Consumer Reports: Volt 'doesn't really make a lot of sense

[avanti5010]

I have said it once... I have said it a thousand times. The current Volt will be gone in two years. GM will blame everyone else but themselves for it's failure. GM seems to have a special hatred for the EV crowd so don't be surprised if they try to pin it all on us... and then rush back to their old business model. :roll:

Mark my words! What we will see from GM over the next 24 months will be "Who Killed the Electric Car 2.0". Just like before, GM execs are still heavily invested in oil and business is business. This is no different than the execs of IBM owning shares of Microsoft.

I agree. GM is no friend of the EV. GM also is a poor excuse for an auto company in general. I compare them with the sneaky lying politicians running this country. They try to appear to do what the people want, but behind closed doors, it's all about big money and their rich GOP investors.

 

[walterbays]

EXCEPT- That the Ford, GM, and other mfrs of cars that cannot utilise DC quick charging, seem to be discouraging the infrastructure development for more capable EV's.

Ouch! If that's true then I don't know whether Volt is a boon or a bane. I'd like Volt to help extend the L2 charging infrastructure into fringe areas to grow the coverage. But if it is preventing deployment of L3 charging stations that's terrible. People on this forum argue what's more important, L2, 6.6 kW L2, or L3. All will have a place, but I don't think we'll know the relative importance until we have both L2 and L3 in some test regions and get some real world experience with charging and with payment systems.

I read speculation that a big reason SAE is dragging its feet on a US L3 standard is pressure from GM. If every tenth gas station had L3 "pumps" it would sure change the value proposition for Volt vs. Leaf. This article discusses the issues around SAE and CHAdeMO, but not the alleged GM pressure. http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/201...questions-loom-for-high-voltage-e-v-charging/

 

[TomT]

I honestly doubt this is true. It smacks more of typical conspiracy theory than of fact...

I read speculation that a big reason SAE is dragging its feet on a US L3 standard is pressure from GM.

 

[evnow]

I honestly doubt this is true. It smacks more of typical conspiracy theory than of fact...

I read speculation that a big reason SAE is dragging its feet on a US L3 standard is pressure from GM.

I think it is more about NIH - they don't want to accept something invented in Japan. GM gets the blame since they chair the committee looking to in this.

In an old plug-in conference report, there was dicussion of how heated the debate was as to why they are taking so long to finalize the standard. Chelsea has also written about not getting straight answers on this.

I can imagine eventually we will have Japanese (and some European) manufacturers on one side and Detroit on the other.

 

[edatoakrun]

I honestly doubt this is true. It smacks more of typical conspiracy theory than of fact...

I read speculation that a big reason SAE is dragging its feet on a US L3 standard is pressure from GM.

Not a conspiracy. It's just that Ford and GM have chosen NOT to use DC charging in their EV/plug in ICE V's.

So they have NO interest in promoting the technology that makes their products, in one aspect, clearly inferior.

And as a result, most people are unaware that the fast-charge option even exists for EV's.

Check out the exchange I had on my local paper's website below:

"Ranges for fully electric cars are now 60-150 miles. At that point, you can recharge for another 60-75 miles, in about 20 minutes."

This is pure bunk. The Chevy Volt can go only 25-50 MILES ON A CHARGE, without assistance from the gas powered generator. And it takes up to 4 hours to recharge....make that 10 hours if you don't have 240 volt access and have to use the standard 110.

Your facts are TERRIBLY wrong. I got mine from the Chevy Volt website...check for yourself!

http://gm-volt.com/chevy-volt-faqs/

The entire discussion here:

http://www.redding.com/polls/2011/feb/poll-gasoline/results/

 

[SanDust]

It's clear that Mr. Gremban has his blinders on. CalCars may have pioneered the Prius pack, but other companies have taken the ball and run with it. Plug In Supply has a 10kWh pack that gives 50 miles of EV range at up to 72mph, or 100 miles of 100+MPG in blended mode.

A plug-in parallel hybrid will never displace as much gasoline as a plug-in serial hybrid. Not happening. In the case of the Prius, connecting the traction motor to the ring gear and the wheels to the planetary gear works well with a relatively small battery pack but requires an engine assist for accelerations, negating the advantages of a larger battery pack.

