help in deciding to purchase or lease a leaf

[Kleanhiker]

Hello everybody and thank you for hosting a forum like this where we can ask questions about this fantastic car.

I am hoping to get some more advice on whether or not a purchase or lease option is best for my family. I am waiting on some more lease information from my 3 local dealerships but I thought while I wait for them to get back to me, I'd ask here for some guidance.

My wife and I have planned that we will be able to trade off during the day who can drive the leaf. She drives it during the school hours and then after school she teaches at home. At that point, I become cab driver for my two kids and then will use the leaf for the rest of the day. We averaged out the mileage to be about 60 miles everyday for around 21,900 miles a year.

If we lease for 3 years, we will have to prepay for those extra miles and I'm waiting for the figures from the dealership to see how much more that will be.

If we decide to buy the car, it looks like for a SV option with the premium package and cameras, that the cost would for use would be roughly $500 a month if I calculated the payments correctly.

My questions are:
1. If the lease and buying the car comes to $500 a month each...which would be better to do? Reason I ask this is that if we do drive 60,000 miles in 3 years what is the battery going to be like? I personally think if we put that many miles on the car, I'd rather just give it back at the end and be done with it. But the flip side of owning the car is that we don't have to worry about the miles, just replacing the battery.
2. If we do buy the car, can we apply the rebates to the payment of car after the fact and then lower the monthly payments then or is that something I need to speak with the financing company first to find out if there is a penalty for doing such things.
3. Would buying a used 2011 or 2012 car be better option for us as then the mileage factor isn't something to worry about.
4. Will a dealership even allow us to purchase 18,000 more miles to the lease?

I guess what I really need to do is wait and see what the lease costs will be for those extra miles. Any thoughts would be great. I do live in California so there is some state rebate as well.

Thanks,
Matthew

 

[derkraut]

Hello Mathew,
Where do you live? winter/summer temps will be important if you plan to drive 60+ miles a day on a single charge

 

[WetEV]

I am hoping to get some more advice on whether or not a purchase or lease option is best for my family.

Lease vs purchase comes down to both emotional factors and cost.

The emotional factors depend on a lot of things.

In terms of cost, the climate that you live in will determine about what the battery temperature, and thus battery life is. Now, it is more complex, as battery chemistries are changing with time, and are likely to improve lifetime. And the local electric vs gasoline prices matters a bit on expected cost. But one of the larger expected costs over a 20 year life of a Leaf would be battery replacement.

In a very cool climate (Eastsound, WA) for example, battery life with the current battery is probably much more than a decade, might never need replacement. In a very hot climate (Furnace Creek, CA), for example, battery life will be short, at most a few years. As battery replacement costs are unknown after the warrantee, where you live will matter a lot for the economics of owning vs leasing. Also the battery pack will likely get cheaper, more capacity, and last longer with time. So in a cool place, buying now makes economic sense, and in a warmer place leasing makes economic sense.

 

[Kleanhiker]

I forgot California is a huge state. We live in Goleta/Santa Barbara area so the climate temperature is pretty stable.

 

[WetEV]

I am hoping to get some more advice on whether or not a purchase or lease option is best for my family.

Didn't mention taxes. If you lease you get the federal tax rebate effectively added to the downpayment. If you buy, you need to be paying as much in taxes as the rebate to take full advantage of it. If you don't pay that much in taxes, a lease might be a better deal. One potential twist would be a lease with the plan of purchase at the end of the lease. Minimize the miles and anything else to reduce the cost of the lease, and then buy the car at the end of the term.

 

[Kleanhiker]

I am hoping to get some more advice on whether or not a purchase or lease option is best for my family.

Didn't mention taxes. If you lease you get the federal tax rebate effectively added to the downpayment. If you buy, you need to be paying as much in taxes as the rebate to take full advantage of it. If you don't pay that much in taxes, a lease might be a better deal. One potential twist would be a lease with the plan of purchase at the end of the lease. Minimize the miles and anything else to reduce the cost of the lease, and then buy the car at the end of the term.

