How fast is the public charging network being built-out ?

[TomT]

I think he refers to actually being able to get home AFTER you visit your friends (as in 160 miles round trip) without having to stay overnight to recharge... :lol:

And I agree. With a 3.3Kw charger at least, public L2 is of limited value in most cases since you simply will not be there long enough to take on an appreciable charge...
Can it be done? Of course. Is it convenient and effective? Probably not. And that will not sell an EV to John/Jane Q. Public.

Every now and then you may want to go visit friends/family 80+ miles away.

You can't go 80+ miles? I have absolutely no problem going 100 miles on an 80% charge. You should be able to go 80+ on 100%. Try using ECO and stay off the interstates/freeways.

 

[surfingslovak]

Here is what the ChargePoint network looked like in August 2011:


Click to open

in April 2012:

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and now:

Click to open

 

[LEAFer]

To be fair ... I think (and I could be wrong as it may not apply to the the map you are displaying of "now" status) the new 4.0 version of ChargePoint Network now also displays non-network (e.g. Clipper Creeks, Nissan Dealers, etc) locations ...

 

[surfingslovak]

To be fair ... I think (and I could be wrong as it may not apply to the the map you are displaying of "now" status) the new 4.0 version of ChargePoint Network now also displays non-network (e.g. Clipper Creeks, Nissan Dealers, etc) locations ...

Yes, and I specifically filtered those out. There is a button for that in the upper right corner on their website. I wanted to have an apples-to-apples comparison, and since the old maps did not show any non-ChargePoint stations, I had to get rid of them

 

[KJD]

It should also be noted that there are several states where there are exactly ZERO locations listed in all 3 maps.

 

[surfingslovak]

It should also be noted that there are several states where there are exactly ZERO locations listed in all 3 maps.

Indeed :-( As LEAFer astutely noted, this is just the CP network. It might be interesting to track other stations, as well as private installations, via PlugShare, for example.

 

[KeiJidosha]

Here is what the ChargePoint network looked like...

Quality is as important as quantity. Easy to use, reliable equipment in useful locations. Tied to a robust, multiplatform network that logs helpful information at reasonable cost. They have set the standard (and are my vendor of choice) for public charging infrastructure.

 

[LEAFer]

To be fair ... I think (and I could be wrong as it may not apply to the the map you are displaying of "now" status) the new 4.0 version of ChargePoint Network now also displays non-network (e.g. Clipper Creeks, Nissan Dealers, etc) locations ...

Yes, and I specifically filtered those out. There is a button for that in the upper right corner on their website. I wanted to have an apples-to-apples comparison, and since the old maps did not show any non-ChargePoint stations, I had to get rid of them

Interesting ... thanks for pointing that out. So ... inquiring minds' next question ... What was filtered out ? And here's the answer:
ChargePoint Network's "Other Network" (only) as of 18Nov2012 16:50PST

 

[surfingslovak]

Interesting, albeit slightly depressing article on Green Car Reports:
Charging Networks Struggle To Survive Slowly Growing Electric Car Market

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

I've gradually come to the conclusion that public charging is not the key. at any rate, even at L3, a person has to wait and that just gets old fast. I've tried to put myself in the shoes of john/Jane Q. public over the last few years and forget that I'm an enthusiast. I'm coming around to the conclusion that the car's battery must be large enough for it's intended purpose to not require public charging, hardly ever. For the Leaf it simply means it needs to be purchased with realistic expectations. So many here, self included, are all about proving the technology to the max. I've found that the most enjoyable way to use the Leaf is within it's 72 mile real world summer time range (60ish winter), which it turns out is surprisingly easy. It's not all that practical for long trips, though they are doable for the passionate enthusiast like myself, they are so stressful for John/Jane Q to even consider, most are refusing to even give an EV a try. Don't get me wrong, I am a big advocate of public charging infrastructure, I just think it's main purpose will be for occasional use, and I'm certain it needs to be mostly fast charging. The Leaf, with it's 24kW battery is ideal for a 40 ish mile commute with enough room for a few extra side errands and cold weather range reduction in the winter and "gradual" loss of range due to general pack aging over time. I believe that for the most part, virtually all EV charging will happen in the home at night while the owner sleeps and maybe regularly at work for those who can plug in at work. I truly believe that what will determine the useful range of an EV will be it's battery size without the presumption of public charging beyond the occasional use. A 2-300 mile battery will virtually eliminate the need for public charging accept for occasional out of town trips, which for most people are not part of any sort of daily routine and will be infrequent enough to make the time at a charging station much less of a concern.

the key, IMHO, at the end of the day, is for the prospective buyer to purchase the Leaf or other EV making sure it's range is well matched for the job they intend to use it for, without needing a whole lot of charging, with plenty of wiggle room. I still feel that availability of public charging is important for peace of mind and occasional use, but it's hard to imagine a "for profit" model that can survive with such infrequent business from those who are relying on it being there but who rarely use it. I suspect it will all need to be publicly funded, or in the case of Tesla, a design model that is relatively self sustaining, like net solar.

... With a 3.3Kw charger at least, public L2 is of limited value in most cases since you simply will not be there long enough to take on an appreciable charge...
Can it be done? Of course. Is it convenient and effective? Probably not. And that will not sell an EV to John/Jane Q. Public.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

I don't find this article depressing. actually, I find it refreshing. if there is no money to be made in public charging because the need is so small, we better figure that out really quickly. I would suggest that much of the perception of the need for a public network is coming from either the prospective buyer who really has no experience to base their opinion on or the enthusiast early adapter who charges mainly to show support for the network and who tries to push the limits of a small pack, more so than the average folk will be willing to do.

the future of the EV will hinge on the ability of the market to provide larger/denser batteries. once a person can drive the distance equivalent or in excess of today's gas cars, the public will stop worrying so much about where they are going to charge, leading to a broader embracing of the technology.

