Federal Tax Credit or 6.6kW Preparedness?

[smkettner]

Tesla I believe has well over 100 mile range

 

[mitch672]

what doesn't everyone get? you are comparing a $130,000 Tesla Roadster, with a $33,500 Leaf.

The Tesla Roadster costs 4 TIMES the Leaf, they can well afford to use a much more expensive charger.

Also, 70A 240V circuits are not too common, and will tax most home electrical systems...
the main reason is cost though.

 

[cdub]

Wasn't aware there was that much of a cost difference between the 2 charging systems.. but that makes sense.

 

[tps]

Tesla's home charger is 53 miles per hour. Holy moly. If all of the standard 220 chargers were that.. there would be NO range anxiety.

Range anxiety is primarily caused by charge capacity, not rate of charge. My guess is that Nissan's charge rate was determined so the 24 kwh pack could be charged "overnight", the most common charging scenario that was foreseen. Had they doubled the pack capacity to 48 kwh, they'd likely have used an on-board charger with twice the capacity. To reduce range anxiety they would have to increase both the pack size and charge rate, as I see it.

I also assume they think that DC fast charging will predominately be used for anything faster than "overnight".

While these assumptions may not always be true, it gives me a way to make sense of their possible intentions.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Are these compatible with the LEAF?
http://www.teslamotors.com/goelectric/charging/universal-mobile-connector

http://www.teslamotors.com/goelectric/charging/high-power-wall-connector

Why didn't the let the LEAF charge at a higher rate..

If the Tesla can charge from 0 to full in 4 hours and it has a much larger battery pack... couldn't the Leaf pack technically be full in 2 hours with the better onboard charger... that would be a much more attractive option to reduce range anxiety.

You can buy the Tesla EVSE for $1950 and swap the cord and have a 16kw EVSE that will charge any EV today and most likely in the future.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Tesla's home charger is 53 miles per hour. Holy moly. If all of the standard 220 chargers were that.. there would be NO range anxiety.

Range anxiety is primarily caused by charge capacity, not rate of charge. My guess is that Nissan's charge rate was determined so the 24 kwh pack could be charged "overnight", the most common charging scenario that was foreseen. Had they doubled the pack capacity to 48 kwh, they'd likely have used an on-board charger with twice the capacity. To reduce range anxiety they would have to increase both the pack size and charge rate, as I see it.

I also assume they think that DC fast charging will predominately be used for anything faster than "overnight".

While these assumptions may not always be true, it gives me a way to make sense of their possible intentions.

No it's cause by perception and lack of understanding and the second question is usually, "where do I charge and how quick is it? The useful rang of the Leaf can really be boosted by only having a 6.6 kw charger because it significantly increases the amount of charge one can get when opportunity charging while shopping, visiting friends etc. One thing Leaf owners will loose out on is where parking lots include charging with the parking fee, if you PAY to park for two hours and only have a 3.3kw charger you loose out on getting more charge. The figured an overnight charge because making it quicker cost more but not much more.

 

[Randy]

Is it possible that some entrepreneurial company will design and sell a DC "Slow" charger for home use for the 1st Gen Leafs? By that, I mean a charger that plugs into the DC Fast Charge port on the car, but pushes 6.6kW into the car from a special home DC EVSE? Seems like there would be a market for that if the price was right...

 

[EVDRIVER]

Is it possible that some entrepreneurial company will design and sell a DC "Slow" charger for home use for the 1st Gen Leafs? By that, I mean a charger that plugs into the DC Fast Charge port on the car, but pushes 6.6kW into the car from a special home DC EVSE? Seems like there would be a market for that if the price was right...

If you are going to do that it would make more sense to do a 40A 9.6kw charger from a marketing basis and for those that want faster charging on any EV with an L3 plug. I would imagine someone comes up with a PFC type kit with a plug and control board.

 

[TimeHorse]

How long would you be willing to wait to drive your LEAF for each mile.

• 11 minutes: Free in US / Canada
• 5 1/2 minutes: Free in Europe
• 4 minutes: with 3.3kW built-in Charger and EVSE
• 2 minutes: with 6.6kW Charger upgrade (possible)
• 1 minute 20 seconds: with 10.5kW Charger upgrade (very unlikely)
• 45 seconds: with parts hacked from a Tesla
• 4.5 seconds: using DC Fast Charge with Battery damage

11 minutes vs. 4 minutes for the standard EVSE; 2 minutes with a 6.6kW upgrade, 4.5 seconds with DC Fast Charging -- which is still much faster than Tesla charging by a factor of ten!

 

[cdub]

Is it possible that some entrepreneurial company will design and sell a DC "Slow" charger for home use for the 1st Gen Leafs? By that, I mean a charger that plugs into the DC Fast Charge port on the car, but pushes 6.6kW into the car from a special home DC EVSE? Seems like there would be a market for that if the price was right...

Would that be possible? Probably would void your warranty though.

