Excellent Article! -- "Myths And Facts About Electric Cars"

[edatoakrun]

Please stop using the term "denier", its disrespectful to Holocaust victims.

So, will it be politically correct to use this term, only after we can tally up the first few million fatal victims of climate change?

Have you decided, exactly how many million deaths, will be required?

 

[91040]

The breadth of opinions, politics and personality expressed on this forum prove that EVs have broad support.

 

[adric22]

And this revives an earlier-in-the-year discussion. If you drive an EV, you are a environmentalist. You may not like the tag, but there is is. Just as - if you dont eat meat, you are a vegetarian.

This is seriously wrong. I think most would agree than an environmentalist consciously chooses to live a lifestyle that is better for the environment. I mean, by your definition some of the tribes living in South America are considered environmentalists. Or, a person who rides a bicycle because it is the only transportation he can afford is an environmentalist.

A person who doesn't eat meat (for whatever reason) makes him a vegetarian by definition. But that doesn't necessarily make him an animal rights advocate. It could be that there is simply no meat available in his part of the world. Or maybe his digestive system can't handle meat. Or maybe he believes meat is unhealthy.

So I say it is perfectly possible for a person to drive an EV and NOT be an environmentalist. I happened to know at least 2 people who drive a Prius and they do it only for the gas mileage and are very right-wing people.

 

[thankyouOB]

And this revives an earlier-in-the-year discussion. If you drive an EV, you are a environmentalist. You may not like the tag, but there is is. Just as - if you dont eat meat, you are a vegetarian.

This is seriously wrong. I think most would agree than an environmentalist consciously chooses to live a lifestyle that is better for the environment. I mean, by your definition some of the tribes living in South America are considered environmentalists. Or, a person who rides a bicycle because it is the only transportation he can afford is an environmentalist.

A person who doesn't eat meat (for whatever reason) makes him a vegetarian by definition. But that doesn't necessarily make him an animal rights advocate. It could be that there is simply no meat available in his part of the world. Or maybe his digestive system can't handle meat. Or maybe he believes meat is unhealthy.

So I say it is perfectly possible for a person to drive an EV and NOT be an environmentalist. I happened to know at least 2 people who drive a Prius and they do it only for the gas mileage and are very right-wing people.

I disagree completely.
it still makes them environmentalists. if you have a stomach disorder and eat no meat, you are a vegetarian; and ditto the other meatless eaters you cite. you are correct about animal rights activist, however.
if you drive an EV and so improve the environment by reducing gasoline usage, cut air pollution and make the air healthier for all while decreasing dependence on petroleum, then you are an environmentalist.

you can look it up. webter's says that if you are doing things to improve the environment you are an environmentalist.
All EV drivers are doing something that improves the environment, regardless of whether their reason for doing it is merely to not buy gasoline. the fact is they are not burning gasoline.

 

[Boomer23]

My follow-up diary to this article at the Great Orange Satan.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/...-to-kill-the-electric-car-now-?via=siderecent

Nicely done, Aeolus.

 

[edatoakrun]

So stop trying to change their minds.

So what benefit of EVs can "right-wingers" get behind? It seems like no matter what the benefit, there is always some objection to it, simply because "left-wingers" and "right-wingers" seem to find a need to argue for arguments sake!

Try his:

Air pollution, even at levels generally considered safe by federal regulations, increases the risk of stroke by 34%, according to a new study by researchers at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center. Stroke is a leading cause of long-term disability and the third leading cause of death in the United States. An estimated 795,000 Americans suffer a new or recurrent stroke every year, resulting in more than 135,000 deaths and 829,000 hospital admissions.

Writing in the 14 Feb. 2012 issue of the Archives of Internal Medicine, researchers who studied more than 1,700 stroke patients in the Boston area over a 10-year period found exposure to ambient fine particulate matter, generally from vehicle traffic, was associated with a significantly higher risk of ischemic strokes on days when the EPA’s air quality index for particulate matter was yellow instead of green....

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2012/02/pm25-20120214.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[adric22]

Air pollution, even at levels generally considered safe by federal regulations, increases the risk of stroke by 34%, according to a new study by researchers at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center. Stroke is a leading cause of long-term disability and the third leading cause of death in the United States. An estimated 795,000 Americans suffer a new or recurrent stroke every year, resulting in more than 135,000 deaths and 829,000 hospital admissions.

You don't get it. EV haters are convinced that EVs are more destructive to the environment than gasoline cars. We've heard all of the arguments: coal-fired electric plants, toxic batteries, strip mining of lithium, etc. Yes, it is all bogus science and fear mongering. But you'll never convince them of that. They have their minds made up and they will not bother to read anything with an open mind. That is why I say stay away from environmental arguments when dealing with EV-haters. You can't win with that argument.

