I don't worry about the battery, the technology, if it hasn't already arrived, will be there. What I do worry about is the infrastructure. Right now there are only a handful of L3 charging stations, and these hardly adequate. If EVs are ever going to replace ICE powered vehicles, hundreds of thousands of charging stations capable of delivering a 300 mile charge in 5 or 10 minutes. Take a look around you, all those old fashioned gas pumps need to be replaced with high powered chargers.
Future 1000 mile range Leaf?
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planet4ever
Well-known member
5 or 10 minutes?? So now we're up to 450-900 kW!! I don't think you guys are thinking this through very clearly. Do you realize that even 450 kW at 400v would be 1,125 amps? We're not talking wires, now, we're talking steel bars to carry that kind of current. OK, so let's triple the voltage: 450 kW at 1200v (and man, I'd sure hate to come close to touching that!) would still be 375A, which I believe is 0000 gauge wire. Anybody want to ask their mother to wrestle with a two-inch thick cable that weighs 100 pounds and hardly bends at all in order to charge her car?
This is simple physics, folks. There are some things that are just not practical.
Yes, I can imagine a totally different kind of charging system that opens a pod door at the bottom of the car and drops steel bars that contact other bars inside a charging bay. But this not anything that could ever be an upgrade for a current LEAF.
Ray
This is simple physics, folks. There are some things that are just not practical.
Yes, I can imagine a totally different kind of charging system that opens a pod door at the bottom of the car and drops steel bars that contact other bars inside a charging bay. But this not anything that could ever be an upgrade for a current LEAF.
Ray
defiancecp
Well-known member
Sweet spot IMO would be options between 200 and 300 mile range, weighing 1/3 to 1/2 current pack. I think those are both realistic in <10yrs with tech that's already being refined. Charging I think is probably as fast as it's ever going to get; meaning that 300-miler still has a 40-minute or so charge time.
Still, by the time you've gone 300 miles, a 40 minute break is definitely not so bad. Just combine the charging stations with a nice little restaurant.
Still, by the time you've gone 300 miles, a 40 minute break is definitely not so bad. Just combine the charging stations with a nice little restaurant.
davewill
Well-known member
Are you actually suggesting that future batteries are going to break the laws of physics and deliver 400kWh of energy while only needing, say, 200kWh of energy input? Or are you positing that by then everyone's home electric service will be capable of 50kW charging rates.electricfuture said:
electricfuture
Well-known member
You are thinking in terms of today's charging technologies for tomorrow's batteries. ...[/quote]Are you actually suggesting that future batteries are going to break the laws of physics and deliver 400kWh of energy while only needing, say, 200kWh of energy input? Or are you positing that by then everyone's home electric service will be capable of 50kW charging rates.[/quote]
Input is in kW HOURS not just kW. It is all about the amp limits. Surely you are not questioning whether Tesla's 300 mile battery pack will be capable of charging from your garage - it will just take longer than a 100 mile pack at the same amperage/voltage. Right now their 300 mile battery apparently weighs at least 1500# which is quite literally a drag on performance and getting the weight down with the same energy density is the challenge - just like the lap top battery packs have already achieved.
If you think this can't happen some people still don't believe that man went to the moon. When I tell people that there are 2 electric vehicles up there since the early 70's, they just look confounded.
Input is in kW HOURS not just kW. It is all about the amp limits. Surely you are not questioning whether Tesla's 300 mile battery pack will be capable of charging from your garage - it will just take longer than a 100 mile pack at the same amperage/voltage. Right now their 300 mile battery apparently weighs at least 1500# which is quite literally a drag on performance and getting the weight down with the same energy density is the challenge - just like the lap top battery packs have already achieved.
If you think this can't happen some people still don't believe that man went to the moon. When I tell people that there are 2 electric vehicles up there since the early 70's, they just look confounded.
davewill
Well-known member
davewill said:
Huh? That's all we've been saying. A 1000 mile pack would take a really long time to charge at the rates that can be managed at home. Charging an entire 300 mile pack is just within reason with existing L2 at 240v, 70 amps. More than tripling the range would require some serious changes in home electric distribution.electricfuture said:
P.S. is there a reason you keep mangling the quotes when you reply?
smkettner
Well-known member
A 1000 mile pack would eliminate the need to QC. Who exactly will be driving 1800 miles in a day?
IMO a 6.6 even 3.3 kW charger would be just fine. And of course a 50kW QC would also be fine... 30 minutes of charging will still take you a long way.
IMO a 6.6 even 3.3 kW charger would be just fine. And of course a 50kW QC would also be fine... 30 minutes of charging will still take you a long way.
...and barring any meteor impact damage, they probably still work! :lol:electricfuture said:
Any reason for the 15 minutes? Back-calculating I get 75kWh battery and 4.0 mi/kWh efficiency, so that's not unreasonable. I guess that's a good rule of thumb? 1 mile range every 15 minutes for each kW the charger gives you.planet4ever said:
300kW at 480V/3-Phase works out to 361 amps. That is quite doable. Absolutely not practical and ridiculously dangerous for anyone without special training and equipment to handle, but doable. Of course you can up the voltage but that just makes things more dangerous.electricfuture said:
You can make the most awesome battery in the universe and it won't mean jack s*** if you only have a 50 amp breaker to work with. The battery is not the bottleneck with today's charging and hasn't been for quite some time, so examples of laptop/cell phone batteries mean nothing.