Good point on the taxes eating up the federal tax credit. Didn't think about that option! If we allow the car to just be mine, I could minimize the mileage but my wife is the one who really wants it to help her budget. I'd like to lease 2 of them for the amount of money we'd save in gas. I guess that could be the 3rd option. Lease one sv and one s model for a total of $500ish a month. Hmmm...

 

[ksnogas2112]

I am hoping to get some more advice on whether or not a purchase or lease option is best for my family.

Didn't mention taxes. If you lease you get the federal tax rebate effectively added to the downpayment. If you buy, you need to be paying as much in taxes as the rebate to take full advantage of it. If you don't pay that much in taxes, a lease might be a better deal. One potential twist would be a lease with the plan of purchase at the end of the lease. Minimize the miles and anything else to reduce the cost of the lease, and then buy the car at the end of the term.

Good point on the taxes eating up the federal tax credit. Didn't think about that option! If we allow the car to just be mine, I could minimize the mileage but my wife is the one who really wants it to help her budget. I'd like to lease 2 of them for the amount of money we'd save in gas. I guess that could be the 3rd option. Lease one sv and one s model for a total of $500ish a month. Hmmm...

If you lease 2 you would get federal tax incentives on both vehicles and the $7500 would come off both leases. I don't know if the California specific incentives are a per year/per person so you want to check that to be sure you can get the $2500? on both leases. Plus do the math on the cost of the extra miles on the lease vs leasing 2.

 

[Kleanhiker]

I just got my first quote back from the dealership and what I'm surprised is the residual value of the car at only being $13,900.

Would it be safe to assume that they take off the $10,000 for federal and state tax refund (california) and then depreciated the car only by $10,000 for the 3 years we lease it?

Option #1
Drive Off fees only: $1,400 <> 35 Remaining Payments of: $370.88 + tax
<>
Option #2
$2,000 Total Downpayment <> 35 Remaining payments of : $354.92 + tax
<>
Option #3
$2,500 Total Downpayment <> 35 Remaining payments of : $341.63 + tax
<>
Option #4
$3,000 Total Downpayment <> 35 Remaining payments of : $328.33+ tax
<>
Option #5
$3,500 Total Downpayment <> 35 Remaining payments of : $315.03 + tax
<>
Option #2
$4,000 Total Downpayment <> 35 Remaining payments of : $299.73 + tax


The Residual for all Options (Option to buy the vehicle) is the same at $13,905.15

The MSRP of the vehicle is : $33,915.00

 

[TonyWilliams]

The Honda Fit EV and Toyota Rav4 EV each have unlimited mileage options.

Currently, the Honda is near impossible to acquire. The Rav4, they can't "give away". I recommend the latter for the miles you have planned.

$444 per month, ZERO DOWN, unlimited miles.

Carson Toyota near LAX.


http://www.buyatoyota.com/Specials/SpecialOffers.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Offer Ends 9/30/2013:

****************

CURRENT ADVERTISED PURCHASE OFFER

No stated Toyota discount, but typically $7500

0.0% APR for 36 months, 0.0% APR for 48 months or 0.0% APR for 60 months. Includes ToyotaCare

0.0% APR includes 36 monthly payments of $27.78 per $1000 borrowed. 0.0% APR includes 48 monthly payments of $20.83 per $1000 borrowed. 0.0% APR includes 60 monthly payments of $16.67 per $1000 borrowed.

For example 10% down. Down payment varies with credit. Available through Toyota Financial Services to qualified Tier 1 + (plus), Tier 1, Tier 2 and Tier 3 credit customers. Available on a new 2013 RAV4EV purchased out of dealer stock by midnight 9/30/2013. Offers cannot be combined. See your Toyota dealer for details.

*********************************

CURRENT ADVERTISED LEASE OFFER

$299 a month plus tax for 36 months, limited miles
$329 a month plus tax for 36 months, Special Payment for Unlimited Mileage
$3,499 Drive-off
After $15,400 Lease Cash is applied

NOTE: July 2013, this was called "$15,400 TFS Subvention Lease Cash" Apparently, you get to pay sales tax on the discount!!! CAVEAT EMPTOR

Sales tax not included and is calculated (estimated at $1,600) before lease cash is applied. Includes ToyotaCare

Lease Cash must be applied to lease down payment. Lease available only through Toyota Financial Services to qualified buyers. Offer excludes applicable taxes and fees. No security deposit required. You pay excess wear and tear, plus $.15 per mile over 36,000 miles at lease end. Lease payments may vary from dealer to dealer based on final negotiated price and equipment chosen. Lease offer is example only and applies only to new 2013 Toyota RAV4 EV Model #4480. Example vehicle may not be available at all dealers. Must be leased from new car dealer stock by midnight 09/30/2013. Lease example requires dealer contribution. Individual dealer lease terms may vary.

