CHAdeMO disappointed by European Commission's fast chargin

[RegGuheert]

Name me ANY other standard SAE has worked on that required endless PR and press releases, with no hardware or cars? It doesn't exist.

42V weak (stop/start) hybrid systems. They have been pushing that for AT LEAST 15 years now. I have not seen a single car yet. I'm convinced it was all to try to hold off the REAL hybrids that were on their way from Honda and Toyota. Look how successful they were in stopping that! :roll:

 

[TonyWilliams]

Name me ANY other standard SAE has worked on that required endless PR and press releases, with no hardware or cars? It doesn't exist.

42V weak (stop/start) hybrid systems. They have been pushing that for AT LEAST 15 years now. I have not seen a single car yet. I'm convinced it was all to try to hold off the REAL hybrids that were on their way from Honda and Toyota. Look how successful they were in stopping that! :roll:

Excellent point! I had forgotten about that.

 

[Nashco]

Name me ANY other standard SAE has worked on that required endless PR and press releases, with no hardware or cars? It doesn't exist.

42V weak (stop/start) hybrid systems. They have been pushing that for AT LEAST 15 years now. I have not seen a single car yet. I'm convinced it was all to try to hold off the REAL hybrids that were on their way from Honda and Toyota. Look how successful they were in stopping that! :roll:

GM sold a mild hybrid truck that used a 36/42V battery almost ten years ago. Not sure how it related to SAE proposals, just trying to inform those who weren't aware.

Bryce

 

[RegGuheert]

GM sold a mild hybrid truck that used a 36/42V battery almost ten years ago. Not sure how it related to SAE proposals, just trying to inform those who weren't aware.

Bryce

Thanks, Byce! And welcome to the forum!

I didn't know about that truck before. Do you have a link describing it and discussing production volumes?

Still, this fact does not change the point: GM has unsuccessfully tried to use the SAE standards committee in the past to try to stave off foreign competition.

 

[Nashco]

GM sold a mild hybrid truck that used a 36/42V battery almost ten years ago. Not sure how it related to SAE proposals, just trying to inform those who weren't aware.

Bryce

Thanks, Byce! And welcome to the forum!

I didn't know about that truck before. Do you have a link describing it and discussing production volumes?

Still, this fact does not change the point: GM has unsuccessfully tried to use the SAE standards committee in the past to try to stave off foreign competition.

That's your opinion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Silverado#Hybrid" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I believe you're misunderstanding the intent of SAE specs and how they relate to product development. The SAE contributors are volunteers and intend to provide guidelines, not requirements. Nissan and many others made a choice to move ahead with the solution they believe would meet their requirements, goals, timelines, etc. Others have opted to use something different. I have a car with chademo and look forward to having one with a combo plug in the near future. Oregon and Washington have tons of chademo chargers around relatively speaking and I'm curious to see how things shake out for a transition (or not, as is possible). I think both have their merits, but every time I use a chademo plug I think, "We can do better!" so I'm happy to see evolution.

Bryce

 

[TonyWilliams]

I think both have their merits, but every time I use a chademo plug I think, "We can do better!" so I'm happy to see evolution.

Bryce

I sincerely hope that we transition to the "next thing" beyond Frankenplug or the current CHAdeMO.

The thought that anything about either standard is grossly superior to the other is absurd. The simple fact that the SAE recommendations originally suggested that the Frankenplug standard should be compatible with existing standards and then did just the opposite... I personally hope it fails miserably.

 

[walterbays]

The simple fact that the SAE recommendations originally suggested that the Frankenplug standard should be compatible with existing standards and then did just the opposite... I personally hope it fails miserably.

David Balto, in the FTC Bureau of Competition gave a speech entitled "Standard Setting in a Network Economy."

http://www.ftc.gov/speeches/other/standardsetting.shtm

Standard setting is typically, but not invariably procompetitive. ... Standard setting can also provide a forum for collusion, either tacit or explicit. For example, a competitor or group of competitors may attempt to select a standard designed to preclude the use or acceptance of another's product. ... Where competitors collude to keep a product, particularly an innovative product, from reaching the market competition is harmed. Consumers' choices have been circumscribed by horizontal activity, and the enforcement agencies should step in.

