evnow
Well-known member
Interesting question.LakeLeaf said:
It should cost a little more since internal resistance increases, IIRC.
Cost to charge?
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It should cost a little more since internal resistance increases, IIRC.
Coffee_Slurry
Well-known member
At the relatively low currents involved in charging, the internal resistance shouldn't cost much.
It hits you more on the discharge side, where average current is much higher (3kW vs 80 kW?)
I'd expect it to act like a smaller battery that gets hotter under high stress discharging, wasting energy there.
Given the detailed thermal management that Tesla employs, and the Volt, and the Ford EV to be, and every other Li-Ion car out there, I really really hope Nissan knows what they're doing in leaving the pack temperature uncontrolled.
It hits you more on the discharge side, where average current is much higher (3kW vs 80 kW?)
I'd expect it to act like a smaller battery that gets hotter under high stress discharging, wasting energy there.
Given the detailed thermal management that Tesla employs, and the Volt, and the Ford EV to be, and every other Li-Ion car out there, I really really hope Nissan knows what they're doing in leaving the pack temperature uncontrolled.
evnow
Well-known member
True - what I mean is it will cost more to run.GroundLoop said:
LEAFer
Well-known member
On the charging side: I expect the ratio of AC-kWh-in/DC-kWh-charged to get just slightly worse (higher), meaning for the amount of electricity you put into the "old" battery, a little more gets "wasted", but only in the low single digit percentages. The large factor is, yes you've added a whole lot less (60% not 100% SOC) to get to the "new full".
On the driving side: as already suspected the resistance will increase a bit and your efficiency goes down (miles traveled per kWh).
The two factors together increase the cost (AC kWh) per mile traveled (wall-to-wheels). My wild guesstimate (all other things being equal): 5-10%. (Your utility's rates will have gone up by more than that over that time -- inflation, etc.)
On the driving side: as already suspected the resistance will increase a bit and your efficiency goes down (miles traveled per kWh).
The two factors together increase the cost (AC kWh) per mile traveled (wall-to-wheels). My wild guesstimate (all other things being equal): 5-10%. (Your utility's rates will have gone up by more than that over that time -- inflation, etc.)
It would be very interesting to see what the wall to wheel numbers are for the Leaf.
Unfortunately, without a dedicated meter that is only used for charging the Leaf, the numbers are only speculation.
For comparisons sake the Roadster gets on average about 3 miles per kwh. This doesn't mean that you cannot get 4 miles per kwh(has been done), but most Roadster drivers tend to enjoy their cars performance.
Unfortunately, without a dedicated meter that is only used for charging the Leaf, the numbers are only speculation.
For comparisons sake the Roadster gets on average about 3 miles per kwh. This doesn't mean that you cannot get 4 miles per kwh(has been done), but most Roadster drivers tend to enjoy their cars performance.
LEAFer
Well-known member
Those on L1 should get a Kill-A-Watt and report the results.
DarkStar
Well-known member
No Blinks have been deployed yet and a separate meter isn't required in all areas. The EV Project can't collect any data until the Blink EVSEs are installed, as they will be designed to download the charging data from the LEAF. All EV Project EVSEs installed at this point have been unmodified (except for the new front sticker) Clipper Creek EVSEs.drees said:
wsbca
Well-known member
\drees said:
In San Diego, our initial EVSEs are non-instrumented Clipper Creeks - soon to be swapped out for Blinks, which should be able to record how much they suck from the grid (presumably including the 30W they are going to use just sitting there - about 800 miles per year worth...feh).
In the meantime someone did instrument an L2 charge and found it to be drawing about 3.8KW (downstream from the EVSE, so power from the panel into the EVSE is that much or more) when going full bore, and based on that along with my mileage figures, recharge durations (to 80%, during which I don't think it will have tapered off that much the way it might at the end of a 100% charge), and double checking against our analog meter, I'm estimating my wall to wheel to be about 3.1 miles per kWh (meanwhile carwings is showing something like 5 miles per kWh). Assuming the car is more or less accurately recording its own consumption from the battery, I'm reluctantly tending toward the conclusion that effective charging efficiency is closer to 60% than it is to 90%. And even if the car itself is being overoptimistic, that would just change the cause of the ultimate result from charging to performance - the billed kWh per mile is what ultimately tells the tale. We'll know better once we get the Blinks and/or someone with a TED on the car circuit can accumulate some longer term and more precise data relating charges to trips, but I don't really see a way for my admittedly very preliminary results to change dramatically - the meter (hopefully) doesn't lie.
Jimmydreams
Well-known member
My TED wasn't installed correctly for the first few nights, but it's fixed now. I'm gathering EVSE specific data and will chime in once I have some real numbers.
wsbca
Well-known member
Tonight I'm trying an L1 charge to 10 bars (80%/83% Carwings) through a Kill-A-Watt, after a driving day that also started at 10 bars and finished at 3 bars showing ("25%" carwings, 19 miles remaining). 38.4 miles of driving, which I'll double check against Carwings tomorrow before I post the result. When the L1 charger kicked on, voltage as reported by the KAW dropped to ~106 from 119 which I believe someone else also noticed when doing a similar test...actually my drop might be even higher than they saw - not sure of the significance of that. The voltage is down in the other socket on the same outlet. If anybody things my house is about to catch fire, please let me know.