********************

TYPICAL PURCHASE deals for NEW (not used) should look like this:

New Rav4 EV (not used)

$2000 - $4000 typical dealers discounts (the dealers are getting 2% "holdback", and the salesperson gets $1000 from Toyota USA and the sales manager get $500... don't worry about hammering them on a good deal)

$50,870 Retail MSRP (inc floor mats and destination, add $395 for "Blizzard Pearl" white paint)

($2,000-$4,000) Dealer Discount

($7,500 - $10,000) Toyota Cash with 0.0% interest for up to 60 months

$80 doc fee

$36,870 - $41,370 net cost plus tax and license. This is what you will pay in the dealership without tax or shipping from California to your out of state location

$5,000 sales tax and license plates in California. Your state may vary wildly

$500 - $1,000 shipping to you from the dealer, if applicable


Then:

($7,500) Fed Tax Credit (you will get this with your taxes with IRS form 8936)
($2,500) CA State Rebate (you will get this when you mail in a form)

CAVEAT EMPTOR: The dealer may try to sell you a low mileage "used" car so that they can claim and keep the government incentives.


$26,870 - $31,370 Total Net Cost plus tax/license/shipping to you, if applicable

********************************

TYPICAL LEASE

From Dianne @ Carson Toyota:

$0 down, $415 monthly, 36 months, $20k-ish residual. For a few bucks more, you get UNLIMITED miles; $0 down, $445, $19k-ish residual.

Yes, you still get the $2,500) California State Rebate (you will get this when you mail in a form). No federal tax credit.

**************************

$7500 federal credit (IRS form 8936) applies to new cars only with purchase only, not on a lease. Toyota does not normally pass this credit to you on a lease - CHANGE FOR JULY 2013, they have begun offering you the $7500 fed tax credit in the lease.

$2,500 California state rebate for new cars only. Apply here for the Clean Vehicle Rebate Project (CVRP) which is funded by the California Air Resources Board (CARB) and administered statewide by the California Center for Sustainable Energy (CCSE), 9325 Sky Park Court, #100, San Diego, CA 92123. Your state or province may also have incentives for out of state sales.

CAVEAT EMPTOR: known dealer scam is to sell you a "used" car and keep the tax credit.

***************************

The only differences between a 2013 and 2012 model year is the Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) has a "D" the replaces the "C" in the 8th digit from the right. The 2014 will likely have an E. You will find the VIN through the front window, looking from the outside on the driver's side, at the bottom.

I do not expect that there will be many 2012 model year cars still available. The 2014 model year will presumably be the last of the run after 2600 total are produced.

At the current sales rate of 231 in August 2013, the remaining 1660 Rav4 EVs to be sold will be sold out by the first week of April 2014.

http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=418#p418" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No, the Rav4 EV won't be extended or continued after 2600 are built.

http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4143#p4143" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

***********************************************

Sales tax - on an "in-state" purchase, you pay the applicable tax for your county/city. For an in state lease, you pay a "use tax" on the monthly payment. For out-of-state, you pay nothing to California with a proper Bill of Laden from a shipping company.

DO NOT TAKE DELIVERY IN CALIFORNIA

...unless you want to pay California taxes!!! You will pay applicable taxes in your out-of-state jurisdiction. There's a whole thread devoted to out-of-state purchases and leases.

**************************

USED Rav4 EV 's:

If you buy used, even with almost zero miles on the car, you not only lose the tax credits and rebates, you may also lose the ability to "Lemon Law" the car should it come to that.

***************************

NOTE TO ALL OUT OF STATE BUYERS:

I recommend having a local California current Rav4 EV owner test drive your car at the dealer before shipping to you out of state. My particular car had excessive motor noise from new, so it will be easy to identify the same situation before the car is shipped to you.


