Chevrolet Bolt & Bolt EUV

[GRA]

How interesting; Is a 200+mile EV usable without a DCFC fast charging network? What if GM put fast chargers at GM dealerships, like Nissan? Would that make a big difference to Bolt sales?

<snip>So now consider cold weather areas and no sacrifices for using the heat for your kids/family/friends.
So now consider emergency travels in the middle of the day from your office to take your kids/spouse to doctor. So now consider unknown construction or wrecks.

These types of very real fears/anxieties for the general public (vs earlier adopters or tech geeks) can be very much reduced with a 200+ mile BEV as a daily driver. <snip>

What he ^^^ said. 200 miles is regional+ range, adequate for almost anyone's routine daily driving needs (and enough for most people to manage two or more days without recharging, in case the power goes out overnight while they sleep), while allowing shorter range road trips with a single enroute QC. It passes the elderly, tech-illiterate (grand)parent test - would you be comfortable giving this car to same for a day of running around, with no worries that they won't be able to drive it where they want to go without anxiety and in comfort, despite the fact that every time you walk into their place (with the VCR always blinking '12:00' no matter how many times you've re-set it) the thermostat's set to 'Tropical', and they're still wearing a sweater because they feel a slight chill.

 

[lorenfb]

Haven't forgotten my arguments re FCEVs

That's good, as the forum needs your inputs on the potential of the FCEV to result in the actual demise of the
ICEV and that which fulfills the automotive consumer's perceived values of their ICEV replacement vehicle.

 

[evnow]

What he ^^^ said. 200 miles is regional+ range, adequate for almost anyone's routine daily driving needs (and enough for most people to manage two or more days without recharging, in case the power goes out overnight while they sleep), while allowing shorter range road trips with a single enroute QC. It passes the elderly, tech-illiterate (grand)parent test - would you be comfortable giving this car to same for a day of running around, with no worries that they won't be able to drive it where they want to go without anxiety and in comfort, despite the fact that every time you walk into their place (with the VCR always blinking '12:00' no matter how many times you've re-set it) the thermostat's set to 'Tropical', and they're still wearing a sweater because they feel a slight chill.

Not really. Even 200 mile EV is still very nerdish. Actually not even nerdish - it is just early adopters.

I recently listened to a tech podcast where people were discussing range anxiety and how Bolt doesn't really solve that for them.

BTW, I meet people in my office with Leaf - who have bought the car specifically as a local commute car and it works perfectly for them. They are not even interested in the upcoming 200 mile EVs.

 

[cwerdna]

I recently listened to a tech podcast where people were discussing range anxiety and how Bolt doesn't really solve that for them.

Was it a recent ep of the TWiT podcast?

As I posted elsewhere:
I was annoyed that in the latest TWiT podcast, one of the guests (Serenity Caldwell), said that (for some unknown reason) that it needed 100 more miles of range. Why? Does she drive 300 miles/day, every day?

Later on, she wanted 250+ miles. Uhh..... well, let's see, I've been driving an 84 mile range at 100% charge on the EPA test EV for about 2.5 years as my daily driver. My Prius (aka range extender) is almost never driven anymore.

 

[garsh]

...one of the guests (Serenity Caldwell), said that (for some unknown reason) that it needed 100 more miles of range. Why? Does she drive 300 miles/day, every day?

If you're going to make the "every day" argument, all you're saying is that it's a good choice if you also have another car that can handle the "exceptional" days. That's a fine argument to make. That's the tactic I used to convince my wife (and myself) that we could get by with a Leaf as one of our vehicles.

But it is the completely wrong argument to make to convince someone to buy a BEV as their only vehicle. If people are spending that much money on a vehicle, they want it to work for all of their needs.

 

[lorenfb]

Not really. Even 200 mile EV is still very nerdish. Actually not even nerdish - it is just early adopters.

I recently listened to a tech podcast where people were discussing range anxiety and how Bolt doesn't really solve that for them.

BTW, I meet people in my office with Leaf - who have bought the car specifically as a local commute car and it works perfectly for them. They are not even interested in the upcoming 200 mile EVs.

That's it!

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

The spec is 200 amps, so with a 395 volt battery in the Bolt, the max would be slightly below 80kW with the "100kW" charger. With a depleted battery at 300 volts, that is only 60kW.

Not bad. I've never gotten more than 41 kW from a 50 kW QC (106 A), so close to double that for double the battery, and charge times stay roughly the same, for roughly twice the miles.