Watts are fluctuating between 1260 and 1275, amps between 12 and 12.2 Starting out Carwings predicted 17 hours which would be to 100%. I predict the car's going to require 12.5 kWh from the wall, which should take 9.8 hours - timer started at 6pm so I expect a charge complete email sometime between 3:45 and 4am, unless there is a taper off of charge rate even when going to 80%. If that ends up being correct, then it's going to indicate about 3.1 m/kWh wall to wheel. Carwings is going to say something like 4.8 m/kWh for the drive itself in terms of what the car used.
Watts are fluctuating between 1260 and 1275, amps between 12 and 12.2 Starting out Carwings predicted 17 hours which would be to 100%. I predict the car's going to require 12.5 kWh from the wall, which should take 9.8 hours - timer started at 6pm so I expect a charge complete email sometime between 3:45 and 4am, unless there is a taper off of charge rate even when going to 80%. If that ends up being correct, then it's going to indicate about 3.1 m/kWh wall to wheel. Carwings is going to say something like 4.8 m/kWh for the drive itself in terms of what the car used.
LEAFer
Well-known member
Based on the info you have given ... I predict end-of-charge at 05:20am 
That's a pretty big voltage drop - is the circuit you're plugged into a 15A or 20A circuit and how long is the feed from the panel?wsbca said:
Might be interesting to check the voltage of other circuits as well. If the voltage is staying at 119V that would indicate that you're losing 150W somewhere... spread out along the entire run it might be OK - concentrated in one spot you've got a problem.
It's no wonder Nissan has been recommending installing a dedicated 20A circuit for using the L1 EVSE...
walterbays
Well-known member
drees said:
I guess it's only a recommendation. http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...s-behind-the-wheel-chevy-volt,0,5927098.story
wsbca
Well-known member
wsbca said:
Well. LEAFer nailed it - end of charge came at 5:35 AM. 14.85 kWh. 2.6 m/kWh wall to wheel - Carwings doesn't have its no-charge-overhead version posted yet. Now I'm just hoping the guesstimate of 3.1 I made for L2 holds up. And wishing my solar system was about 30% bigger.
drees - It's a 15A circuit - original construction (circa 1998) outlet, presumably GFCI, more or less across the garage from the panel, plus a 15ft very heavy duty extension cord (wall outlet is up high with no convenient way to support the EVSE), then the L1 cord itself but I was measuring upstream of the L1 unit if that makes a difference. (I wanted to use the new empty 15A outlet in the box which also holds our Sunpower logger, which is very close to the panel, but it reported an open ground (both via the EVSE and via my plug tester) - need to check if the companion outlet that has the logger wall wart plugged in is also ungrounded - but that's a completely different, new circuit).
LEAFer
Well-known member
wsbca said:
... IBELEAF
Well-known member
I am not sure if I missed the post about it, but can someone tell what would be weekly and at some point monthly to charge the car?
Randy
Well-known member
The cost depends on how many miles you're driving per day, what percentage is freeway or higher speed, and what your utility rate is going to be.
For me, I drive 20-30 miles per day, so let's call it 25. The car will get on average about 4.3 miles per kwh, so that's about 6 kwh plus a fudge factor for efficiency, call it 7 kwh per day. My lowest rate to charge from midnight to 5am is 7 cents, so that would cost 49 cents per day. If I charge at any other time except for peak time (noon to 8pm), then it is about 15 cents per kwh and that could cost as much as $1.05. If I charge at peak time, that is about 35 cents per kwh and that would cost about $2.45.
25 miles of driving per day is about one gallon of gas, depending on the car (YMMV). The price for that one gallon right now is $3.29 for regular. So you could charge up for as little as 49 cents, which is considerably less...
It really helps to have the rate per kwh for the time that you expect to be charging to complete the calculation, as well as the number and type of miles you'll be driving....
Randy
For me, I drive 20-30 miles per day, so let's call it 25. The car will get on average about 4.3 miles per kwh, so that's about 6 kwh plus a fudge factor for efficiency, call it 7 kwh per day. My lowest rate to charge from midnight to 5am is 7 cents, so that would cost 49 cents per day. If I charge at any other time except for peak time (noon to 8pm), then it is about 15 cents per kwh and that could cost as much as $1.05. If I charge at peak time, that is about 35 cents per kwh and that would cost about $2.45.
25 miles of driving per day is about one gallon of gas, depending on the car (YMMV). The price for that one gallon right now is $3.29 for regular. So you could charge up for as little as 49 cents, which is considerably less...
It really helps to have the rate per kwh for the time that you expect to be charging to complete the calculation, as well as the number and type of miles you'll be driving....
Randy
IBELEAF
Well-known member
:shock: 35 cents! I usually drive about 30 miles. Also, I just looked up our rate in WA and it's currently at 8 cents for up to 600 kwhs and over that it is 10 cents which is pretty much will be my rate since I usually go over anyway.
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