Ex Leaf-owner club (Why we gave up on Nissan Leaf)

[davewill]

I'm in the club, too. Lease was coming up, and with the amazing deal on the RAV4EV, it was really a no brainer. If the RAV hadn't come along it was neck and neck between another LEAF or a Volt.

I had to give the Spark EV an honorable mention. It was too small for me at this point when I still occasionally carry 4 or 5 adults. Surprisingly, it really drove well and was fairly roomy. An electric drive train really improves the driveability of these little cars.

 

[Weatherman]

I'll be joining the club in about 15 months, when my lease expires.

The LEAF is a nice car, but the rapid battery degradation is just too much to deal with. As a, traditionally, one-car household in a warm climate, the Volt is far better choice. Unless Tesla can come out with their Model E, at a reasonably modest price, by June 2016 (which appears unlikely), my Volt lease will be replaced with another Volt lease.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Lately, Toyota has been more famous for building cars that are ridiculously boring to drive (Camry), mediocre (Yaris), and/or outdated (2014 Corolla, rolling on the same platform since 2006), the last two of which are still offered with a four speed automatic when almost all of their competition has moved up to more gear ratios.

I didn't write that every vehicle Toyota builds is amazing! Still, I think a different metric than number of gear ratios may be needed. I'll take a great car that's been built for 10 years over a crappy new design.

Whether I join the Ex-Leafer Club will depend on the lease offers in September 2015, when my original lease, plus the extra four months I plan to extend it, will be up. If the Leaf has a 150 mile battery but I can't afford it, I may lease a Smart ED, Spark, or something similar. The current range is adequate for me, so it will be about cost, not range.

 

[Valdemar]

Tony
I am also going for a 48 kw version next year as my lease is up. Any credible evidence that will happen?

Although this is unconfirmed, there are increasing signs that Nissan will bring a LEAF with significantly longer range onto the market. While we can only speculate about the exact timing, it looks like it might happen within a year. One of the primary reason given by RAV4 buyers is longer range followed by greater utility. A LEAF with a larger battery pack could go a long way to help Nissan hold onto their EV market share, which is said to be in the vicinity of 50%.

Any sings of higher-capacity more heat-tolerant retrofit battery for legacy Leafs? It could actually make battery lease program more attractive.

 

[davewill]

Any sings of higher-capacity more heat-tolerant retrofit battery for legacy Leafs? It could actually make battery lease program more attractive.

No signs (or singing for that matter) since the original announcement last year. Theoretically, we should see them this summer, but I think we'd be lucky to see them in time for 2015. I hope they get it out, and that it works.

 

[RonDawg]

I didn't write that every vehicle Toyota builds is amazing!

No, you didn't say that, but I did. I'm saying that Toyota, when it wants to, can build some pretty fantastic cars (Lexus LFA as an example). But lately it seems to be more focused on being the world's biggest automaker by volume, and resting on its laurels, rather than innovation, the LFA and the Prius being notable exceptions.

Toyota, if it wanted to, can build a pretty awesome EV with the reliability that Toyota is famous for (and keeps reminding people of). But it chose not to. Heck, many of their ICEVs today can't compare quality wise to Toyotas of even a decade ago.

 

[fooljoe]

I still have my Leaf, but it's been relegated to my wife for driving around town and I've switched my primary driving to a Rav4-EV, which will be 1 year old in just about a week. Leaf battery degradation was getting to the point where my 50-60 mile commute was cutting it too close, and the $10k off + 0% APR deal on the Rav was too good to pass up.

 

[pclifton]

Looking at items numbered below, a reasonable person might see a pattern. I suspect many folks buying 2013s and 2014s don't know all of the history here. For their sake I hope the corporate management at Nissan changes their approach because the pattern, track record, or whatever you want to call it is not good, not good at all.

As a former two (2) LEAF family, we will never own another Nissan product as a result. Even with a double-hit on LEAF(s) I was content to keep quiet, but today a former student and fellow LEAF owner here in North Carolina lost a bar. She is selling her LEAF too, which unfortunately I recommended to her. So here are my reasons for joining the EX LEAF-OWNER club:

1. Range: We pre-ordered in 2010. In all the excitement in 2010 there was not enough information known. Nissan advertised a 100-mile range, but the real life experience was quite a bit different. After we started using the car, we found that if you drive at highway speed, you are going to get 70+ miles max (if you charge to 100%). But Nissan recommends that you charge only to 80% to prolong battery life. That drops the highway range to 50+ range, and even worse in winter. Next, lets factor in some battery degradation and all of a sudden in the North Carolina winters the range is 30-40 miles if you use the heat. I know the weather is different in California, perhaps the LEAF is better suited to more moderate climates.