Providing you are able to charge more than you drive, you are correct. If you drive more miles in a single, typical day than you are somehow able to replenish in that same day, you're going to run a deficit and eventually run out. Using the above rule of thumb, combined with a 6kW charger and 14 hours/day charging time, you're still limited to 336 miles/day. (miles recharged = 56 * kW as per above rule of thumb).smkettner said:
That's a heck of a lot of miles for one day and it makes a 1000 mile battery seem kinda wasteful IMHO.
=Smidge=
evnow
Well-known member
After 300 miles of driving most people won't mind a 15 to 30 minute break. So, we don't really need to be faster than that - just because the current gas pumps can be used within 5 minutes. Afterall, people wait for 15 minutes or more at a Costco gas station to save $2.
Let us say 300 miles requires a 100kwh battery. A 30 minute charge would require some 400 amps @480V. This might require an attendant rather than self serve. Could even be some kind of an automated under the car delivery method.
Let us say 300 miles requires a 100kwh battery. A 30 minute charge would require some 400 amps @480V. This might require an attendant rather than self serve. Could even be some kind of an automated under the car delivery method.
smkettner said:
Depending on cost, I would opt for the 300 to 400 range. With the 6.6kw charger of the my2013 (40amp) that would be 16 hrs for a complete charge, and about an hr or so with the QC to 80%. I see no need of 1,000 mile range.
smkettner said:
The 3.3 kw charger would take about 80 hrs to charge a 240kWh battery. (current 24kWh x 10). You may never have a dead battery, but assuming an 8 hr day charge time, you will still be limited to 100 miles/day. You make a 300 mile one way trip, and you have to spend 24 hrs to recharge. 3.3 kw charger is just not prime time. 6.6 kw would half that so 40 hrs to recharge. Drive somewhere say 600 miles, that's a good one day trip. Assume 1hr stop for lunch and recharge at 6.6 would give you 25 miles. So at the end of the day you have 425 left in the battery, but during the night you put 200 miles back in with 8 hrs charging. Next morning you have 625 miles available, your are at your vacation and don't need to drive much. Each night you added another 200 back. It is doable.
smkettner
Well-known member
N952JL said:
8hr day charge time assumes you are driving the other 16 hours? I honestly think it would work for most except if you are driving cross country driving 500 miles per day and only charging 12 hours per day. Right now 3.3 kW charging and 100 mile total range works well for most. Consider if you had a 900 mile reserve... how bad could it be? And yes 6.6 kW would be better for a real road warrior.
I am just saying with 1000 mile range you do not need a 400kW QC to even use the thing.
The occasional trip 400 miles out and back would be very doable. Just stay one night, I know I would after a 400 mile drive.
Everyone quoting the Loooong full charge time must not have a LEAF because we all know that a turtle to 100% charge is fairly rare event.
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
"if" battery technology is still used for a 300-400 mile pack (anything beyond that wont use batteries) a QC station would be automated (mostly to insure profitability since it would have to be running most of the time) and would likely use multiple lower voltage feeds.
it makes more sense to charge larger packs as several smaller packs.
it makes more sense to charge larger packs as several smaller packs.
Herm
Well-known member
If you can afford to put a 1000 mile pack in a Leaf, manufacturers will definitely be able to offer L3 chargers with large buffer packs built-in at low cost (using 240V single phase at 125A for example).. it would drive down the effective installation cost of L3 chargers.
electricfuture
Well-known member
[/quote]Huh? That's all we've been saying. A 1000 mile pack would take a really long time to charge at the rates that can be managed at home. Charging an entire 300 mile pack is just within reason with existing L2 at 240v, 70 amps. More than tripling the range would require some serious changes in home electric distribution.
P.S. is there a reason you keep mangling the quotes when you reply?[/quote]
Well I tried not to mess up your quote this time - sorry. Looks like we are on the same page - if you agree that in a few years a 1000 mile battery could be available. Most likely you would lease the battery at the point of origin and exchange it for fully charged one at your destination. Some entrepreneur with high speed charging equipment will figure this out.
I guess I am over sensitive to the naysayers. In 1998 I had a heated discussion with an electrical engineer who had worked on the EV-1 project for GM and he was emphatic that an electric car would never be practical and that the entire project was a waste of time and money. I wish I had his email address. To me it is not farfetched that we could be generating the electricity on board with a small ion drive within 50 years and this conversation would become quaint.
P.S. is there a reason you keep mangling the quotes when you reply?[/quote]
Well I tried not to mess up your quote this time - sorry. Looks like we are on the same page - if you agree that in a few years a 1000 mile battery could be available. Most likely you would lease the battery at the point of origin and exchange it for fully charged one at your destination. Some entrepreneur with high speed charging equipment will figure this out.
I guess I am over sensitive to the naysayers. In 1998 I had a heated discussion with an electrical engineer who had worked on the EV-1 project for GM and he was emphatic that an electric car would never be practical and that the entire project was a waste of time and money. I wish I had his email address. To me it is not farfetched that we could be generating the electricity on board with a small ion drive within 50 years and this conversation would become quaint.
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