 

[garygid]

If I buy a 35 mpg ICE to replace my 22 mpg vehicle,
I am an Envionmentalist?

If I turn off the TV when I am not watching it,
I am an Environmentalist?

If I walk to the voting polls instead of driving,
I am an Environmentalist?

No, it requires at least a belief and attitude,
not just a few isolated actions.

 

[Herm]

I call BS on that, and I have a host of relatives burned up the chimneys by the ultimate right-wingers who ran Germany.
And this revives an earlier-in-the-year discussion. If you drive an EV, you are a environmentalist. You may not like the tag, but there is is. Just as - if you dont eat meat, you are a vegetarian.

I am an environmentalist, I dont want to breathe crappy air and drink dirty water, I dont want to see whole species disappearing from the face of the Earth forever... and I am pro-drilling and pro-nuclear so there.

Deniers are those nasty pro-Nazi sympathizers that just simply hate Jews.. how can anyone just apply that horrible term to people that are skeptical of AGW?. It is disrespectful to Holocaust victims such as yourself because it dilutes the nastyness of true Deniers. I grew up in Miami Beach, I remember the disgust of seeing those blue tattoed numbers on the arms of many Jewish geezers .. how can anyone deny that?

 

[Herm]

So, will it be politically correct to use this term, only after we can tally up the first few million fatal victims of climate change?
Have you decided, exactly how many million deaths, will be required?

I hope you live long enough to see the coming Ice Age and regret making that statement.. and no, my comment is not as stupid as yours

 

[Herm]

Must be a very old vehicle. Most stuff is 5,000 to 10,000+ these days. ICE vehicles are often way over maintained. Really going to cut into the service business when we only go in every two or three years.

Just go to the parking lot of a Jiffy lube and see the endless stream of cars come in to get their 4 quarts of dirty oil replaced.

 

[smkettner]

I went to JL once. They tried to upsell me on all sorts of maintenance that was not needed.
Not saying many cars are not neglected also. Just that once you get in they will change anything possible needed or not.
3,000 is generally too early for an oil change according to the manufacturer but that is what gets on the sticky reminder.

I can't wait to hear of the longest miles driven in a Leaf with ZERO service, ZERO checking anything, ZERO going to any general service checkup.
I bet most could go 5 or 10+ years. OK maybe you will need tires or wiper blades but I don't count that.

 

[GRA]

Air pollution, even at levels generally considered safe by federal regulations, increases the risk of stroke by 34%, according to a new study by researchers at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center. Stroke is a leading cause of long-term disability and the third leading cause of death in the United States. An estimated 795,000 Americans suffer a new or recurrent stroke every year, resulting in more than 135,000 deaths and 829,000 hospital admissions.

You don't get it. EV haters are convinced that EVs are more destructive to the environment than gasoline cars. We've heard all of the arguments: coal-fired electric plants, toxic batteries, strip mining of lithium, etc. Yes, it is all bogus science and fear mongering. But you'll never convince them of that. They have their minds made up and they will not bother to read anything with an open mind. That is why I say stay away from environmental arguments when dealing with EV-haters. You can't win with that argument.

Agreed. The simplest way to disarm most of the EV-haters that populate the right-wing blogosphere is to refuse any of the federal/state/local incentives when you buy/lease an EV, and work for their repeal. Do the same for any government-backed loans or grants to battery and EV companies as well, along with solar/wind companies should you make use of such methods to charge. If you live in California or other states that allow single-occupancy HOV lane use, don't get stickers either. [Added] Oh, and obviously you should insist on paying full freight on any L2 charger that you install at your house, no freebies or subsidies.

If you've paid MSRP/full lease (or whatever you can negotiate with the dealer) for the car and refuse any other benefits from the gummint, that won't eliminate all of the hot air but it will stop their biggest source of outrage. Of course, pointing out the subsidies that oil and gas companies receive will be ignored or rationalized, so don't bother.

Then, make your argument on purely economic grounds why spending $30-$40k on an EV with a typical range of 50-70 miles is a better choice for you than a comparably-equipped fossil-fueled car with essentially unlimited range at only 1/3rd - 2/3rds the MSRP, and feel free to throw in national security issues - a fair number of neo-cons are on-board for the latter reason.

 

[fooljoe]

you can look it up. webter's says that if you are doing things to improve the environment you are an environmentalist.
All EV drivers are doing something that improves the environment, regardless of whether their reason for doing it is merely to not buy gasoline. the fact is they are not burning gasoline.

I looked it up: "any person who advocates or works to protect the air, water, animals, plants, and other natural resources from pollution or its effects." It's pretty clear you have to make a conscious decision to protect the environment to qualify. I'm with adric22.

 

[thankyouOB]

you can look it up. webter's says that if you are doing things to improve the environment you are an environmentalist.
All EV drivers are doing something that improves the environment, regardless of whether their reason for doing it is merely to not buy gasoline. the fact is they are not burning gasoline.

