First Public Charger in San Diego 6/16 Show up to Support!

[ElectricVehicle]

[*]Before the end of the year you will need to give credit card info to activate your card.

Thus answering the one big question I had. I like the billing aspect AND the charger reservations....although the latter might prove problematic. (what if I reserved a charger (thus blocking your use of it) and then never show?)

In that case I actually would say it's reasonable for them to charge you $1 for a no show and release the charger if you're not there within 30 minuts of the appointed time. Maybe they could let you reserve with a 2 hour window, but if you miss that one, there'll be a $2 no show charge. I can even see those cancellation fees applying to free chargers - if you're going to use it, sure reserve it no problem. But you don't want people abusing it, and in the worst case, anti-EV forces organize get accounts and then reserve all the chargers without even owning an EV, obviously no intent of using but merely to sabotage EV drivers... So it should come at some small cost / risk to you to reserve and not use... Now if we could get something setup for junk email and spam....

 

[z0ner]

and in the worst case, anti-EV forces organize get accounts and then reserve all the chargers without even owning an EV, obviously no intent of using but merely to sabotage EV drivers... So it should come at some small cost / risk to you to reserve and not use... Now if we could get something setup for junk email and spam....

Then in that case there should be NO reservation system. You think anti-EV organizations (think Big Oil/Detroit) don't have deep pockets? There is no amount of penalty money that couldn't dissuade them from fouling up the works. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if they kept purposefully parking ICE cars in the busiest of charging locations.

 

[smkettner]

I don't get where they need to make such a killing on the electric. I could see maybe twice the rate of the electric cost but any more is a rip. Can you imagine if a gas station was making anywhere close to 50% gross margin :shock: It is not like they don't have costs especially for equipment certification in CA along with full time personnel costs.

$2.50 per hour.... give me a break. :x

 

[Randy]

Yes, $2.50 per hour is higher than what I'd like to see (especially since the Leaf can't charge at the full capability of the Blink).

But don't forget that the host doesn't get all the money. The Blink network gets something like 50 cents per transaction and a percent of the total.

I still think that if a particular host prices the hourly charge too high, people will just go elsewhere when enough units get installed in the field...

However, consider this: An hour's worth of charge at home during peak time would cost about $1.60 or so (on my current rate). That's the price to compare to...You can't think of public charging pricing in terms of your own super off-peak pricing.

 

[walterbays]

Regarding reservations, I think Chargepoint does it right. You pay for the reserved time, whether or not you show up. If you arrive late you lose that much of your reserved time. If you want to stay longer you need to make and pay for another reservation. https://www.chargepointportal.net/index.php/general/uri/faq.html#F26

Regarding the possibility of evil anti-EV zealots blocking the charging stations with spurious reservations, I think Blink and Chargepoint could deal with that. Currently Chargepoint only allows card holders to make reservations. They could continue that policy, so if an ICE driver wanted to make mischief with EV charging he would have to buy a card. Then it would be simple for Blink and Chargepoint to detect a pattern where a card holder repeatedly made reservations without actually plugging in, and deactivate the account.

For Balboa Park, where parking is usually so scarce, I'm more worried about signs, parking enforcement, and towing, to keep the spaces available for EV's. On another thread someone noted that a sign "Electric Vehicles Only" sometimes led hybrid drivers to park there in the mistaken belief that their cars were electric.

One good sign was "No Parking Any Time - Except Electric Vehicles While Charging". That would also take care of the problem of someone charging for half an hour but parking there all day, taking advantage of the prime parking location. But that wouldn't really work, because it wouldn't allow someone to use the charging station while attending an event in the park. E.g., I'm not going to leave a performance at Old Globe Theater to move my car halfway through the first act. The simplest solution might be signs saying "No Parking Any Time - Except Electric Vehicles 3 Hours Maximum."

For a more complicated solution, the reservation system could charge something like $10 to make a reservation, waived if you actually showed up and plugged in; $1 for the first hour, $2 for the second and third hours, and $20 for each subsequent hour.

 

[Nekota]

I want to see charging stations using Capstone turbines (C-60) with natural gas so concerns about grid power demands at peak power times are assuaged. Then the charging station can supply power back to the grid as well as the BEVs.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I want to see charging stations using Capstone turbines (C-60) with natural gas so concerns about grid power demands at peak power times are assuaged. Then the charging station can supply power back to the grid as well as the BEVs.

How about solar panels on the host's building?

 

[walterbays]

I want to see charging stations using Capstone turbines (C-60) with natural gas so concerns about grid power demands at peak power times are assuaged. Then the charging station can supply power back to the grid as well as the BEVs.

Or solar: http://www.solarserver.com/solar-ma...es-small-scale-solar-ev-charging-station.html

The Socket system includes EnvisionTrack tracking technology, and one vehicle charging hookup. The capacity of each Socket is 1.44kW when using 240 watt modules, and the company states that the system provides enough energy each day for a full charge for an electric vehicle or plug-in hybrid.