The claimed 50 mile EV range is a pipe dream, and there is no shortage of tests confirming that. Among other things, the additional weight of the battery more or less offsets the MPG increase due to increased electric range. You're essentially saying that Toyota engineers are incompetent. If they weren't they'd just add a bigger battery and do a few software tweaks and the Prius would be getting 100 MPG. The fact that they added a smaller battery and the plug-in Prius gets more like 65 MPG answers the question of how effective sticking a larger back pack onto a drive system not designed for it will be. Or is it that CalCars AND Toyota have blinders on?

In the real world expect the Volt to produce something like a 2X improvement over any plug-in Prius.

 

[TomT]

That's all well and good, but that is not what typically drives the SAE when it comes to standards. The SAE's job is not to promote technology, per se, just to set standards. They have standardized many things in the past that have never actually come to market...

 

[edatoakrun]

That's all well and good, but that is not what typically drives the SAE when it comes to standards. The SAE's job is not to promote technology, per se, just to set standards. They have standardized many things in the past that have never actually come to market...


IMO, a future SAE standard little bearing on the question. My understanding, is that when/if a SAE standard supersede the LEAF's, refitting existing fast charge stations to meet it will not be technically difficult, or a large expense.

GM and Ford is just as capable as Nissan in giving their current vehicles the DC fast charge feature, using any standard they wish, and have chosen not to.

"We're waiting for the SAE" is a rather lame excuse.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

i think that Toyota has evaluated the market incorrectly. they feel that most want a 70 mpg Prius and that is why their EV range is so lame. they probably based this assumption on people not flocking to aftermarket plug in at $8-10,000 a pop so they did what they could and control costs.

but i think Toyota is wrong and that people will pay more for more EV range. i know a lot of people who have the money and want to spend the money but do not want to take the risk with a 3rd party vendor. they trust Toyota and will pay for extended EV ranges. Toyota should have put out different range options on their plug in Prius and not doing so i have to say is a mistake.

 

[SanDust]

I can imagine eventually we will have Japanese (and some European) manufacturers on one side and Detroit on the other.

Probably more complicated than this. Japan has a standard. The US doesn't. The EU doesn't because France and Germany have competing standards. Korea has announced a standard. China has announced a standard. What is known as J1772 here became a standard when the US signed on to the Japanese standard but the direct charging standard is not going to be as simple.

Some this may be parochial but there are substantive differences. For example the difference between the German and French standards has a lot to do with Germany having a triphase AC power and France having monophase.

 

[wsbca]

Check out the exchange I had on my local paper's website below:

...

Your facts are TERRIBLY wrong. I got mine from the Chevy Volt website...check for yourself!

I really love this one:

What would the effects be on the weather if we could power the entire planet with solar or wind? If you sap all of the kinetic energy from the wind, or all the heat energy from the light, isn't it reasonable to expect there would be unintended and undesirable consequences?

Outstanding FUDing. Now that they mention it, I have noticed a lot more tornadoes in my backyard since I've been so thoughtlessly sapping all that heat energy from the sunlight.

I suppose instead of "wondering what the effects would be" and "reasonably expecting" that there would be undesirable consequences, the commenter could have done a little research and learned that enough solar energy falls on the planet in one hour to fulfill a year's worth of energy needs for everyone, but that would be apparently be nowhere near as satisfying to them as keeping their noggin as firmly wedged up in their nether regions as it clearly is.

 

[DarkStar]

A plug-in parallel hybrid will never displace as much gasoline as a plug-in serial hybrid.

But the Volt isn't a series-hybrid... The motor and engine are connected via a planetary gear transmission system to the drivetrain, so it ends up being a parallel hybrid, just like the Prius.

 

[edatoakrun]

Check out the exchange I had on my local paper's website below:

...

Your facts are TERRIBLY wrong. I got mine from the Chevy Volt website...check for yourself!

I really love this one:

What would the effects be on the weather if we could power the entire planet with solar or wind? If you sap all of the kinetic energy from the wind, or all the heat energy from the light, isn't it reasonable to expect there would be unintended and undesirable consequences?

Outstanding FUDing. Now that they mention it, I have noticed a lot more tornadoes in my backyard since I've been so thoughtlessly sapping all that heat energy from the sunlight.

I suppose instead of "wondering what the effects would be" and "reasonably expecting" that there would be undesirable consequences, the commenter could have done a little research and learned that enough solar energy falls on the planet in one hour to fulfill a year's worth of energy needs for everyone, but that would be apparently be nowhere near as satisfying to them as keeping their noggin as firmly wedged up in their nether regions as it clearly is.

At some point in such conversations, you just have keep smiling and walk away...