 

[GregH]

It will be interesting to see how the infrastructure morphs over the course of 2017. While many might say a 'mere' 200 mile range is only suitable as a commuter car, I'm sure more and more people with these early 200mi cars will feel the urge to push the limits.

It's all a spectrum of convenience.. Not even a Tesla 90kWh can compare to a Prius (or just about any ICEV) for long distance convenience.
On the other side of the spectrum are the few brave souls who attempt long distance trips in a 10 or 11 bar Leaf with today's infrastructure (it is possible to travel from Baja California to British Columbia on the west coast if you're patient enough).

I car with a usable 18-24kWh needs DCQC everywhere to be moderately flexible. But a car with 50-60kWh really doesn't need much infrastructure around town. It can however (unlike the 24kWh car) make use of charging between distant destinations for which the infrastructure is sure to become more robust over the next 2 years.

I would venture that a 200mi Bolt or Leaf2 with a few 50kW charging stations would come a LOT closer to the Teslas with their SC network.
Yeah you might only go 180 miles per charge rather than 240 and yeah it might take 60-70 minutes to charge vs 40-50.. but I bet there will be plenty of Bolt and Leaf2 drivers willing to try it.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

And, least around here, CCS and CHAdeMO will offer more locations.

Still think there's enough room under the LEAF hatch for both standards.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Not even a Tesla 90kWh can compare to a Prius (or just about any ICEV) for long distance convenience.
On the other side of the spectrum are the few brave souls who attempt long distance trips in a 10 or 11 bar Leaf with today's infrastructure (it is possible to travel from Baja California to British Columbia on the west coast if you're patient enough).

I would not say having a 90kwh hour charge and then being able to get at least 100 more miles in 15 min inconvenient. I think the average stop at a gas station can be that long. 400 miles of range with a 15 min stop, not bad. Add lunch to that later and you get 700 miles. That will certainly cover all my needs.

 

[evnow]

And, least around here, CCS and CHAdeMO will offer more locations.

More locations - but not (yet) high availability. Basically you can't count on them being up and working when you need them ... unlike a managed network like Tesla's.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

And, least around here, CCS and CHAdeMO will offer more locations.

More locations - but not (yet) high availability. Basically you can't count on them being up and working when you need them ... unlike a managed network like Tesla's.

True. Not yet. But if there's enough of them, that'll be mitigated somewhat.

 

[GRA]

What he ^^^ said. 200 miles is regional+ range, adequate for almost anyone's routine daily driving needs (and enough for most people to manage two or more days without recharging, in case the power goes out overnight while they sleep), while allowing shorter range road trips with a single enroute QC. It passes the elderly, tech-illiterate (grand)parent test - would you be comfortable giving this car to same for a day of running around, with no worries that they won't be able to drive it where they want to go without anxiety and in comfort, despite the fact that every time you walk into their place (with the VCR always blinking '12:00' no matter how many times you've re-set it) the thermostat's set to 'Tropical', and they're still wearing a sweater because they feel a slight chill.

Not really. Even 200 mile EV is still very nerdish. Actually not even nerdish - it is just early adopters.

I recently listened to a tech podcast where people were discussing range anxiety and how Bolt doesn't really solve that for them.

BTW, I meet people in my office with Leaf - who have bought the car specifically as a local commute car and it works perfectly for them. They are not even interested in the upcoming 200 mile EVs.

Er, not really what? I've never claimed that 200 miles is enough to be everyone's sole car, indeed I've been saying for some years now that PHEVs remain the mainstream choice if you're a one-car family that wants an PEV. It will take at least one more generation of improved batteries, probably two, before BEVs can be universal cars with comparable to ICE capability, 300+ freeway miles while using the HVAC system, for a decade or more. But 200 miles (I've been saying at least 150) lets mainstream users, even most mega-commuters, seriously consider them for use as painless commute/errand cars, while also providing short road trip range for those who rarely take trips. Of course, until gas prices increase considerably (in the U.S.), or restrictions are put on where ICEs can be used, it's hard to make a compelling argument to the mainstream for any AFV.

 

[vrwl]

http://www.gizmag.com/chevrolet-bolt-battery-range-naias/41277/

As an owner of a 2 bar loser LEAF (and rising), I'm not sure how to interpret this statement in the article: "Chevy has used a nickel-rich chemistry in the car's lithium-ion battery in an attempt to cut down on cooling hardware and to make sure the Bolt delivers peak performance regardless of the climate it's in."