2. Capacity bars: the LEAF has this display with 12 bars, that is supposed to show how much of the battery capacity is remaining. It is supposed to show any degradation in the battery pack. Most reasonable people would expect that each bar would represent about 100/12 = 8.3% of remaining capacity. Nissan hides any initial degradation by making the topmost bar 15%. So the top bar would remain until at least 15% is gone! Someone please propose another possible reason for indexing of the battery capacity guage, other than to hide battery degradation...

3. Rapid battery degradation: Read the 675 page thread for yourself. Another good summary thread is here. While waiting for our LEAF we saw several Nissan videos touting 80 percent capacity after 5 years and some saying much more than that. With my GID meter designed and assembled by Gary Giddings himself, I watched my 2012 LEAF drop 12 percent the first ten months in temperate North Carolina. I traded it when it was down 14 percent so as not to be trying to sell something with a lost bar.

4. Class action warranty: Nissan announced a battery warranty about a year ago. While Nissan presented this as something it decided to do, the warranty was actually part of a settlement for a class-action lawsuit Case Number 2:12-cv-08238(link)

5. Software fixes: We waited a year for a fix to the onboard charger to prevent it from blowing out diodes, even though there was code available -- just not to normal people. Nissan Dealer Warns Customers: Using GE’s WattStation Charger Can Damage Your LEAF By Zach McDonald PlugInCars.com Web site, July 13, 2012 *and* Problems With G.E.’s WattStation Charger for Some Nissan Leafs By JIM MOTAVALLI The New York Times Wheels Blog, July 13, 2012

6. No replacement part (battery): Nissan promises a price for a replacement battery over a year ago. A few months go by and Nissan has changed their mind. Nissan now refuses to sell a replacement battery pack, instead the "steal your battery" (SYB) program is announced. Basically we give Nissan our LEAF's battery and for $100 per month forever we are guaranteed a 9 bar battery. In the North Carolina winter what kind of range will 9 bars really provide? Is that 20 - 30 miles per charge in the winter for that $100 per month? Who would buy our used LEAF when they are told, "oh by the way, you need to send Nissan a check for $100 per month from now on." This was the final straw.

In summary, ficticious range, deceptive battery capacity guage, rapid battery degradation, a class-action battery warranty that will not help most owners, no price for a replacement battery after promising otherwise, and forcing owners to give away their battery in order to pay $100 per month in perpetuity for 30 miles of range.

By the way, if anyone would like some of the 2012 Nissan LEAF dealer brochures, I can send you ten. I used to carry them around in my LEAF to hand out. I have not done that for 12 months. I can't honestly recommend the car to someone.

Ken Clifton, former LEAF Owner x2

 

[greenleaf]

1. Range: We pre-ordered in 2010. In all the excitement in 2010 there was not enough information known. Nissan advertised a 100-mile range, but the real life experience was quite a bit different. After we started using the car, we found that if you drive at highway speed, you are going to get 70+ miles max (if you charge to 100%). But Nissan recommends that you charge only to 80% to prolong battery life. That drops the highway range to 50+ range, and even worse in winter. Next, lets factor in some battery degradation and all of a sudden in the North Carolina winters the range is 30-40 miles if you use the heat. I know the weather is different in California, perhaps the LEAF is better suited to more moderate climates.

2. Capacity bars: the LEAF has this display with 12 bars, that is supposed to show how much of the battery capacity is remaining. It is supposed to show any degradation in the battery pack. Most reasonable people would expect that each bar would represent about 100/12 = 8.3% of remaining capacity. Nissan hides any initial degradation by making the topmost bar 15%. So the top bar would remain until at least 15% is gone! Someone please propose another possible reason for indexing of the battery capacity guage, other than to hide battery degradation...

3. Rapid battery degradation: Read the 675 page thread for yourself. Another good summary thread is here. While waiting for our LEAF we saw several Nissan videos touting 80 percent capacity after 5 years and some saying much more than that. With my GID meter designed and assembled by Gary Giddings himself, I watched my 2012 LEAF drop 12 percent the first ten months in temperate North Carolina. I traded it when it was down 14 percent so as not to be trying to sell something with a lost bar.

4. Class action warranty: Nissan announced a battery warranty about a year ago. While Nissan presented this as something it decided to do, the warranty was actually part of a settlement for a class-action lawsuit Case Number 2:12-cv-08238(link)

5. Software fixes: We waited a year for a fix to the onboard charger to prevent it from blowing out diodes, even though there was code available -- just not to normal people. Nissan Dealer Warns Customers: Using GE’s WattStation Charger Can Damage Your LEAF By Zach McDonald PlugInCars.com Web site, July 13, 2012 *and* Problems With G.E.’s WattStation Charger for Some Nissan Leafs By JIM MOTAVALLI The New York Times Wheels Blog, July 13, 2012

6. No replacement part (battery): Nissan promises a price for a replacement battery over a year ago. A few months go by and Nissan has changed their mind. Nissan now refuses to sell a replacement battery pack, instead the "steal your battery" (SYB) program is announced. Basically we give Nissan our LEAF's battery and for $100 per month forever we are guaranteed a 9 bar battery. In the North Carolina winter what kind of range will 9 bars really provide? Is that 20 - 30 miles per charge in the winter for that $100 per month? Who would buy our used LEAF when they are told, "oh by the way, you need to send Nissan a check for $100 per month from now on." This was the final straw.