 

[SanDust]

but i think Toyota is wrong and that people will pay more for more EV range. i know a lot of people who have the money and want to spend the money but do not want to take the risk with a 3rd party vendor. they trust Toyota and will pay for extended EV ranges. Toyota should have put out different range options on their plug in Prius and not doing so i have to say is a mistake.

As mentioned, the limit on the EV range has to do with the motors and the planetary gearset as well as the battery. The guy from MT who test drove the PIP reported the engine came on every time he drove out of the parking garage because the traction motor couldn't supply sufficient power and needed an engine assist. A 24 kWh battery pack wouldn't change this. You have a related but different problem of needing the engine to run in order to protect the smaller motor-generator at higher speeds.

I think you're right that it came down to a cost benefit analysis. For Toyota it would come down to whether people would pay $5,000 more and to lose their trunk in order to save 30 gallons of gas a year. Their conclusion was that people wouldn't be willing to make that trade-off. I think it's hard to argue with this conclusion so I think the decision to move on the BEVs made more sense.

The big strategic marketing problem for Toyota presented by the PIP is that every PIP depletes the number of tax rebates available for other models while the dollar value of the rebate for PIPs is relatively modest.

 

[SanDust]

But the Volt isn't a series-hybrid... The motor and engine are connected via a planetary gear transmission system to the drivetrain, so it ends up being a parallel hybrid, just like the Prius.

The Volt is actually superior to a series hybrid. A pure series would never use the battery after the battery hit the depletion point whereas the Volt makes extensive use of the battery both at low speeds, when accelerating, and when supplying sufficient power for the engine to supply average rather than peak power. It's a series hybrid on steroids.

You say the Volt is "just like the Prius" because it uses a planetary gearset. Would you also say that the Prius is "just like a Model T" because the Model T used a planetary gearset (it did)? The Volt and the Prius and the Model T and many other cars have used a planetary gearset, but that doesn't mean they're the same. A good example of how the Volt differs from the Prius is your statement that the reason they're the same is that in both "the motor and engine are connected via a planetary gearset". While this is true for the Prius, which connects the engine to the planetary gear and the motors to the ring and sun gears, it is not true for the Volt. Then engine in the Volt is connected only to the small motor generator, and there is no direct connection to the planetary gearset in any way shape or form.

 

[TRONZ]

Ooops never mind.

 

[DarkStar]

But the Volt isn't a series-hybrid... The motor and engine are connected via a planetary gear transmission system to the drivetrain, so it ends up being a parallel hybrid, just like the Prius.

The Volt is actually superior to a series hybrid. A pure series would never use the battery after the battery hit the depletion point whereas the Volt makes extensive use of the battery both at low speeds, when accelerating, and when supplying sufficient power for the engine to supply average rather than peak power. It's a series hybrid on steroids.

You say the Volt is "just like the Prius" because it uses a planetary gearset. Would you also say that the Prius is "just like a Model T" because the Model T used a planetary gearset (it did)? The Volt and the Prius and the Model T and many other cars have used a planetary gearset, but that doesn't mean they're the same. A good example of how the Volt differs from the Prius is your statement that the reason they're the same is that in both "the motor and engine are connected via a planetary gearset". While this is true for the Prius, which connects the engine to the planetary gear and the motors to the ring and sun gears, it is not true for the Volt. Then engine in the Volt is connected only to the small motor generator, and there is no direct connection to the planetary gearset in any way shape or form.

The engine in the Volt can drive the wheels... That's what I mean by the transmission system. The transmission allows the engine to "transmit" it's output to the wheels. I would have given GM a lot more credit if it really was a "generator" connected to an all-electric drive-train.

 

[DaveEV]

A plug-in parallel hybrid will never displace as much gasoline as a plug-in serial hybrid. Not happening.

Depends completely on the details - it'd be trivial to have either one easily beat the other depending on driving/charging habits and the fuel economy in range extender mode.

For example, I can easily come up with a few scenarios where the Prius PHEV handily beats the Volt or vice versa.

 

[smkettner]

Then engine in the Volt is connected only to the small motor generator, and there is no direct connection to the planetary gearset in any way shape or form.

Yea GM had everyone believing that until about last summer they fessed up to the actual reality :roll:

 

[SteveInSeattle]

The main issue is that the Volt doesn't get great gas mileage when using gasoline. Change out the gasoline engine for a smaller, turbo diesel and it makes much more sense-- except for the extra $3000