 

[GRA]

http://www.gizmag.com/chevrolet-bolt-battery-range-naias/41277/

As an owner of a 2 bar loser LEAF (and rising), I'm not sure how to interpret this statement in the article: "Chevy has used a nickel-rich chemistry in the car's lithium-ion battery in an attempt to cut down on cooling hardware and to make sure the Bolt delivers peak performance regardless of the climate it's in."

LG Chem (and most of the other companies now) are using NMC chemistry (LiNiMnCoO2) or one of its variants in their next gen batteries, as opposed to the LMO (LiMn2O4) that LG Chem and AESC used in their last gen batteries. See http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion for some details.

Tesla is using Panasonic's NCA in the Model S/X.

 

[vrwl]

http://www.gizmag.com/chevrolet-bolt-battery-range-naias/41277/

As an owner of a 2 bar loser LEAF (and rising), I'm not sure how to interpret this statement in the article: "Chevy has used a nickel-rich chemistry in the car's lithium-ion battery in an attempt to cut down on cooling hardware and to make sure the Bolt delivers peak performance regardless of the climate it's in."

LG Chem (and most of the other companies now) are using NMC chemistry (LiNiMnCoO2) or one of its variants in their next gen batteries, as opposed to the LMO (LiMN2O4) that LG Chem and AESC used in their last gen batteries. See http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion for some details.

Tesla is using Panasonic's NCA in the Model S/X.

But will that really reduce the need for thermal management as the article suggests? I'm so gun shy now about the battery's ability to handle warmer temps after having the 2011 LEAF. Nissan lied through their teeth to us about the batteries being able to withstand hot temps and even did their "testing" in Arizona. I just have no trust in what people say about the batteries handling heat. And so with Chevy's "cut down on cooling hardware", it makes me wonder whether or not we'll be jumping from the frying pan into the fire.

 

[GRA]

LG Chem (and most of the other companies now) are using NMC chemistry (LiNiMnCoO2) or one of its variants in their next gen batteries, as opposed to the LMO (LiMN2O4) that LG Chem and AESC used in their last gen batteries. See http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion for some details.

Tesla is using Panasonic's NCA in the Model S/X.

But will that really reduce the need for thermal management as the article suggests? I'm so gun shy now about the battery's ability to handle warmer temps after having the 2011 LEAF. Nissan lied through their teeth to us about the batteries being able to withstand hot temps and even did their "testing" in Arizona. I just have no trust in what people say about the batteries handling heat. And so with Chevy's "cut down on cooling hardware", it makes me wonder whether or not we'll be jumping from the frying pan into the fire.

Personally, I'll take better chemistry PLUS a TMS PLUS a rock solid capacity warranty, until the lack of need for all three is proven. VW also said that they'd decided against a TMS for the e-Golf after initially planning to include one, owing to lack of need given the (presumably NMC) battery chemistry. IMO, that and $7.50 will get you a latte. Now, let me just hitch up my suspenders, tighten my belt and adjust my velcro waistband, and I'll be on my way.

 

[RonDawg]

If people are spending that much money on a vehicle, they want it to work for all of their needs.

Unfortunately that very reasoning is the justification behind the majority of large pickup and SUV sales in this country. They only go to Home Depot once a year to buy things that won't fit in anything else, but they'd rather daily drive a vehicle with fuel economy in the teens rather than have the stuff delivered, or rent a truck that can do the task (sometimes better).

 

[edatoakrun]

...let me just hitch up my suspenders, tighten my belt and adjust my velcro waistband, and I'll be on my way.

Sounds like your anxiety may have caused you to place yourself at some risk of crapping your own pants.

Which of course, is a fitting analogy, for the morbid anxiety that seems to afflict those who depend on ICEVs, leading them to crap their own atmosphere...

 

[GRA]

...let me just hitch up my suspenders, tighten my belt and adjust my velcro waistband, and I'll be on my way.

Sounds like your anxiety may have caused you to place yourself at some risk of crapping your own pants.

Which of course, is a fitting analogy, for the morbid anxiety that seems to afflict those who depend on ICEVs, leading them to crap their own atmosphere...

No anxiety for me about BEVs, as I know they still don't meet my needs, and I suspect I have more experience with deep-cycle batteries and their foibles than most here. When using immature technology which has so far not demonstrated a correlation between optimistic durability/longevity claims and reality, IMO anyone who decides to trust claims of improved products from manufacturers who don't have any skin in the game (i.e. an enforceable warranty) and who ignore using the only known technique that has proven to be effective, is asking to get screwed. YMMV.