.

They conveniently don't name "regional" players like CHAdeMO that are standard everywhere in the world; a real standard, meaning the same EVERYWHERE. Honestly, there are people who will believe this crap, hook, line and sinker.

Of course, I don't doubt for a minute we will get some Frankenplugs here, but I ABSOLUTELY do not see any compliance car maker considering funding and installing them, leaving only BMW to foot the bill (or the usual push for government regulation, as GM tried unsuccessfully in California, or pure government funding, which I see as a distant possibility).

There still are many open questions; what will Toyota eventually do? Will Tesla provide Frankenplugs for Europe? Or CHAdeMO for Japan?

 

[scottf200]

Luckily the ISO/IEC and SAE are thinking about long term goals and wider needs. They are not just looking at current cars out or within a year and they are looking at more than basic charging (ie. smart grid with SAE J2931). Professional organizations with long term vision.

Combined Charging the universal charging system

Charging Communication for DC Charging
The charging communication between vehicle and charger is standardized in ISO/IEC 15118 in close cooperation with SAE.

Goal
* One communication system for all charging modes, world-wide:
* Requirements and functionality
* Transmission technology
* SW protocols

Solution
* PLC-based communication ISO/IEC 15118 for all charging modes applying IEEE 1901 HomePlug Greenphy, IPV6 and data security

Combined Charging System
* Low Complexity and Cost Optimized: Cost efficient re-use of multiple parts

Benefits
* One inlet
* No extra design required
* DC re-uses the complete AC communication and adds only DC specific data
* Extensive use of same parts

 

[TonyWilliams]

Luckily the ISO/IEC and SAE are thinking about long term goals and wider needs. They are not just looking at current cars out or within a year and they are looking at more than basic charging (ie. smart grid with SAE J2931). Professional organizations with long term vision.

Right, CHAdeMO is a bunch of clowns, and not really professional. What a morony.

CHAdeMO has Vehicle to Grid, and virtually every other option except the "easy to convert oil cars with a petrol filler hole". I don't see that as a plus for consumers. The smart grid stuff can be applied to ANY electric component. Sorry Charlie, but this is nothing more than "we don't want competition".

As somebody who looked up to SAE as a model, I don't see this as anything more than politics. Never before, that I can recall, has so much effort been spent on PR by SAE and their taskmasters at GM. Name me ANY other standard SAE has worked on that required endless PR and press releases, with no hardware or cars? It doesn't exist.

I'm not so concerned about what happens in Germany, since even what is proposed isn't compatible with what GM wants here. There will be many thousand more CHAdeMOs before these "GM/SAE professionals" get their act together.

Quite simply, for the USA market, this is strictly a roadblock attempt by GM to slow down Nissan.

 

[scottf200]

I'm not so concerned about what happens in Germany, since even what is proposed isn't compatible with what GM wants here. There will be many thousand more CHAdeMOs before these "GM/SAE professionals" get their act together.

Most of this thread is about European Commission's and how the ISO/IEC want the CCS (combined charging system) as well. Your remarks are clearly slanted try to give your narrow view and conspiracy theory instead of looking at the bigger EV movement picture and ALL the parties involved across the world. There are many non SAE presentations on all this that are being ignored. Seriously Nissan has done a lot to slow itself down and does not need much help. They have lost LEAF dedicated customers because of their actions/inactions. CHAdeMO will be a standard ... in Japan.

 

[ydnas7]

Frankenplug is far from being a global standard, its more of a global non standard

but anyway, currently Chademo is being used for both vehicle to house http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/NEWS/2012/_STORY/120530-01-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and Chademo charger to business http://www.jfe-eng.co.jp/en/en_product/pdf/RAPIDAS-R_English_a4.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Currently there are only 3 car companies with the intent and the means to make EVs successful

Nissan, Tesla and Renault

non of them use frankenplug, Nissan has adopted Chademo, Tesla scorns bad design, Renault is big into AC.

Nissan took 3 1/2 years to build their Smyrna battery factory. Until a vehicle company has committed to that type of endeavor, they are not serious about EVs or lack the resources. (with the exception of Tesla who is taking a commodity cell approach) Even Mitsubishi i outsold the FFE or equivalents last month.

 

[SanDust]

Given current battery technology and cost DC fast charging is irrelevant. Before a DC charger makes sense you need a range of at least 250 miles. Tesla offers an EV with that range but it's unaffordable. Nissan offers an affordable EV but its range is so limited DC charging for longer trips is impractical.

As battery technology improves and we see affordable EVs with longer ranges, DC charging will need substantial government assistance. Because countries will defend their economic interests there will be three standards. CHAdeMO in Japan. The SAE standard in the US and the EU. And the Chinese standard in China.

 

[GregH]

Before a DC charger makes sense you need a range of at least 250 miles.

Yeah, those of us with only 80 miles of range would never want to travel more than 40 miles from home.

 

[ydnas7]

I'm not so concerned about what happens in Germany, since even what is proposed isn't compatible with what GM wants here. There will be many thousand more CHAdeMOs before these "GM/SAE professionals" get their act together.

Most of this thread is about European Commission's and how the ISO/IEC want the CCS (combined charging system) as well...... CHAdeMO will be a standard ... in Japan.

Chademo is developed to provide what the frankenplugs pretend to aspire to. I'm not an electrical engineer, but I wildly speculate that Korea has a preference towards to Chademo because of its energy seriously more mature/better developed 2 way energy flow.

When the auto industry aligned to Combo plugs (in all various formats) they excluded themselves from serious EV deployment for another 4 years.

Concurrently with the auto industry aligning to Combo plugs (in all various formats) is a continuing lack of investment in cell manufacture/battery making capacity which realistically takes 4 years from an announcement (or even specific EV models). An optimist might see this as a sign that in 4 years time the automotive industry will get serious about EVs. I see it as sequential delays, at least 4 years + 4 years (ie 8 years) to get to where Nissan is today.

I don't doubt there is massive political imperative to support local standards, particularly if there is going to government support for rollout, but until any other vehicle manufacturer gets fair dinkum about batteries, Combo plugs seem irrelevant to EVs for the rest of this decade.

Excluding Ghosn and Musk, Electrified vehicles equals PHEV, and PHEVs don't seem to use DC charging, because that adds a further variable to battery life guarantee.

For EVs the standards are Chademo Nissans or Mennekes Renaults or Supercharge Teslas.

 

[scottf200]

For EVs the standards are Chademo Nissans or Mennekes Renaults or Supercharge Teslas.

Your recent graphic didn't even highlight the EU which this thread is about.

You mentioned Mennekes but that is part of CCS and is the Combo 2. See https://www.google.com/search?q=Mennekes+%22combo+2%22" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;