 

[DaveEV]

How about solar panels on the host's building?

Done. http://goo.gl/maps/Y6Os

100 kW of panels are already on the roof of the Reuben H Fleet Science Center. Ought to be enough to charge about 20 during the peak of the day. Since only 10 charging stations are installed - no problem.

I see a lot of other nearby roof space that would be good for PV panels - and a lot of parking lot space that could use some shade as well!

 

[ElectricVehicle]

Yes, $2.50 per hour is higher than what I'd like to see (especially since the Leaf can't charge at the full capability of the Blink).

But don't forget that the host doesn't get all the money. The Blink network gets something like 50 cents per transaction and a percent of the total.

I still think that if a particular host prices the hourly charge too high, people will just go elsewhere when enough units get installed in the field...

However, consider this: An hour's worth of charge at home during peak time would cost about $1.60 or so (on my current rate). That's the price to compare to...You can't think of public charging pricing in terms of your own super off-peak pricing.

No, you can't.... Paricularly because most business / commercial electric rates are going to be MUCH CHEAPER than our on peak rates. I'm not that familiar with the commercial rates, but in virtually all cases they's paying much less than the $0.50/KWh we pay in PG&E land in the tier 4 and 5 usage on peak.

On peak, depending on your rate schedule is around 12p-7pm, 2-9pm, etc... When I was commuting in my EV1 with chargers at work, the EV1 would get plugged in around 9am when I got to work and the car would be fully charged by 10:30am since my own way commute was about 20 miles.

Public charging will likely be more during the day, but much of it will be off peak. In the charge at work or the parking garage, continue the example by realizing your car is going to be parked at work for a bit over the 8 hour day, or $20 for using the charger at $2.50 an hour even though the 20 mile commute only recharged about 6 KWh of electricity. What are you going to do? Calcaulate how long it takes to charge, skpip the last few percent of charge because the charging power is less and therefore much less economical and move your car, then go back inside to finish visiting the museum, eating dinner, shopping in the mall, your kid's baseball game or work?

But on-peak isn't 24 hours a day, and it only applies for a portion of half of the days of the year, less when you take the weekends out. And since the charge cost is $2.50/hour at ANY TIME ON PEAK OR OFF, they are making a KILLING on the electricity, particularly when the Plug In Prius pulls up for a sip. In the middle of winter at 4am in the morning, you're still paying that $2.50/hour of public charging.

 

[ElectricVehicle]

For Balboa Park, where parking is usually so scarce, I'm more worried about signs, parking enforcement, and towing, to keep the spaces available for EV's. On another thread someone noted that a sign "Electric Vehicles Only" sometimes led hybrid drivers to park there in the mistaken belief that their cars were electric.

One good sign was "No Parking Any Time - Except Electric Vehicles While Charging". That would also take care of the problem of someone charging for half an hour but parking there all day, taking advantage of the prime parking location. But that wouldn't really work, because it wouldn't allow someone to use the charging station while attending an event in the park. E.g., I'm not going to leave a performance at Old Globe Theater to move my car halfway through the first act. The simplest solution might be signs saying "No Parking Any Time - Except Electric Vehicles 3 Hours Maximum."

For a more complicated solution, the reservation system could charge something like $10 to make a reservation, waived if you actually showed up and plugged in; $1 for the first hour, $2 for the second and third hours, and $20 for each subsequent hour.

While plugged in or while connected is better and enforceable, requiring it be plugged in means you won't be Tesla'd, where a Tesla EV driver parks in front of and blocks an EV charger he/she can't use! (and is not connected using adapters.. and they don't need it as often with 200+ mile range) It also addresses the non-plug in hybrid issue.

If the charger is a scarce resource and you need multiple EVs to use it in a single day, do the same thing we've always done and is easy to enforce, just set a time limit on the parking space.

EVs and EVSE's do not provide standard indication that the vehicle is charging to enforcement personnel - parking police etc, showing that they are charging, so it is unenforceable. While connected and/or time limits work, while charging is going to be a real problem.

 

[Covinaman]

I don't get where they need to make such a killing on the electric. I could see maybe twice the rate of the electric cost but any more is a rip. Can you imagine if a gas station was making anywhere close to 50% gross margin :shock: It is not like they don't have costs especially for equipment certification in CA along with full time personnel costs.

$2.50 per hour.... give me a break. :x

I had my own posting on Charging to charge. I think that the same profit based walstreet commodity traders are licking their chops at how to rip off EV drivers. They are trying to make more profit on EV drivers then gas drivers. If you look into the commercial EV infrastructure drive (ie. google Evgo) you'll see that its big business. The early adopters will set the precident on Charge rates, with their acceptance of the prices. I would plead with EV drives to aviod paying for charges all to gether until these companys go belly up. Every time this mayors, and talking heads show up to a EV charge station opening, they are embrassing this over charge mentallity. Just Beware of whats coming.

