Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

[Leafer77]

I was informed by the Arbitrator that I can have Witnesses attend over the telephone. The meeting will begin at 10am PST tomorrow, so if you are interested in participating please privately PM me and provide me with your name and phone number, so that I can call you tomorrow just after 10am PST.

 

[cwerdna]

Thank you for sharing the links and resources. These might be helpful tomorrow. I'm focusing my argument on that the battery loss is not "gradual" and exceeded my expectations, along with what Nissan was communicating to its customers. Therefore, the normal battery capacity warranty should not apply.

My driving range is based on a full charge and me reaching VLBW, once experiencing "Turtle". Without being too specific on this forum, my route is from San Marcos, CA to just off the Genessee via the 15S/163S, which according to Google Maps is 30.8 miles. No extreme hills or elevation changes. Traveling at 65MPH, without AC. Tires are at about 40PSI.

Unfortunately, your capacity loss was most likely gradual vs. sudden (e.g. one day, you could go 70 miles before hitting turtle and the next (and beyond) on the same route, you ran out say 40 miles into the trip...) So, I don't think that's a good angle.

But yes, it's very unfortunate that Nissan has made many statements as to claims of remaining capacity after n years that turned out to be either wrong or have a ton of caveats. (Side note: Too bad not many people commented on http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=16236.)

Re: that route, I didn't look it up, but you should install Google Earth and use it to see the elevation profile: http://priuschat.com/threads/google-earth-can-give-you-an-elevation-profile-of-a-route-between-2-points.100653/ and what the net elevation gains or losses are.

Make sure you really hit VLBW and NOT just LBW. The warnings are LBW, VLBW then turtle. Someone correct me if I"m wrong, but IIRC, when you hit VLBW, the GOM turns to a non-number of - - -.

Not sure about Leafer, but with at most 15kWh usable available from my pack I almost find your questionnaire offensive. I can squeeze 60 miles still with some freeway to under VLBW and not sweat it (do it daily), but it is likely way out of comfort zone for most others. I can see a 4-bar looser can easily be a 40-45 mile range car.

Offensive? Really? This is the first time I've EVER heard that. If so, please provide feedback on making it "non-offensive". http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=11591 states why I created such a questionnaire (and originally did so on Priuschat for "low" gas mileage complainers where I was tired of jumping in and wasting a lot of time to no avail or seeing others do the same).

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=261457#p261457 was an example of something very vague of someone complaining of "getting a whopping 30 miles per charge here in frigid Chicago" after having lost no capacity bars. They did answer the questionnaire but there was still a fair amount of back and forth.

There are plenty of Leaf drivers who don't even know about the capacity bars or are totally confused about range, like http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=16446 and http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=268304#p268304.

I never got around to posting a story about someone at my work who got rid of his Leaf (unclear if it was an '11 or '12) by turning it in early and said he couldn't be more glad to get rid of it (sometime last year, IIRC), partly due to range anxiety and capacity loss. Too bad I only found out about this 1-2 months after he got rid of it. I don't know the exact distance of his commute but his city to my work is about 23 miles, one way, almost all highway yet we have free L1 and L2 charging at work. If he lived in the next city further south from work, it'd be 27 miles, so I'm guessing his commute was no further than 30 miles, each way... again w/free L2 charging at work w/courteous EV/PHEV drivers who are pretty good about plug sharing.

He couldn't tell me how many capacity bars he was down by and I work in a tech company! He certainly didn't know anything about battery gids nor tools like gid meters like Wattsleft or tools like Leaf Spy.

At least answering a standard questionnaire gives us some useful baseline info instead of wasting a ton of time (collectively) and having to speculation and go back/foth.

 

[Valdemar]

Offensive? Really?

A smiley was implied. Still, someone who knows how much energy the battery holds and expected/actual driving efficiency shouldn't need to answer all those questions.

 

[cwerdna]

Offensive? Really?

A smiley was implied. Still, someone who knows how much energy the battery holds and expected/actual driving efficiency shouldn't need to answer all those questions.

You're assuming mileage complainers know either of those or even know how to reset their miles/kWh meter or basic concepts of what reduces/increases efficiency when operating an EV.

The guy on his 2nd Leaf at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=16446 didn't know how, because he ended up talking to me about his miles/kWh and how he got up to ____ or couldn't get it up to ____. I basically asked "did you reset it?" Apparently, he had no idea how... so of course it's difficult to get it to move up/down much if it's not been reset for thousands of miles.

 

[Valdemar]

Offensive? Really?

A smiley was implied. Still, someone who knows how much energy the battery holds and expected/actual driving efficiency shouldn't need to answer all those questions.

