Ghosn says Leaf will get a new battery.

[palmermd]

that is a 56% increase, and if they are doing this same chemistry in a pouch like the current cells, they should have better energy to weight due to less packaging of the small 3.1Ah cells versus the 33Ah pouches.

I doubt it would be the same chemistry.

Well, that was the speculation that Jay Cole brought up in the article that is the source of this thread and the 75% increase conversation.

 

[Deleted member 1622]

More of the same cycle from this forum. Vague info and rumor-mongering from Nissan and the EV press, then a whole lot of conjecture based on near-zero info. I used to think it was all entertaining, now I just get annoyed by Nissan's extremely close-to-the-vest communication strategy. My message for Nissan is... we are the few, the proud, the early adopters who used our checkbooks to validate your new technology. We deserve to get early and accurate information, and clear instructions about how current Leaf owners can get in on tech improvements (retrofit, trade-in, whatever it's going to be).
Maybe it does have something to do with a Japanese culture that we don't understand, as previous posters have suggested. Sorry, not an excuse... you're producing these things in Tennessee, for God's sake, and many of your customers are American, so it's time to invest in an over-priced business consultant who knows what American consumers want. We want honesty, forthright info, and some reward for loyalty and the risk we took.
All that said, hooray for bigger battery capacity and all Leaf upgrades. Even if I never upgrade my 2011 Leaf, I will be happy... But I will still want the next new thing (yes, I will sell my iPhone on eBay to get the iPhone 5)!
Josh

 

[Herm]

Maybe it does have something to do with a Japanese culture that we don't understand, as previous posters have suggested.

It has to do with not tipping off your competitors and also killing sales of your existing models.. and I think the American automotive industry invented it..

Sorry, information is very valuable and will be doled out to best benefit the company, not YOU.

 

[DaveEV]

Well, that was the speculation that Jay Cole brought up in the article that is the source of this thread and the 75% increase conversation.

75% in either the anode or cathode (it was one or the other), will not lead to a total capacity increase anywhere near that without a corresponding increase in the other.

Don't expect more than a 20% or so total increase in capacity for the same price at most.

 

[palmermd]

Well, that was the speculation that Jay Cole brought up in the article that is the source of this thread and the 75% increase conversation.

75% in either the anode or cathode (it was one or the other), will not lead to a total capacity increase anywhere near that without a corresponding increase in the other.

Don't expect more than a 20% or so total increase in capacity for the same price at most.

Well, like I said in the earlier posts on the first and third pages of this thread, I don't have any information on the price, but if they change the chemistry to the NMC type (similar to Panasonic) then a 50-70% increase in energy density is achievable. All that means is that they would be able to put more capacity in the same enclosure, or the same capacity in the same enclosure with room to add the TMS.

The quote from Ghosn was that they have the new battery facility online and they can produce battery packs for less cost. Jay's speculation was that they can now also increase density. I'm not sure if both of these are true at the same time, all I was doing was verifying that it is true that if they switch to the NMC type chemistry that his claims of energy density could be true. What I found was that while slightly exaggerated, they seem to hold up.

 

[DaveEV]

Well, like I said in the earlier posts on the first and third pages of this thread, I don't have any information on the price, but if they change the chemistry to the NMC type (similar to Panasonic) then a 50-70% increase in energy density is achievable. All that means is that they would be able to put more capacity in the same enclosure, or the same capacity in the same enclosure with room to add the TMS.

There's no way that Nissan will go to a NMC chemistry. It's even less tolerant of heat/abuse than the current LiMn cells.

Edit: Clarification I thought palmermd was referring to LCO batteries, not NMC = LiNiMnCo. I'm not aware of any Panasonic batteries that use a NMC chemistry, hence the confusion.

The Tesla absolutely needs thermal management. Without it, the cells will overheat if you push the pack hard. In contrast, even with nothing but passive cooling and a case that doesn't conduct heat all that well, battery pack temps don't rise much even when racing the LEAF at Laguna Seca. Compare that to the Active-E which overheated the pack to the point of limiting power despite being water cooled.

 

[palmermd]

Well, like I said in the earlier posts on the first and third pages of this thread, I don't have any information on the price, but if they change the chemistry to the NMC type (similar to Panasonic) then a 50-70% increase in energy density is achievable. All that means is that they would be able to put more capacity in the same enclosure, or the same capacity in the same enclosure with room to add the TMS.

There's no way that Nissan will go to a NMC chemistry. It's even less tolerant of heat/abuse than the current LiMn cells.

The Tesla absolutely needs thermal management. Without it, the cells will overheat if you push the pack hard. In contrast, even with nothing but passive cooling and a case that doesn't conduct heat all that well, battery pack temps don't rise much even when racing the LEAF at Laguna Seca. Compare that to the Active-E which overheated the pack to the point of limiting power despite being water cooled.

I agree it was a strange suggestion by Jay, but I'm only following HIS logic. MY logic based on what Carlos said is that they have now finished the factory in TN and due to this, they can now build the packs at a lower cost. This will allow them some options in how they market the car.

 

[JimSouCal]

It has to do with not tipping off your competitors and also killing sales of your existing models.. and I think the American automotive industry invented it..

Maybe the first formulations of strategic withholding of information form the basis for the beginnings of history and myth (and the faulted stated of human condition that includes a contingency of whiners).

Speaking of whining, I still think that Nissan should provide an upgrade path to both new software and battery developments, simply because it is a good long term business strategy (in stark contrast to the supposed planned obsolescence strategy also seemingly invented by Detroit auto).

