Charging Pattern for Phoenix Leafs with Bar Loss

[Stoaty]

I am trying to gather more information about the charging pattern for the Leafs in Phoenix and immediately surrounding area which have lost a capacity bar to further our understanding of how this may affect capacity loss. Obviously, I am only interested in the charging pattern up until the time first bar was lost. Information hopefully will include:

1) Percentage of time charging to 100% and 80% (e.g., charge to 80% about 75% of the time, the rest of the time to 100%)
2) Average time car sits at 100% charge per day (e.g., if charging finishes at midnight and you leave at 7:00 AM for work that would be 7 hours)
3) Average depth of discharge if known (e.g., 12 bars to 2 bars or 100% to 30% if have Gid meter)
4) Average time per day car sits at low SOC and what SOC that is (e.g., 40% on Gid meter or 4 bars for 14 hours per day)
5) Any long periods of time when car sat at 100% SOC (e.g., Azdre/opossum car sat at 100% SOC for month of May, 2011)
6) QC frequency
7) Any other information about charging that may be relevant to the analysis

Note: please only post to this thread if your Leaf is in Phoenix metro area and has lost a capacity bar (you should also be listed in the Wiki and have adequate data for analysis of other factors; there are 26 Leafs that fit these criteria). Save comments and other extraneous information for other forum threads. Thanks!

 

[jspearman]

While I think this is a worthwhile exercise, I would caution Leaf drivers here about releasing too much information if you think you might be part of a lawsuit at some point. Perhaps all that data is easily accessible to Nissan and there is no expectation of privacy if you hit the YES button at startup, but I prefer to hold most of my data until I get a sense of Nissan's plans to address this issue. I also have no desire.

As we've seen from people like Orient, they can twist any data into what they want to hear. Lawyers will be much the same.

 

[LEAFfan]

Respectfully, but this is just beating a dead horse. It has been well established and documented that there are many drivers here that babied their packs which included their charging habits, but still lost 1 or 2 bars. So the biggest factor remains high ambient heat over time.

 

[Stoaty]

Respectfully, but this is just beating a dead horse. It has been well established and documented that there are many drivers here that babied their packs which included their charging habits, but still lost 1 or 2 bars. So the biggest factor remains high ambient heat over time.

Of course the biggest factor is high ambient heat. I was hoping to gather data to determine whether charging patterns were an additive or perhaps synergistic factor. If the Leaf owners in Phoenix aren't interested, it isn't a problem for me, since I don't have significant capacity loss. There is a big difference between "many babied their packs" and quantitative data that might show show whether charging pattern contributes say 30%, 10% or no discernible effect. Things aren't always as they seem. I was surprised to see that miles driven per month had a significant correlation with capacity loss per month for Phoenix Leafs, where temperature exposure was similar:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&start=2792" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Since that suggests that charging pattern, high SOC over time, increased depth of discharge, more cycling of the pack, etc. might be factors I thought it would be worthwhile to investigate this further. Again, if there is no interest in collecting and analyzing the data, not a problem.

 

[Herm]

the Blink "studies" show 60% of Phoenix owners charge to 100% at home, all the time

 

[mark1313]

I was told doing my 2 hour leaf-education to let it charge to 100% @ the dealership, and if I needed it before the full 100% charge, that it was ok to disconect the charger and drive off..
Nissan should change their Ads and make it very specific, not only in their Ads but @ the dealership where you buy the car, that they want to see only 80% charging done..
I bought the car for long drives to work, where 100% charging is needed..I do charge now to 80% on non work days..

I think the first 8 months I did all 100% charging every 2 to 3 days as I was instructed to do..
Now I for-go using the AC on workdays trying to keep battery temps down from 7..I must say Im trying to save the battery, but Im not a happy camper driving in the heat..

 

[tbleakne]

>>> So the biggest factor remains high ambient heat over time.

Of course the biggest factor is high ambient heat. I was hoping to gather data to determine whether charging patterns were an additive or perhaps synergistic factor. If the Leaf owners in Phoenix aren't interested, it isn't a problem for me, since I don't have significant capacity loss. There is a big difference between "many babied their packs" and quantitative data that might show show whether charging pattern contributes say 30%, 10% or no discernible effect. Things aren't always as they seem. I was surprised to see that miles driven per month had a significant correlation with capacity loss per month for Phoenix Leafs, where temperature exposure was similar:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&start=2792" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Since that suggests that charging pattern, high SOC over time, increased depth of discharge, more cycling of the pack, etc. might be factors I thought it would be worthwhile to investigate this further. Again, if there is no interest in collecting and analyzing the data, not a problem.

I agree folks should care about the effect of their charging behavior and the other factors you mention, and more data could give us some useful guidance that could help in climates warm but less severe than AZ.