***************************

IF YOUR CAR IS DELIVERED WITHOUT FUNCTIONING INTERIOR LIGHTS:

A pin is located in the engine bay passenger side fuse box to activate the lights. Inside that fuse box, there is a white "fuse" without any number and that is the "pin". Under the fuse cover, there is a location labeled "short". Put the "pin" into the "short" slot and interior function like light, garage door opener, external door handle switch will be activated.

***********************************

IF YOUR CAR IS DELIVERED WITH A REGISTRATION FOR AN OIL BURNING CAR INSTEAD OF AN ELECTRIC CAR:

Make sure your dealership ticked the correct box for "motive power" on the registration. If they incorrectly entered "gas", you'll need to get it corrected. In California, the DMV requests that the dealership complete Sections G & H of form "Reg 256". For section G, the sample response given was:

"Due to a clerical error on the Report of Sale, the motive power was entered as "gas (G)", when the actual motive power for this vehicle is "100% electric (E)". Please correct. No fraud intended."

The dealer then signs and dates Section H.

************************************

IF YOU WANT YOUR CAR DELIVERED WITH SPECIFIC SETTINGS:

You will likely want your dealer to set the reverse beeper to a single beep. I highly recommend writing this in the sales contract, particularly for an out of state sale. You will not like this distracting beeping in reverse. Also, I recommend setting the auto door locks to whatever setting you want prior to delivery (always unlocked, lock when in Drive, only unlock driver's door, etc).

****************************

CALIFORNIA CONTRACT CANCELLATION POLICY

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d05/vc11709_2.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

California law does not provide for a "cooling-off" or other cancellation period for vehicle lease or purchase contracts. Therefore, you cannot later cancel such a contract simply because you change your mind, decide the vehicle costs too much, or wish you had acquired a different vehicle. After you sign a motor vehicle purchase or lease contract, it may only be canceled with the agreement of the seller or lessor or for legal cause, such as fraud.

************************

HOV LANE STICKERS

Apply for your California HOV lane stickers (less than $20) after you have a license plate issued to your car:

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/vr/decal.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

************************************************

There is only one factory Rav4 EV option: Color

Blizzard Pearl white (about $395 extra)
Blue (most popular color)
Silver (least popular color)

**********************************************

ONLY AVAILABLE AT THESE TOYOTA DEALERS IN CALIFORNIA

http://www.toyota.com/rav4ev/#!/Welcome" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


CENTRAL CALIFORNIA

Toyota of Santa Maria 700 E. Betteravia Road Santa Maria , CA 93454 (805) 928-3881

Toyota San Luis Obispo 12350 Los Osos Valley Rd. San Luis Obispo , CA 93405 (805) 543-7001

Salinas Toyota 700 Auto Center Circle Salinas , CA 93907 (831) 444-0700


LOS ANGELES

Cabe Toyota 2895 Long Beach Blvd. Long Beach , CA 90806 (562) 595-7411

Penske Toyota 9136 E. Firestone Blvd Downey , CA 90241 (562) 861-3300

AutoNation Toyota Cerritos 18700 Studebaker Road Cerritos , CA 90703 (562) 860-6561

AutoNation Toyota Buena Park 6400 Beach Blvd. Buena Park , CA 90621 (714) 522-6144

DCH Toyota of Torrance 2909 Pacific Coast Hwy Torrance , CA 90505 (310) 325-7500

Toyota of Hollywood 6000 Hollywood Blvd. Los Angeles , CA 90028 (323) 275-9160

Toyota of Downtown L.A. 1600 S Figueroa Los Angeles , CA 90015 (213) 748-8301

Carson Toyota 1333 E 223rd St Carson , CA 90745 (310) 549-3131

Toyota Santa Monica 801 Santa Monica Blvd. Santa Monica , CA 90401 (866) 324-2046

Marina Del Rey Toyota 4636 Lincoln Boulevard Marina Del Rey , CA 90292 (866) 823-8348

Manhattan Beach Toyota 1500 N. Sepulveda Blvd Manhattan Beach , CA 90266 (310) 546-4848