You're assuming mileage complainers know either of those or even know how to reset their miles/kWh meter or basic concepts of what reduces/increases efficiency when operating an EV.

The guy on his 2nd Leaf at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=16446 didn't know how, because he ended up talking to me about his miles/kWh and how he got up to ____ or couldn't get it up to ____. I basically asked "did you reset it?" Apparently, he had no idea how... so of course it's difficult to get it to move up/down much if it's not been reset for thousands of miles.

The truth is that EVs are still too high-tech for an average Joe who flunked physics in high school, a bigger battery should alleviate this problem somewhat.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

The truth is that EVs are still too high-tech for an average Joe who flunked physics in high school, a bigger battery should alleviate this problem somewhat.

Sadly, in NY, high school physics is an elective and not a requirement. At least it was when I was in high school. The vast majority of high school graduates never even get a chance to flunk physics!

I agree that a 50+kWh battery would solve this problem for the day-to-day needs (commuting, errands, etc). However, it will make people think that they can just get in the car and drive 80MPH down the highway with the heat blasting to Grandma's house 125 miles away. Without a robust charging network, we will see a new wave of EV drivers stranded on the side of the highway, 100 miles from home.

 

[TimLee]

...
But yes, it's very unfortunate that Nissan has made many statements as to claims of remaining capacity after n years that turned out to be either wrong or have a ton of caveats. (Side note: Too bad not many people commented on http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=16236.)

Very good point.
I added the following response:

Put another way, will we see ANY 2011/2012 LEAFs which cross the five-year mark with either 11 or 12 battery capacity bars still showing?
...

Some in the US Pacific Northwest and in Northeast and upper midwest will achieve that, and most in Norway, Ireland, UK will.

But Nissan's statements were based on the average LEAF achieving that.
With the geographic distribtion of the 2011 and 2012, my guess is less than 15% achieve that.

Very few in the southern part of US will.

The difficulty with Nissan's statements was they did not clarify whether they were referring to average, or mean, or most.
They also were careful to say some would have worse results.
Not sure legally how the argument will hold up in arbitration hearing.
But hope it goes well.

 

[91040]

Best of luck today with the arbitration.

The battery's sensitivity to heat is the main issue. Linking the capacity warranty to mileage is bogus. It should be based on the temperature profile of your area and/or number of charging cycles.

 

[abasile]

1st Capacity Bar loss 30,302mi 16.25mo
2nd- 48,918mi 25.5mo 51.5Ah
3rd- 73,205mi 36.5mo 46.9Ah 71% SOH 50.9Hx
4th- 86,468mi 43mo 42.61Ah 64% SOH 43.79Hx
100k miles- 50mo 38.87Ah 59% SOH 37.72Hx

I'm impressed with your perseverance on your original battery. Since TickTock ended up getting a replacement battery, I think you're now our number one "guinea pig" below the warranted capacity level. If you can hang in there with the greatly limited range, it'll be very interesting to see whether the battery's performance suddenly drops off a cliff or continues to "gradually" degrade.

 

[Leafer77]

Arbitration is complete. I should have a decision in 3 business days. I'll provide an update and details after the decision.

 

[91040]

Will probably replace the battery in September, assuming I can stand the inconveniences that long.

1st Capacity Bar loss 30,302mi 16.25mo
2nd- 48,918mi 25.5mo 51.5Ah
3rd- 73,205mi 36.5mo 46.9Ah 71% SOH 50.9Hx
4th- 86,468mi 43mo 42.61Ah 64% SOH 43.79Hx
100k miles- 50mo 38.87Ah 59% SOH 37.72Hx

I'm impressed with your perseverance on your original battery. Since TickTock ended up getting a replacement battery, I think you're now our number one "guinea pig" below the warranted capacity level. If you can hang in there with the greatly limited range, it'll be very interesting to see whether the battery's performance suddenly drops off a cliff or continues to "gradually" degrade.

 

[abasile]

Will probably replace the battery in September, assuming I can stand the inconveniences that long.

Your efforts to keep using your LEAF have been heroic from what I know. You might be the first forum member to pay for a pack replacement. It would sure be nice if they can allow you to upgrade to a 30 kWh pack (as has been contemplated elsewhere). Either way, we'll be very curious as to how things work out!

 

[TimLee]

... You might be the first forum member to pay for a pack replacement. ...

No, someone wrote about doing that six months to a year ago.
IIRC before the capacity warranty expired.
Finding the link to it would take quite a long while :roll:

 

[fooljoe]

Linking the capacity warranty to mileage is bogus. It should be based on the temperature profile of your area and/or number of charging cycles.