It is clear that charging to 80% rather than 100% does not offer significant protection against temperatures as high as experienced in AZ.

This Spring in only modestly warm conditions (mid 80s high, 60s low) I proved that regularly charging to 90% instead of 100% did not protect against loss. However, this regime might have reduced my loss somewhat.

Now, with my garage experiencing max temperatures of 95-97 F and minimum temps of 75 F, I am stopping the charge much lower, at 45% to 65% as measured by the Gid meter on nights before days when I am planning only short errands.
It is hard to be sure, but it appears this discipline may be partially mitigating the higher temperatures, because my loss rate has not accelerated.

One problem is that, given the high temperature dependence, it will be difficult to separate out other effects without accurate values for the actual temperature of the battery packs. Hopefully we will be able to access this data with the LeafScan when it becomes available.

 

[WetEV]

Now, with my garage experiencing max temperatures of 95-97 F and minimum temps of 75 F, I am stopping the charge much lower, at 45% to 65% as measured by the Gid meter on nights before days when I am planning only short errands.

I suggest a swamp cooler for the garage.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

While I think this is a worthwhile exercise, I would caution Leaf drivers here about releasing too much information if you think you might be part of a lawsuit at some point. Perhaps all that data is easily accessible to Nissan and there is no expectation of privacy if you hit the YES button at startup, but I prefer to hold most of my data until I get a sense of Nissan's plans to address this issue. I also have no desire.

As we've seen from people like Orient, they can twist any data into what they want to hear. Lawyers will be much the same.

Nissan has been recording that info since mile 1. you cant hide from them. they made sure of that

 

[nrgrevolution]

Phoenix,AZ here. 14 months of ownership, 12,500 miles, and NO lost bars yet. I did a 100% charge tonight, followed by a long run to 3 bars. This being the first 100% charge since Nissan did my annual battery check 2 month's ago and zero'd all my charger settings (didn't realize right away) after the software update. OK, here we go....

1.99.5% of the time is 80%

2.Hardly ever gets 100% and has sat at 100% for a total of a 48 hours, max.

3. 3 bars ( rarely below 2 bars, maybe 20 events below 3 bars )

4. 4 hours a day at 3 bars before start of charge. 5 times a week.

5. Nadda

6. Zero QC's

7. Charge with the trickle charge at work 5 times a week from 7pm to 3am outside. Once a week in insulated garage on blink at midnight.

The wife and I BABY the battery ( besides living in a desert! ) limit trips in heat of day, park in shaded area's, at works it sits on lite colored concrete. I'm a hyper miler, and the wife drives ez also. We try to charge to 80% and drive to 30% without topping off (most of the time)

 

[Herm]

Phoenix,AZ here. 14 months of ownership, 12,500 miles, and NO lost bars yet.

Thanks for the report.. I believe you are the second person to report no loss in Phoenix at this time. Charging to only 80% and you being a hypermiler have to help.

 

[Volusiano]

Phoenix,AZ here. 14 months of ownership, 12,500 miles, and NO lost bars yet.

Thanks for the report.. I believe you are the second person to report no loss in Phoenix at this time. Charging to only 80% and you being a hypermiler have to help.

Who was the first person in Phoenix who reported no loss? Can you provide the link to that post? Thanks.

 

[Stoaty]

Phoenix,AZ here. 14 months of ownership, 12,500 miles, and NO lost bars yet. I did a 100% charge tonight, followed by a long run to 3 bars. This being the first 100% charge since Nissan did my annual battery check 2 month's ago and zero'd all my charger settings (didn't realize right away) after the software update. OK, here we go....

1.99.5% of the time is 80%

2.Hardly ever gets 100% and has sat at 100% for a total of a 48 hours, max.

3. 3 bars ( rarely below 2 bars, maybe 20 events below 3 bars )

4. 4 hours a day at 3 bars before start of charge. 5 times a week.

5. Nadda

6. Zero QC's

7. Charge with the trickle charge at work 5 times a week from 7pm to 3am outside. Once a week in insulated garage on blink at midnight.

The wife and I BABY the battery ( besides living in a desert! ) limit trips in heat of day, park in shaded area's, at works it sits on lite colored concrete. I'm a hyper miler, and the wife drives ez also. We try to charge to 80% and drive to 30% without topping off (most of the time)

Thanks for the data point. I hope you beat the odds! However, based on your monthly mileage and an analysis of Phoenix Leafs that have lost a capacity bar, you are still on schedule to lose a capacity bar at 15 months (you are at about 1% capacity loss per month based on Leafs that have lost a bar):

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&start=2792" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What is the average temperature of your garage in the summer?

Let us know if/when you lose the first bar.