 

[ztanos]

I agree it was a strange suggestion by Jay, but I'm only following HIS logic. MY logic based on what Carlos said is that they have now finished the factory in TN and due to this, they can now build the packs at a lower cost. This will allow them some options in how they market the car.

I understood Jay's logic to read that they can use the same chemistry and because of the fact that the batteries are cheaper, larger batteries will cost the same price. The downfall of this is that it will be a heavier car. But it will still have more capacity.

 

[palmermd]

I agree it was a strange suggestion by Jay, but I'm only following HIS logic. MY logic based on what Carlos said is that they have now finished the factory in TN and due to this, they can now build the packs at a lower cost. This will allow them some options in how they market the car.

I understood Jay's logic to read that they can use the same chemistry and because of the fact that the batteries are cheaper, larger batteries will cost the same price. The downfall of this is that it will be a heavier car. But it will still have more capacity.

Actually the NMC battery will be for the same energy 60% less weight and 70% less volume than the current chemistry (for the cells themselves...of course you need to add a TMS which will change all that).

 

[SanDust]

Well, that was the speculation that Jay Cole brought up in the article that is the source of this thread and the 75% increase conversation.

I was under the impression that the Panasonic cells are derivative of Li-cobalt and use far more cobalt than, for example, the NMC cells from Envia/Argonne, which use very little. I'm assuming the Nissan cells are more like the Argonne cells than the Panasonic cells.

 

[DaveEV]

Well, that was the speculation that Jay Cole brought up in the article that is the source of this thread and the 75% increase conversation.

I was under the impression that the Panasonic cells are derivative of Li-cobalt and use far more cobalt than, for example, the NMC cells from Envia/Argonne, which use very little. I'm assuming the Nissan cells are more like the Argonne cells than the Panasonic cells.

Yep, that's how I understand it - I have my abbreviations mixed up and though palmermd was referring to Panasonic LCO type cells (used by Tesla), not the new NMC cells.

If you look up specs of NMO vs NMC cells, the NMC cells hold about 25% more energy per weight/volume as I estimated earlier.

Supposedly, NMC batteries have better calendar life compared to NMO as well - at least according to this presentation: http://www.transportation.anl.gov/batteries/us_china_conference/docs/roundtable1/adv_battery_chem_amine.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There's some other interesting battery tech talk in that presentation as well.

 

[Volt3939]

One thing I have learned following EV development for 20 years: A press release is not a finished salable battery/car that is ready for delivery. When I see the actual product and can test it in the real world, then I will believe it exists.

 

[palmermd]

Well, that was the speculation that Jay Cole brought up in the article that is the source of this thread and the 75% increase conversation.

I was under the impression that the Panasonic cells are derivative of Li-cobalt and use far more cobalt than, for example, the NMC cells from Envia/Argonne, which use very little. I'm assuming the Nissan cells are more like the Argonne cells than the Panasonic cells.

Yep, that's how I understand it - I have my abbreviations mixed up and though palmermd was referring to Panasonic LCO type cells (used by Tesla), not the new NMC cells.

If you look up specs of NMO vs NMC cells, the NMC cells hold about 25% more energy per weight/volume as I estimated earlier.

Supposedly, NMC batteries have better calendar life compared to NMO as well - at least according to this presentation: http://www.transportation.anl.gov/batteries/us_china_conference/docs/roundtable1/adv_battery_chem_amine.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There's some other interesting battery tech talk in that presentation as well.

That was my mistake, I put in the word Panasonic, but it does not matter who makes them (well actually it will be AESC), Jay was referring to NMC cells in his article.

 

[DaveEV]

Well, that was the speculation that Jay Cole brought up in the article that is the source of this thread and the 75% increase conversation.

I was under the impression that the Panasonic cells are derivative of Li-cobalt and use far more cobalt than, for example, the NMC cells from Envia/Argonne, which use very little. I'm assuming the Nissan cells are more like the Argonne cells than the Panasonic cells.

That was my mistake, I put in the word Panasonic, but it does not matter who makes them (well actually it will be AESC), Jay was referring to NMC cells in his article.

Correct. My main point was that the 75% increase in capacity Jay referred to was in the cathode only. Without a similar increase in capacity on the anode, the capacity of the battery won't go up nearly as much.

One thing I have learned following EV development for 20 years: A press release is not a finished salable battery/car that is ready for delivery. When I see the actual product and can test it in the real world, then I will believe it exists.

So true. And we don't even have an official press release yet. Just a sentence here or there that slipped out during an interview.

 

[planet4ever]

One thing I have learned following EV development for 20 years: A press release is not a finished salable battery/car that is ready for delivery. When I see the actual product and can test it in the real world, then I will believe it exists.

So true. And we don't even have an official press release yet. Just a sentence here or there that slipped out during an interview.

Thank you Volt3939 and drees for a very succinct, accurate, and tempering wrap-up of this thread.

Ray

 

[EVDRIVER]

If it sounds too god to be true it's likely a battery story.

 

[palmermd]

If it sounds too god to be true it's likely a battery story.

first we are waiting for Jesus before we can expect an answer from Nissan and now there are two gods? What is going on here today?

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&hilit=jesus&start=3770

 

[EVDRIVER]

If it sounds too god to be true it's likely a battery story.

first we are waiting for Jesus before we can expect an answer from Nissan and now there are two gods? What is going on here today?

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&hilit=jesus&start=3770

There is no god, therefore there are no new batteries. We don't even know if there are batteries in the LEAF, it could be lots of these inside:

http://ruthielewis.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/HAMSTER-WHEEL.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[adric22]

http://ruthielewis.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/HAMSTER-WHEEL.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Do the hamsters generate electricity for the electric drive or are do they power the wheels directly?