Mileage is a decent enough proxy for charging cycles, but it seems calendar life and temperature are more significant than usage (in whatever form) anyway. I don't see how the warranty could be based on your region's temperature, however - that'd open a huge can of worms.

Ideally the capacity warranty would be based on both age and miles, and not the OR approach typically used in warranties. For example we could make the simplistic assumption that age and miles are equally significant factors and make the warranty based on "year-miles". So the limit would be 300,000 year-miles rather than 5 years OR 60,000 miles. This would treat a heavy user and light user equally rather than the current system that favors people who drive exactly 12,000 miles/year: If you drive at 2x the "nominal" rate, then your warranty should expire at 3.5 years / 85,000 miles (very close to where your 4th bar dropped, interestingly enough); if you drive at 1/2 the nominal rate then it should be 7 years / 42,000 miles.

And what would make even more sense would be for the warranty to be prorated, as is done with tire warranties. Everyone with an '11 or '12 has a defective battery, so everyone should be compensated commensurate with the level of degradation seen. For example, if you still have 80% capacity at 5 years (or 300k year-miles), then your battery is miraculous - no compensation needed. If you only have 60% capacity at the same mark, then you get a new battery. But if you have 61% capacity how is it reasonable that you get nothing? That should earn you 95% of the cost of a new battery; 70% should earn you 50% of the cost, etc.

Anyway, just wishful thinking I'm sure. I'll go back to watching my capacity and hoping for a hot hot summer. 45.3 Ah and 11 months to go...

 

[91040]

I agree that pro-rating the battery would be the fairest approach.

Don't agree regarding mileage. If one person averages 4.8mi/kWh and another averages 3mi/kWh, whose battery will have gone through more charging cycles at any given mileage? How do they compare at 60k miles?

Temperature should also be taken into account because that is what causes these batteries to lose capacity sooner than Nissan stated. Compare my experience to Steve Taylor's.

 

[fooljoe]

Yeah, that's a good point about a high-efficiency driver cycling the battery less for the same amount of miles driven, but my thinking was that the implementation of such a scheme would be problematic. There's no gauge on the dash for total battery cycles or total kWh consumed (you can't even get those from LeafSpy as far as I know) but there is an odometer - if the warranty were based on cycles how's Joe Sixpack supposed to know when his warranty's up? You could make the same point about depth of discharge - people who don't cycle the battery as deep might have slower degradation too. At some point the perfect becomes the enemy of the good.

And while degradation is indeed mostly driven by temperature, how could that factor into a capacity warranty, practically speaking? Should people in high-temperature regions get their pack replaced at a lower SOH than people in cooler climates? The ramification of that would be that Nissan wouldn't be able to sell any cars at all in hot places (maybe they shouldn't have in the first place) or would have to substantially discount them to do so. And what if people buy their car in the PNW but then move to AZ, or vice-versa?

Maybe for some future EV battery cycles and other pack stats will be displayed to the driver, and warrantees will be based off of them and other good physics, but for now just about anything would be an improvement upon the Leaf's miserable capacity warranty.

 

[TimLee]

... for now just about anything would be an improvement upon the Leaf's miserable capacity warranty.

+10

 

[fooljoe]

I've always thought the fact that our capacity warranty was the result of a class action lawsuit to be rather odd. Usually, if you fail to opt out of such a lawsuit, you receive your share of the settlement and in exchange you forego the right to pursue an individual lawsuit. But in our case, for the vast majority of class members there is no settlement. If you don't qualify for a battery replacement, you receive no compensation, even though you may have a battery with the exact same defect as another class member who does qualify because of different usage patterns or environmental characteristics.

So how can it make sense that you can give up your right to sue while receiving absolutely nothing in compensation? Doing a little googling, I found this law review article that seems to indicate that opting out of a class action lawsuit "after the fact" is not without precedent. I'm not a lawyer, but if anyone in here is I'd love to hear the legal perspective on this, as my cursory read of the article leads me to believe there may be hope for those of us who are clearly "injured" (to use the legalese of the article) by the defective early Leaf batteries, but not entitled to any compensation under the current capacity warranty.

 

[Valdemar]

.
So how can it make sense that you can give up your right to sue while receiving absolutely nothing in compensation?

You get free quick charging for one month (or was it 3 months?) or a $50 gift card if QC is not available in your area, you cannot choose what you get.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

.
So how can it make sense that you can give up your right to sue while receiving absolutely nothing in compensation?

You get free quick charging for one month (or was it 3 months?) or a $50 gift card if QC is not available in your area, you cannot choose what you get.

This is the first I'm hearing of this. Did anyone actually get either of these compensations?