Culver City Toyota 9077 Washington Blvd. Culver City , CA 90232 (310) 559-3777

Hamer Toyota 11069 Sepulveda Blvd Mission Hills , CA 91345 (818) 365-9621

Keyes Toyota 5855 Van Nuys Blvd Van Nuys , CA 91401 (818) 782-0122

Bob Smith Toyota 3333 Foothill Blvd. La Crescenta , CA 91214 (818) 248-9363

DCH Toyota of Simi Valley 2380 First Street Simi Valley , CA 93065 (805) 526-7500

Toyota of Glendale 1260 South Brand Blvd. Glendale , CA 91204 (323) 461-7228

Claremont Toyota 508 Auto Center Drive Claremont , CA 91711 (909) 625-1500

West Covina Toyota 1800 E Garvey Avenue West Covina , CA 91791 (626) 859-7400

Toyota of Glendora 1949 Auto Centre Drive Glendora , CA 91740 (909) 305-2000

Longo Toyota 3534 North Peck Road El Monte , CA 91731 (626) 580-6000

Wondries Toyota 1543 West Main Street Alhambra , CA 91801 (626) 289-8000

Toyota of The Desert 68105 Kyle Road Cathedral City , CA 92234 (760) 328-0871

John Elway's Crown Toyota 1201 Kettering Drive Ontario , CA 91761 (909) 390-9700

DCH Toyota of Oxnard 1631 Auto Center Drive Oxnard , CA 93030 (805) 988-7900


ORANGE COUNTY

Capistrano Toyota 33395 Camino Capistrano San Juan Capist.. , CA 92675 (949) 493-4100

South Coast Toyota 1966 Harbor Blvd. Costa Mesa , CA 92627 (949) 722-2000

AutoNation Toyota Irvine 9101 Research Drive Irvine , CA 92618 (949) 585-6888

Tustin Toyota 36 Auto Center Drive Tustin , CA 92782 (714) 832-3111

 

[Kleanhiker]

Thanks for the tip. I may look into the other option. I've just got another quote based on the miles we will drive and the cost now comes to $430ish a month. This price range is now at the point where I may want to look into purchasing the car instead of leasing.

Time for more research.

 

[Kleanhiker]

Well my local dealer just said for today only he will do a lease for 63,000 miles for a SV model with the premium package for $392.80 + tax.

Hmmm...that leaves me 4 hours to decide if it is worth it.

Seems doable.

 

[pchilds]

If you are in CA, you can get a RAV4 EV, with unlimited mileage for only $50 a month more, twice the range, 10 times the utility.

 

[TimLee]

This price range is now at the point where I may want to look into purchasing the car instead of leasing.

Purchasing is a HUGE gamble on a LEAF battery that has already been clearly demonstrated to be far inferior to what was projected. :shock: :shock:
I don't like leases, never have leased, but at least you know what it is costing you for the next three years IF you can stay under the mileage limit.

 

[planet4ever]

If we lease for 3 years, we will have to prepay for those extra miles

Are you sure of this? I thought most people just waited until end of lease and then paid the extra if they turned it in. If you decide to purchase the car for the residual, you don't have to pay anything for the extra miles.

I just got my first quote back from the dealership and what I'm surprised is the residual value of the car at only being $13,900. Would it be safe to assume that they take off the $10,000 for federal and state tax refund (california) and then depreciated the car only by $10,000 for the 3 years we lease it?

Not quite. They do take off the $7,500 Federal tax credit, but not the $2,500 CA rebate. The CA rebate has nothing to do with taxes, and is something you have to apply for yourself after you take possession of the vehicle.

Drive Off fees only: $1,400 <> 35 Remaining Payments of: $370.88 + tax
<snip>
$4,000 Total Downpayment <> 35 Remaining payments of : $299.73 + tax

The general guideline for leases is to put down as little as possible. The problem is that if the car should be totaled, you lose the down payment. That is stated explicitly in the lease agreement fine print that you sign.

I haven't kept up with the threads here that evaluate lease offers, but those don't sound like a very good deals to me. Check out what they are saying on 2013 Nissan Leaf Lease Information.