In summary, ficticious range, deceptive battery capacity guage, rapid battery degradation, a class-action battery warranty that will not help most owners, no price for a replacement battery after promising otherwise, and forcing owners to give away their battery in order to pay $100 per month in perpetuity for 30 miles of range.

I would assume many of the new LEAF owners are not aware of the above factors. Or, they are leasing, which somewhat mitigates some of the issues.

I see the trend here. Most of the ex-Leaf owners have moved on to either the Rav4 EV or the Volt. Both of these cars have TMS, more realistic advertised range and better expected battery life.

I know of several other people on the GM-Volt forum who gave up on the LEAF and bought the Volt instead. I guess they are not around here to provide feedback.

From another 2-Volt family.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Volt is only a 4 seat car. the 5th seat is crucial.

For those of us outside of CA, good luck getting any full EV outside of the leaf, focus, or Telsa. Can't really justify the others, when the leaf lease under 200/month ($191 with 2K down). Admittedly, I wouldn't buy the leaf though.

Nissan should figure out a "repair" option for the leaf the dealers could perform to restore battery life. It would reinvest dealers to want to carry EV's and at the same time, give owners a chance to reboot their range. That said, not sure how easy such a fix would be short of just changing out the battery modules.

 

[smkettner]

2. Capacity bars: the LEAF has this display with 12 bars, that is supposed to show how much of the battery capacity is remaining. It is supposed to show any degradation in the battery pack. Most reasonable people would expect that each bar would represent about 100/12 = 8.3% of remaining capacity. Nissan hides any initial degradation by making the topmost bar 15%. So the top bar would remain until at least 15% is gone! Someone please propose another possible reason for indexing of the battery capacity guage, other than to hide battery degradation...

I speculate Nissan really believed the battery would last longer for most people. The 15% was surly enough to get the three year leased vehicles back with 12 bars to resell as a like new vehicle with a battery in great shape. I believe reality has hit Nissan a little harder than expected. No one at Nissan had the guts to tell Carlos that the Emperor had no clothes.

 

[z0ner]

While I'm not happy with most of Nissan Corporate (which started with my ownership of a 350Z roadster prior to the LEAF), Show me a BEV with the featureset that the LEAF has in its price range.

I'm waiting...

After a couple of weeks of driving back in April of 2011, I was completely sold. If I can help it, I won't ever be driving another ICE as my primary.

Sure there are legitimate issues, but overall the LEAF is a great BEV and in its 3-year stint there still isn't a viable apples-to-apples competitor.

I just recently started another 3-year lease on my now second LEAF.

I *may* be part of this club three years from now, but with other carmakers dropping their compliance BEV programs I fear the only choices will be Nissan or Tesla.

 

[Ready2plugin]

Well now I'm officially in the Ex Leaf owner club. Not that I have anything bad to say about the Leaf, I loved mine, my driving needs have changed and it just didn't fit for me any longer. I wish the new owner lots of happy gas free miles. Hopefully I don't need to fire up the engine in the Volt too often so I can keep the EV grin going.

 

[walterbays]

I speculate Nissan really believed the battery would last longer for most people. The 15% was surly enough to get the three year leased vehicles back with 12 bars to resell as a like new vehicle with a battery in great shape. I believe reality has hit Nissan a little harder than expected. No one at Nissan had the guts to tell Carlos that the Emperor had no clothes.

+1
I bet Nissan believed the original Good-Enough battery would last long enough to get the Really-Good battery out, so that it wouldn't matter that the original battery was never going to have met the expectations they set for it. But then that original battery isn't quite as good as they thought, so they have less time than they expected, and the better battery is taking longer than expected. For those of us in mild climates with mild commutes it could still work out that way, with growing availability of quick charging taking care of occasional extra range needs until Nissan finally sells a bigger better cheaper replacement battery.

Today on MNL people switching from Leaf are fewer than those hanging on, but with every summer day and every dropped capacity bar the balance changes a bit. Eventually this thread may need to be joined by another thread tracking who drives the oldest Leaf, and what are they doing to keep it going. It will be interesting to see at the time when Nissan finally honors its long ago promise of a battery price, whether this thread of Ex Leaf-owners is longer, or the thread of Oldest-Surviving-Leafs is longer.