I looked it up: "any person who advocates or works to protect the air, water, animals, plants, and other natural resources from pollution or its effects." It's pretty clear you have to make a conscious decision to protect the environment to qualify. I'm with adric22.

I translate "works" as "does something"
the online dictionary that you cited, lists this as one meaning: "productive or operative activity."
and so it seems pretty clear that all EV owners are doing something - ie working -- or in an operative activity that improves the environment.

 

[thankyouOB]

If I buy a 35 mpg ICE to replace my 22 mpg vehicle,
I am an Envionmentalist?

If I turn off the TV when I am not watching it,
I am an Environmentalist?

If I walk to the voting polls instead of driving,
I am an Environmentalist?

No, it requires at least a belief and attitude,
not just a few isolated actions.

one of the few times that I disagree with you, Gary.
It is not an isolated activity to daily drive an EV, rather than an ICE. For most people. the purchase of a car is the second most expensive thing they buy. It is not some ancillary or isolated activity. it is a central decision and the key machine in most people's life.
In addition, it has lasting and long-term effects, and it also creates a cascade of effects, including and not limited to promulgating the EV (no gas) lifestyle and message, as well as reducing air pollution and the amount of petroleum that is bought, sold and burned.

isolated examples are different than ongoing activities that promote a reduction in the use of fossil fuels.
EV buyers are all environmentalists now, GG.

 

[padamson1]

You don't get it. EV haters are convinced that EVs are more destructive to the environment than gasoline cars. We've heard all of the arguments: coal-fired electric plants, toxic batteries, strip mining of lithium, etc. Yes, it is all bogus science and fear mongering. But you'll never convince them of that. They have their minds made up and they will not bother to read anything with an open mind. That is why I say stay away from environmental arguments when dealing with EV-haters. You can't win with that argument.

Good Point. There are many different reasons to drive an EV: environmental, political, and maybe even financial (although without subsidies that's a stretch espeically since big oil subsidies are too hard to enumerate so the debate digresses too quickly).

When talking about EV's with people I typically use them all, some stick, some don't. The article in question was focusing mostly on the environmental slant and I think it covered it well. However I don't bother with that angle when I talk with people like my Dad. I focus on not giving more money overseas (almost all fuel for electricity comes from US of A which means it stays in our economy), a zippy quiet car, and then close with the lower operating costs. When he counters with the Fox fiction, I point out how it's fiction and stick to the undeniable facts. Dad doesn't drive more than 50mi a day any more, now he's considering a Volt (buy American). Job done, one person at a time.

 

[smkettner]

You don't get it. EV haters are convinced that EVs are more destructive to the environment than gasoline cars. We've heard all of the arguments: coal-fired electric plants, toxic batteries, strip mining of lithium, etc. Yes, it is all bogus science and fear mongering. But you'll never convince them of that. They have their minds made up and they will not bother to read anything with an open mind. That is why I say stay away from environmental arguments when dealing with EV-haters. You can't win with that argument.

Can't win? Next time electric makes no sense tell them we should all buy gasoline generators to run 24/7/365 and disconnect from the utility power.

 

[Herm]

... by the ultimate right-wingers who ran Germany.

Just wanted to comment on this, an interesting thing I came across recently regarding the Nazis being on the socialist side of the political scale, not the right side:

"The “socialist” part of National Socialism might be scoffed at by hard-&-fast Marxists, but the Nazi movement nevertheless had a mass basis. The 1,500 miles of magnificent highways built, schemes for cheap cars and simple workers’ benefits, grandiose plans for rebuilding German cities made Germans burst with pride.
..
The Nazi credo that the individual belongs to the state also applies to business. Some businesses have been confiscated outright, on others what amounts to a capital tax has been levied. Profits have been strictly controlled. Some idea of the increasing Governmental control and interference in business could be deduced from the fact that 80% of all building and 50% of all industrial orders in Germany originated last year with the Government. Hard-pressed for foodstuffs as well as funds, the Nazi regime has taken over large estates and in many instances collectivized agriculture, a procedure fundamentally similar to Russian Communism."

"Hitler, Man of the Year", Time Magazine 1938.
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread496273/pg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[coolfilmaker]

I went to JL once. They tried to upsell me on all sorts of maintenance that was not needed.
Not saying many cars are not neglected also. Just that once you get in they will change anything possible needed or not.
3,000 is generally too early for an oil change according to the manufacturer but that is what gets on the sticky reminder.

I can't wait to hear of the longest miles driven in a Leaf with ZERO service, ZERO checking anything, ZERO going to any general service checkup.
I bet most could go 5 or 10+ years. OK maybe you will need tires or wiper blades but I don't count that.

Now I really want to see what someone at Jiffy Lube would try to sell to a Leaf owner.