I see a public charging network down the line, but after millions of EV's are on the roads, after a bigger battery is economical. In the mean time, best well match the battery size to the intended task and cut out a whole lot of headaches, like unreliable under funded charging stations.

Interesting, albeit slightly depressing article on Green Car Reports:
Charging Networks Struggle To Survive Slowly Growing Electric Car Market

 

[bryan38401]

one of the major problems has been chargepoint and blink they have convinced people you need a subscription based network so you can offer a robust,multi platform network that logs info for a enhanced customer experince.When a well built heavy duty long lasting unit will do. so lets look at some real numbers.Since I install only certian brands we will leave brand names out.I will simply use networked and non networked.average networked L2 unit 4700.00 plus 4000.00 install total 8700.00 with average per hr rate 1.00 to 3.00 pay back at 2.00 (not including electric and maintanance) 4350.hrs lets just say long time.average non networked L2 1600.00 plus 1700.00 install total 3300.00 so if you took the differance you saved and gave away the charge thats 15,714 charge hrs. OK on to level 3 networked L3 average cost 50,000.00 and 35,000.00 to install so thats 85,000.00 no matter what you charge NO PAY BACK.non networked L3 with cc reader average 23,000.00 and 8000.00 install thats 31,000.00 with average 7.00 to 10.00 per half hour gives you a 6 to 9 year pay back.this is why you have what you have.

 

[hill]

This is anecdotal at best, but I watch the number listed on the ChargePoint map fairly closely. Based on this, about 30 to 40 Coulomb stations were added in the SF Bay Area over the course of the past two months. Most of them seem to have gone into the San Francisco airport, but there is a number of these stations popping up elsewhere.

There are four new stations in South San Francisco, Vodafone in Walnut Creek just finished putting two stations into their garage, four stations were added in Palo Alto, six at Citrix in Santa Clara and the list goes on.

There are laggards as well, COSTCO being one of them. Then there is the City of Los Gatos, which turned down a grant to get free Coulomb stations to avoid vendor lock-in and to prepare a study. I believe that the City of San Francisco has in its infinite wisdom done something similar.

The sense I get is that the planning and execution horizon for a new station is about six months, and the new stations we are seeing now were approved a while ago. Hopefully as the demand grows, this process will accelerate.

One could paste a current (no pun intended) screen shot compare it to this old one, and find it quite nice to see how many stations have been added (with the exception of QC's in So Cal) during the past year and a half.

.

 

[KevinSharpe]

I still feel that availability of public charging is important for peace of mind and occasional use, but it's hard to imagine a "for profit" model that can survive with such infrequent business from those who are relying on it being there but who rarely use it. I suspect it will all need to be publicly funded, or in the case of Tesla, a design model that is relatively self sustaining, like net solar.

I do not believe that a "for profit" model exists for charging networks. However, I have no doubt that social enterprise and existing businesses can provide all the charging that we need when away from home/work.

Here's a good example that demonstrates how quickly we can install 50+ locations in one small geographical area without a penny of government funding;

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=7834&p=249263#p249263" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[mkjayakumar]

Charge stations and battery replacement models would be viable only if the EV owner really believes it helps his commute/long distance travel. The current BEVs with sub 100 mile range would never encourage anyone to do a public charging sitting for hours in a charge station , unless they are in a limb and have no other choice.

Once the ranges go over 200 or even better 300 miles, then all of these superchargers and battery replacements models become a real meaningful alternative to pumping gas in 5 minutes. As long as the ranges are in two digits like the Leaf and iMev, there will be no real interest to plan a trip based on public charging. It is simply too slow and requires too many charges even to make a 200 mile trip.

BP is failing because they are constrained by a car with sub-100 mile range. Tesla 85kWh is the minimum required for public charging/battery replacement to become meaningful and viable.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

well put, I think it's turning out that the "horse" is an adequate battery and the "cart" is a charging network. I used to think the cart had to come before the horse. Part of it is simply a matter of watching how things are unfolding, people just simply are not embracing short range pure EV's in large enough numbers so far. I hope li-air comes to the market sooner than later!

...Tesla 85kWh is the minimum required for public charging/battery replacement to become meaningful and viable.

 

[ksnogas2112]

For public charging to work the EVSE has to be at a location where people want to spend time. Libraries, malls, theaters, restaurants or better all of those. The device is a loss leader to get more people to stop by your location instead of elsewhere. When it comes to movies, I go to the theater with the plug rather than the ones without for the 2-3 movies a year I see. I wanted to use the public device at the library last night to preheat the car while waiting for son's trumpet lesson but it was ICE'd. Putting devices at offices only really helps employees. This is a great employee benefit and can encourage purchase of EV's.

The problem is fee vs free. For 240 volt charging, I doubt that I would ever be in a position where a charge was a must have to enable return home. Consequently I wouldn't pay for opportunity charging but I would certainly patronize places that did provide it over competitors that don't. For example I would always cross the street to use a Walgreens instead of a CVS even if neither had a device simply because some of the Walgreens do have devices.

As far as the older maps go, it's not surprising that some locations didn't grow very fast as there were not vehicles to purchase in those states.

Just my two cents. Here's your complimentary pick axe to poke holes.