 

[mitch672]

TimeHorse,

not everyone has access to 3 phase, 277/480V power @ hundreds of amps. that will be commercial only.
just that electrical service alone with no charger is in the $50-100K range

forget about DC fast charging, except in rare cases, on the West coast, in the EV project areas. No one else is getting it.

I already started a thread a long time ago on the Manzanita Micro PFC-50, which may be able to be adapted to the Leafs DC fast charging port. Someone would need to bring them a Leaf with a DC port to work with.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=286&hilit=PFC50

 

[garygid]

L1: 100 mi in 20 hours = 5 mi per hour = 60/5 = 12 minutes/mile.

L2: 100 mi in 8 hours, or 60 * 8 = 480 minutes, so 4.8 minutes per mile

DC QC: 80 mi in 30 minutes is 160 miles in 1 hour = 3600 sec / 160 = 90/4 = 45/2 = 22.5 seconds per mile (not 4.5) ...
and most likely without battery damage, since
the car SHOULD protect itself from abuse.

If it does not, I would consider that a significant oversight (design flaw).

 

[TimeHorse]

Is it possible that some entrepreneurial company will design and sell a DC "Slow" charger for home use for the 1st Gen Leafs? By that, I mean a charger that plugs into the DC Fast Charge port on the car, but pushes 6.6kW into the car from a special home DC EVSE? Seems like there would be a market for that if the price was right...

Would that be possible? Probably would void your warranty though.

Heck, it'd be nice if a 220V 90A to CHAdeMO connector could be developed with an AC->DC circuit since CHAdeMO is DC but J1772 is AC IIRC. Or, I think from a practical point of view, a unit that plugs into a NEMA 6-50P and outputs 11kW (sustained) CHAdeMO with say 480V but only 23A. True, there'd be some loss in the circuit but let's say 10.5kW from my example is the effective charge rate. We still would get 1:20 minutes per mile or about 2 hours to filly charge.

not everyone has access to 3 phase, 277/480V power @ hundreds of amps. that will be commercial only.
just that electrical service alone with no charger is in the $50-100K range

I agree! I was not intending to imply that a home would have a 480V 400A CHAdeMO station. Even a 70A or 90A circuit is a bit much for home wiring needs. Seems to me the 8kW jumps in Charging standards is annoying if you miss it by a couple of kW so you have to jump 20 more amps in your wiring gauge and receptacles. But I think it's worth checking out your thread:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=286&hilit=PFC50

As for Gary's corrections, I do agree those represent more real-world conditions. My numbers are based on theoretical maximum charging and 22.5 seconds is still twice as fast as Tesla charging. 11 vs. 12 minutes, I wouldn't sweat as it's still twice L2. 5.5 vs. 4.8 minutes is more significant, but I seem to recall that the charger in the LEAF, being 3.3kW, would charge closer to 7 hours 16 minutes. I'm sure the truth lies closer to 8 and we should all plan for 8, but I think it could be anywhere between 5.5 and 4.8 minutes for a given mile since the best bang for your buck is going to come from before the final 80% charge.

 

[garygid]

Many 30/32A (6.6 kW) EVSEs will be available, but the LEAF's on-board J1772 charger will only use 15 or 16 amps.

So, an AC-to-DC "controlled" power supply to take the J1772 as input and then connect to the LEAF's DC-QC input, doing the needed communication with the EV ... would give us about twice as fast charging from most of these "public" (or home) EVSEs.

Allowing this "Plan B" Charger Box (PBCB) to be powered from 50A 240v at RV Park outlets ... would give us about 80% charging in under 2 hours (12 kW).

Maybe the "Plan-B" box would be a good DIY project?

 

[EVDRIVER]

Many 30/32A (6.6 kW) EVSEs will be available, but the LEAF's on-board J1772 charger will only use 15 or 16 amps.

So, an AC-to-DC "controlled" power supply to take the J1772 as input and then connect to the LEAF's DC-QC input, doing the needed communication with the EV ... would give us about twice as fast charging from most of these "public" (or home) EVSEs.

Allowing this "Plan B" Charger Box (PBCB) to be powered from 50A 240v at RV Park outlets ... would give us about 80% charging in under 2 hours (12 kW).

Maybe the "Plan-B" box would be a good DIY project?

It is not a power supply, I think you mean charger as a power supply is not set up exactly the same as a charger. One would use a J1772 and adaptor for other plugs to go into the charger and this would connect to the Leafs DC QC port. You can buy J1772 ends and attach them to your own cord with an adaptor at the charger side to swap plug ends if needed.

 

[evnow]

I agree! I was not intending to imply that a home would have a 480V 400A CHAdeMO station. Even a 70A or 90A circuit is a bit much for home wiring needs. Seems to me the 8kW jumps in Charging standards is annoying if you miss it by a couple of kW so you have to jump 20 more amps in your wiring gauge and receptacles.

It is definitely possible to make a charger that takes 240/32A and outputs using 480V CHAdeMO. If they get certified, that should avoid any idea of voiding Leaf warranty. But, in the short term I think it will be restricted to gray market ...

 

[garygid]

I need to read the "DC QC" communication (EV to "charger) specifications.
Are they available anywhere yet?