 

[solanaleaf]

I really want EVs to succeed but I truly believe that will not happen unless they are fiscally sound for the consumer (owner), the producer (car company), and the support providers (charging infrastructure, etc). In the beginning things are expensive, so we need subsidies, but that better lead to a self-sustaining balanced market where everyone wins (or no one will win).

That also means that if early adopters on the charging infrastructure side need to charge more money, then I say let them. If they are charging too much, people will not come, and they will lower their prices. If the prices are high but people are still using it, then obviously they have found a market. We are not a captive audience. If we are, then the system is not working.

If you expect everything to be free or cheap and subsidized forever, then you are dooming the success of EVs. However, if you just want to put pressure on someone who is overcharging then I'm all for that. Anything that helps develop that balanced fiscal system where everyone wins...

 

[smkettner]

The parking lot was built and immediately parking was free. That was far more infrastructure and continued maintenance IMO than the charging station.
If the parking is free for all then the nominal charge for the electricity should near cost or just free IMO. If all others park free then why is EV parking suddenly a profit center? I don't get that.

 

[TonyWilliams]

If the parking is free for all then the nominal charge for the electricity should near cost or just free IMO. If all others park free then why is EV parking suddenly a profit center? I don't get that.

Electrics are niche, and will be for a generation more, at least. If you want plentiful chargers, and generally reserved parking spots just for you, then expect that those who provide it will want a slice of the pie.

If the price is too high for you, don't use it. If enough folks do that, the price will come down.

 

[smkettner]

I would take the back lot unmarked unreserved free charging anyday compared to reserved front row parking at $2.50 per hour.
This might even alliviate some parking issues to get some of us to park away from the front main area.
And maybe that is the answer, charge for the front row and free or at cost in the back row.

 

[wsbca]

If the price is too high for you, don't use it. If enough folks do that, the price will come down.

Fair enough - what I'm worried about is the folks who don't yet have cars, perhaps in part because they have been led to believe the infrastructure is the key (because people keep saying that loudly at infrastructure rollout events) and it's prudent to wait for it.

Then, they might start doing the math on the pay-to-play infrastructure, and that doesn't pencil out - it ends up making EVs sound more expensive to operate than ICE vehicles, so they give up on the concept of an EV, or delay even more, not realizing or accepting that the infrastructure is not really needed in most cases. So orders lag, and manufacturers get skittish, and it all fizzles, for no reason. It's potentially catastrophic. It's simply way too soon to be (talking about) trying to make lots of money on electricity for cars that don't exist yet.

 

[OilFreedom]

I was very impressed with the turn-out at the event -- especially since it was during business hours! Big thank you to everyone who brought their EV and posted the great photos. Davewill, my car was not the white one (still waiting for my Leaf). I especially loved the cars lined up, charge ports open, and all sipping juice from the Blinks at the same time!

A colleague of mine is interested in EVs, and she was amazed by 1.) the actual physical existence / delivery of a mass-market EV, and 2.) the large number of EVs at the event and already gliding around San Diego! These kinds of events are huge for raising awareness, although I wish the TV news coverage had been better. I'm sure all the cars leaving the event at the same time raised the profile among other drivers on the surrounding roads.

Regarding the cost of charging at the public Level 2s, I am not concerned. Yes, the cost will be higher than at home. However, I believe most people will typically charge at home (and/or at work if you're lucky). I see the public chargers as being a back-up charging solution or for range-extension on longer trips. Therefore, I don't see people using them as their primary means of charging. If it was the reverse, then I would be concerned.

Whatever the price for a charge, the infrastructure will support the expanded availability of EVs and also people's comfort level (less range anxiety), so I am very happy to see more public chargers even the pricing is high! I do agree with the other comments, that competition will moderate the pricing. For that to happen, we need more players and more chargers in more places. More options = greater competition. So, bring on the chargers! :mrgreen:

 

[davewill]

Folks. Prices are NOT set by costs. They are set by demand and competition. Since nobody really knows what the demand is going to be as the market establishes itself, prices are arbitrary. The market will have to shake itself out. If the prices are too high, demand will sag and profits will suffer causing cuts, or if demand is high despite the price, others will smell the profit and find ways to undercut the market. Or there may simply BE no real market for public charging and the whole thing will fall on its face (I hope not, but it's far from certain). If the charge is worth it to you, pay, if it's not, don't. The important thing now is to get infrastructure out there. We're still in the chicken and egg phase and any charging infrastructure is welcome, I'm not worried about the prices yet.

 

[smkettner]

Competition controlled pricing is over rated. Unless Blink and Chargepoint and others are side by side with plenty to use one or the other there is no real competition.

For a quick charge on the run people will seek out the low price just like we used to do with gasoline. But parked at a single serviced venue this is ripe for monopolistic overcharging.