PS

 

[OrientExpress]

As we've seen from people like Orient, they can twist any data into what they want to hear.

That astute observation can be applied to everyone that has "analyzed" the battery issue on this forum.

 

[TickTock]

80%:55% ; 100%:45% 1) Percentage of time charging to 100% and 80% (e.g., charge to 80% about 75% of the time, the rest of the time to 100%)
~1 hour average (guess - now I end the charge before leaving didn't at first) 2) Average time car sits at 100% charge per day (e.g., if charging finishes at midnight and you leave at 7:00 AM for work that would be 7 hours)
9 to 0 bars (now) 3) Average depth of discharge if known (e.g., 12 bars to 2 bars or 100% to 30% if have Gid meter)
~6 hours ~20gids 4) Average time per day car sits at low SOC and what SOC that is (e.g., 40% on Gid meter or 4 bars for 14 hours per day)
no 5) Any long periods of time when car sat at 100% SOC (e.g., Azdre/opossum car sat at 100% SOC for month of May, 2011)
once 6) QC frequency
garage stays hot all night (>100F) (until recently) 7) Any other information about charging that may be relevant to the analysis

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Phoenix,AZ here. 14 months of ownership, 12,500 miles, and NO lost bars yet. I did a 100% charge tonight, followed by a long run to 3 bars. This being the first 100% charge since Nissan did my annual battery check 2 month's ago and zero'd all my charger settings (didn't realize right away) after the software update. OK, here we go....

1.99.5% of the time is 80%

2.Hardly ever gets 100% and has sat at 100% for a total of a 48 hours, max.

3. 3 bars ( rarely below 2 bars, maybe 20 events below 3 bars )

4. 4 hours a day at 3 bars before start of charge. 5 times a week.

5. Nadda

6. Zero QC's

7. Charge with the trickle charge at work 5 times a week from 7pm to 3am outside. Once a week in insulated garage on blink at midnight.

The wife and I BABY the battery ( besides living in a desert! ) limit trips in heat of day, park in shaded area's, at works it sits on lite colored concrete. I'm a hyper miler, and the wife drives ez also. We try to charge to 80% and drive to 30% without topping off (most of the time)

what percentage of bolded does this constitute as far as your total charging time and i need to clarify, you are charging at night?

 

[leafkabob]

Phoenix,AZ here. 14 months of ownership, 12,500 miles, and NO lost bars yet. I did a 100% charge tonight, followed by a long run to 3 bars. This being the first 100% charge since Nissan did my annual battery check 2 month's ago and zero'd all my charger settings (didn't realize right away) after the software update. OK, here we go....

1.99.5% of the time is 80%

2.Hardly ever gets 100% and has sat at 100% for a total of a 48 hours, max.

3. 3 bars ( rarely below 2 bars, maybe 20 events below 3 bars )

4. 4 hours a day at 3 bars before start of charge. 5 times a week.

5. Nadda

6. Zero QC's

7. Charge with the trickle charge at work 5 times a week from 7pm to 3am outside. Once a week in insulated garage on blink at midnight.

The wife and I BABY the battery ( besides living in a desert! ) limit trips in heat of day, park in shaded area's, at works it sits on lite colored concrete. I'm a hyper miler, and the wife drives ez also. We try to charge to 80% and drive to 30% without topping off (most of the time)

Hi nrgrevolution,
Am I recalling correctly that you take your car to spend at least part of the summer in the White Mountains? If so, can you estimate the time periods it was out of the Phoenix area? In other words, could it be that taking the car to the mountains during August (for example) has kept you from losing a bar?

 

[leafkabob]

I just realized I may be confusing "nrgrevolution" with "nrg4all," a Phoenix area leaf owner who also has a summer home in the White Mountain area. Sorry if that is the case.

 

[nrgrevolution]

Negative on the white mtns, and for #7 it represents over 95% of my charging pattern. The garage still gets to 100 to 105 during the day and doesn't bleed it off that much during the night, it is north facing (less sun) Based on my trip yesterday with a full charge when the first bar fell off I can only guess the first bar falls off twice as fast as the rest. So 92% capacity? No gid meter, waiting the leaf scan.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Negative on the white mtns, and for #7 it represents over 95% of my charging pattern. The garage still gets to 100 to 105 during the day and doesn't bleed it off that much during the night, it is north facing (less sun) Based on my trip yesterday with a full charge when the first bar fell off I can only guess the first bar falls off twice as fast as the rest. So 92% capacity? No gid meter, waiting the leaf scan.

charging outside means a lower temperature especially when it would happen during the coldest part of the night. problem with the pack is that it seems to cool down very slowly like 24-48 hours slow

what most Phoenicians are probably seeing is there pack temperature hitting 100 in May and staying that way 24/7 until Nov.