Ray

 

[Deleted member 9549]

I'd suggest leasing instead of purchasing. EVs have new technology that is greatly improving over the next few years. Nissan has already announced an improved battery for 2014 that is more heat resistant and already implied an improved battery for 2015 with higher capacity (longer range).

We leased in NC a 2013 SV for only $205/mo w same down. It was an unusually good deal.

Our lease, and all nissan leases we've seen charge $0.15/mi for overage. That is pretty reasonable for us. We're saving between $200-250/mo in gas even after counting the cost of electricity. I figure the car is worth it even with overage. It still comes out cheaper for us than driving our 18 mpg minivan.

Regarding your driving distance... it's similar to what we do. The important thing for us is having L2 charging at home so we can quickly recharge to head out again in the same day. We typically do 60 miles per day with one day as high as 170 miles... obviously with multiple charges during the day.

We're very happy w the car. We shuttle our two kids around all sorts of activities. It's comfortable for the four of us so we can use it instead of our minivan. Most other EVs are tiny and wouldn't be comfortable for us. The RAV4 is an exception but isn't sold in our state. At the price of there RAV4 I'd start considering a Tesla, maybe a used one.

 

[nosuchthing]

Lease! The resale value will kill you (almost none at this time) unless you plan to hold on to your Leaf through thick and thin for the next 15 years. You will be acquiring a new battery in about 3-4 years that will cost you at least 5-8 grand. You can count on that.

Or...lease Chevy Spark. You can do 15,000 miles per year for 248 bucks a month (250 bucks per each 1000 miles over limit). You put 1600 down out the door and get back Ca rebate of 2500, "profiting" 900 dollars. That's what I did for my 2nd EV. And yeah, you will start with 90+ mile range, making any Leaf turning green with envy. Includes TMS too, just in case it's hot "down there" where you live.

 

[derkraut]

I forgot California is a huge state. We live in Goleta/Santa Barbara area so the climate temperature is pretty stable.

Goleta/Santa Barbara is almost perfect, temperature-wise for an EV. I lived there for 3 years back in the '70's. I believe Tony W. makes a good case for the RAV-4.; but if you go with the Leaf, I would purchase instead of lease, due to the projected miles driven.

 

[Kleanhiker]

Thanks again for all the advice.

I wanted to buy the leaf but the monthly cost is too high for us at this time.

Having the option to lease for $420ish a month with 64,000 miles for the three years seems reasonable to us. Yes it is a lot of miles and we are going to prepay for all those extra miles. I just can't believe we do that much mileage but that is between two cars and we will limit our driving and share the leaf more so it makes sense.

As for the price, I will keep in my to limit our cost down. There is a $1400 drive off fee that we have to pay anyways but I'm hoping there may be parts of that I can negotiate down.

I will check the other links to see what the current leases look like.

The other option my wife said is that we just get the 15,000 mile per year limit and when we approach it per month we start driving the gas cars. I just don't like that idea as it will cut into our profits of going gasless. I guess I should figure out how much gas we can get for the difference in miles that we are paying. Is $60 more in prepaid mileage worth storing the leaf and using the gas cars if we get close to our mileage limit? I know $60 fills my tank and I only get 280 miles per tank.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

I guess I should figure out how much gas we can get for the difference in miles that we are paying. Is $60 more in prepaid mileage worth storing the leaf and using the gas cars if we get close to our mileage limit? I know $60 fills my tank and I only get 280 miles per tank.

Run the numbers. If you figure 4mi/kwh (pretty easy to do, assumes lots of expressway) and using the national average $0.11/kwh and figuring $0.15/mi overage charge, going 280 miles in the Leaf if over mileage, would cost $42 overage charge + $7.7 in electricity comes out to $49.70. Still cheaper than the $60 gas tank.
Electricity is probably more expensive there, but there may be off peak rates you can take advantage of. This also doesn't count inefficiency of the charging process.

 

[smkettner]

I have never leased a vehicle before. I like nothing about the leasing aspect of having a vehicle.
And yet I recommend you lease. I think I am going to regret owning my LEAF and would have been happier with a lease.
Especially at these new lower payments available today vs during the initial roll out.
Time will tell but leasing seems to be winning out at this point to me. :|