 

[GerryAZ]

The main problem I see with the SAE "standard" is power line carrier (PLC). With high power switching electronics at both ends of the cable, SAE should not even consider PLC for communication between the car and charger. Think about what happens if the car tells the charger to stop and the charger does not stop because noise on the power lines from the high power switching electronics interferes with the communications signals. The separate CAN bus is much more reliable.

Gerry

 

[scottf200]

The main problem I see with the SAE "standard" is power line carrier (PLC). With high power switching electronics at both ends of the cable, SAE should not even consider PLC for communication between the car and charger. Think about what happens if the car tells the charger to stop and the charger does not stop because noise on the power lines from the high power switching electronics interferes with the communications signals. The separate CAN bus is much more reliable. Gerry

And yet the it was the solution by IEC as well. Certainly they have considered all this. Google search: https://www.google.com/search?q=iec+plc+charging+15118" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
* PLC-based communication ISO/IEC 15118 for all charging modes applying IEEE 1901 HomePlug Greenphy, IPV6 and data security

 

[Ingineer]

This is all the essentially same B/S that the Consumer Electronics industry did with HDMI. They should have just used standard RJ-45/Cat-5 with Ethernet PHY. No special (high dollar) cables needed, and then you can run 100 meters, plus easy to terminate, many suppliers, etc. Instead they developed an expensive new proprietary standard that must be licensed.

At least now you can get low-cost transceivers to convert HDMI 1.5 to Ethernet Phy (and back).

I suspect whatever happens, eventually there will only be one standard, and there will be (expensive) converters for legacy use.

-Phil

 

[ydnas7]

I suspect whatever happens, eventually there will only be one standard, and there will be (expensive) converters for legacy use.

-Phil

Tesla's Supercharger network seems to indicate that a single company can sustain a propriety plug indefinitely.
because Tesla knows that no government or standards body will standardize on their plug.

 

[davewill]

Tesla's Supercharger network seems to indicate that a single company can sustain a propriety plug indefinitely.
because Tesla knows that no government or standards body will standardize on their plug.

I'll buy that when they succeed in doing so "indefinitely". I suspect that Tesla will eventually have to offer adapters/converters for some of the other DC charging standards. They had to supply a J1772 adapter for AC charging, after all. A DC adapter is not needed now because there just aren't enough DCQCs out there for them to worry about.

 

[ydnas7]

Tesla's Supercharger network seems to indicate that a single company can sustain a propriety plug indefinitely.
because Tesla knows that no government or standards body will standardize on their plug.

I'll buy that when they succeed in doing so "indefinitely". I suspect that Tesla will eventually have to offer adapters/converters for some of the other DC charging standards. They had to supply a J1772 adapter for AC charging, after all. A DC adapter is not needed now because there just aren't enough DCQCs out there for them to worry about.

I'ld expect a Chademo to Tesla adapter around the time of Tesla's Japanese model S launch this year.

but that won't stop Tesla continuing its Supercharger rollout. Its financed by Tesla's marketing budget.

Even though Tesla will continue with their powered by sunlight superchargers, their cars will be promiscuous enough to use any available source, after all, they're happy with a NEMA 14-50 connector.

 

[scottf200]

Looks like REMA is ready.

http://rema-ev.com/dc-fast-charge/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Electrical Features:
* 150A 600V DC
* Maximum charge performance: 90 kW
* Design according to SAE J1772™ and IEC 62196-3 draft standards

With locations in the USA and Europe (Germany)
http://rema-ev.com/find-rema/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[TonyWilliams]

Looks like REMA is ready.

Hmmmm. REMA? Where have I heard that name before?

Oh, ya, the company that makes J1772 nozzles that overheat (and one that welded itself on my car). Oh, goodie!! These guys should be awesome with 150 amps.

The only thing on the map that you posted is their regional offices. Whoopie. More standard by advertisement.

 

[scottf200]

ABB First To Bring Combined Charging System, And Multistandard To Market
13-Feb-2013
http://insideevs.com/abb-first-to-bring-combined-charging-system-and-multistandard-to-market/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

“The new multistandard functionality will be available in Europe in the second quarter of 2013 including a special CCS version for car dealerships, followed by a targeted launch in the USA in the second half of 2013. The expansion of the ABB fast charging portfolio brings together European standardization and fast charging technology reducing infrastructure complexity and dramatically improving charging compatibility across all EV brands. “