 

[RonDawg]

While I'm not happy with most of Nissan Corporate (which started with my ownership of a 350Z roadster prior to the LEAF), Show me a BEV with the featureset that the LEAF has in its price range.

I'm waiting...

There is the Ford Focus Electric. With Ford incentives (but excluding any government ones) my local dealer has one for $31,600. Tiny trunk, but it may not suffer from the Leaf's battery degradation issues. This is probably the Leaf's closest competitor at least until the Kia Soul EV comes out later this year.

If you can live with the interior space limitations, and they are sold in your state, there's the Chevy Spark EV and the Fiat 500e.

 

[greenleaf]

Today on MNL people switching from Leaf are fewer than those hanging on, but with every summer day and every dropped capacity bar the balance changes a bit. Eventually this thread may need to be joined by another thread tracking who drives the oldest Leaf, and what are they doing to keep it going. It will be interesting to see at the time when Nissan finally honors its long ago promise of a battery price, whether this thread of Ex Leaf-owners is longer, or the thread of Oldest-Surviving-Leafs is longer.

There's only a trickle of people who had their LEAFs delivered by March of 2011. So there are very few who have completed the 3-year lease or in CA, the 3-year CVRP ownership period required for the CA rebate.

By the end of this year, we will have a better picture when the number of 3-year-old LEAFs increase.

 

[surfingslovak]

Any sings of higher-capacity more heat-tolerant retrofit battery for legacy Leafs? It could actually make battery lease program more attractive.

No signs (or singing for that matter) since the original announcement last year. Theoretically, we should see them this summer, but I think we'd be lucky to see them in time for 2015. I hope they get it out, and that it works.

I believe that this was, and most likely still is in the works, but I haven't heard anything recently either. If this is something you were waiting or hoping for, I wouldn't give up just yet, simply because there wasn't any recent announcement.

 

[surfingslovak]

Any sings of higher-capacity more heat-tolerant retrofit battery for legacy Leafs? It could actually make battery lease program more attractive.

No signs (or singing for that matter) since the original announcement last year. Theoretically, we should see them this summer, but I think we'd be lucky to see them in time for 2015. I hope they get it out, and that it works.

I believe that this was, and most likely still is in the works, but I haven't heard anything recently either. If this is something you were waiting or hoping for, I wouldn't give up just yet, simply because there wasn't any recent announcement.

 

[surfingslovak]

Any sings of higher-capacity more heat-tolerant retrofit battery for legacy Leafs? It could actually make battery lease program more attractive.

No signs (or singing for that matter) since the original announcement last year. Theoretically, we should see them this summer, but I think we'd be lucky to see them in time for 2015. I hope they get it out, and that it works.

I believe that this was, and most likely still is in the works, but I haven't heard anything recently either. If this is something you were waiting or hoping for, I wouldn't give up just yet, simply because there wasn't any recent announcement.

 

[scottysize]

Guess I didn't see this until now. I posted this in a separate thread, but here's my thoughts on my Ex-Leaf:

Forgive me if I put this in the wrong place, but I'm done with Nissan. I took the Leaf in 3 times because the batteries wouldn't hold a charge. This last time was 3 weeks ago. The Service Manager agreed with me. The problem? Too many battery bars. My car as 10 and until it looses 2 more, they won't even discuss it. The Service Manager requested an engineer come out and see the car because it is loosing the charge too fast. On a full charge we would be lucky to get 50 miles out of the car. The Nissan Customer Service line said that driving style, temperature, etc plays a part. Duh. And I'd be happy to agree with them if it was that way for the first year and a half, but its not. About a year and a half ago, the car just started losing it's charge faster than it should. We took it in and the service tech said there was nothing wrong with it. We took it in several more times to no avail. Finally this past time, we asked the service manager to please drive it for a week. He did. That's when he said, yup, something's not right. However, he couldn't convince Nissan and we couldn't. He kept it for 2 more weeks trying to get an engineer out, but they never would send one. We finally picked up the car last Friday. It's a lease and we have 4 more months left on it, but we're turning it in this week. No sense keeping something that we can't drive, so we'll just shell out the next 4 months of payments in one chunk and move on.

Here's Nissan's Problem:
I have a 2012 Titan and was wanting to replace it with the diesel version that comes out next year. Now that we have found out that Nissan won't support their products, I am not buying another vehicle from them. While I'm just one person, I think I'll have an impact on them (at least in my mind). I've purchased 3 Titans from them over the past 10 years. My mom has purchased 2. I've pushed Nissans on everyone I know and have gotten several others to make Nissan purchases. After this last fiasco, I'm done with Nissan. Never again will I purchase one, and never again will I recommend anyone purchase one.

Good Bye Nissan.