How long 'til 4th bar drops?

[kolmstead]

In my opinion, there has to be a "cold battery" capacity bar loss inhibitor. Otherwise thousands of Leafs exposed to cold weather would lose a bar or even two in the winter and regain them in the spring. Nobody wants that, even though it truly represents battery capacity at that time. If you look back, ever since we got decent instrumentation, every fall dozens of members start screaming about rapid capacity loss. It's the cold. It's not permanent.

But if the capacity loss is real and permanent, a few days of warm battery would turn off the inhibit algorithm and the bar would extinguish.

 

[Valdemar]

They know how cells perform over the range of operating temperatures, and likely there's a corresponding map stored in the BMS, it would seem that this inhibitor can be as simple as a coefficient they use to normalize capacity to say 20C.

 

[ttweed]

I may be wrong, but I don't think we saw any long-lasting effects from P3227.

Wasn't one long-lasting (actually permanent) effect of the P3227 update the loss of regenerative capability, especially at higher states of charge? I remember an entire thread of "Where did my regen go?" discussion at the time. I know the behavior of the "regen bubbles" on the dash changed radically after I had the update in August of 2013. I rarely get more than 3 or 4 bubbles lit anymore, where I used to get all of them lit up on a long downhill run, but some of that may be due to the degraded condition of the battery now after 4.5 years.

My point in bringing this up is that besides whatever fiddling they did with the capacity bar limits (and hysteresis of their display) in the P3227 update, it may be possible that Nissan discovered that one of the reasons for more rapid degradation of the 2011-12 batteries was that they were allowing regenerative charging in too strong a manner in the earliest iteration of the BMS software, which had a deleterious effect on the battery pack. If one actually had the desire to degrade the battery to achieve a level low enough to qualify for the warranty, it might be advantageous to delay the application of the update until about 3 months before the warranty EOL date, IMHO. Three months should give enough time to recover from whatever temporary increase in capacity readings it may induce and return to previous levels. My car took only a month to drop to it's previous level after the update. Mwalsh's took 2 months.

There is no doubt in my mind that Nissan tweaked the software in a number of ways with this particular update to protect themselves from warranty claims after the class-action suit forced them to offer a capacity warranty, since it is required before anyone can make a claim. I wish I had waited to have it applied myself, but then I now also wish I had not babied the battery in all the ways Nissan suggested for "long life" only to find that I still had only a measly 70% of capacity left after 4 years, instead of the 7-8 years I had been led to believe that would take. These factors will probably prevent me from qualifying for the capacity warranty in 5 years and 50K miles, just as Nissan hoped they would. :evil:

TT

 

[Valdemar]

^^ Yes for regen, but generally my impression was that degradation continued on a more or less the same slope following P3227 after AHr settled. Many got their packs replaced after P3227 was applied, so overall it seems that the effects are inconclusive. My 3rd bar disappeared somewhat faster than the 2nd, and that was after P3227.

 

[TimLee]

+100
I have so far avoided P3227.
But the early careful treatment of the battery is probably too much to overcome in a half year remaining.

So stuck with a 35,000 mile car worth less than $8,000 that needs a $6,000 battery replacement to be useful.

On par with the performance of the Chevrolet Vega or Ford Pinto :?

It doesn't catch fire much, but one did recently

 

[Valdemar]

So stuck with a 35,000 mile car worth less than $8,000 that needs a $6,000 battery replacement to be useful.

I think in the back of our mind we all knew this was bound to happen, but still marched forward.

 

[dgpcolorado]

I think in the back of our mind we all knew this was bound to happen, but still marched forward.

I can't speak for others, but that was certainly the case for me. The 2012 LEAF also happened to be the highest priced model year and I knew it was not going to be remotely cost-effective but chose to take the plunge to help support the first mass-market EV. And the car still serves my needs, albeit with an interim charge on my longer trips, and remains so much fun to drive that I hate having to exercise the ICEV every few months.

 

[mspisars]

Newby question here... how do I get this info from my Leaf?

GIDs: 280 (95.9%)
kWh: 21.7
SOC: 97.4%
SOH: 99%
Hx: 92.18%
AHr: 59.39

 

[Valdemar]

Newby question here... how do I get this info from my Leaf?

GIDs: 280 (95.9%)
kWh: 21.7
SOC: 97.4%
SOH: 99%
Hx: 92.18%
AHr: 59.39

Start here:

http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Leaf_Spy_Pro

 

[mwalsh]

So stuck with a 35,000 mile car worth less than $8,000 that needs a $6,000 battery replacement to be useful.

I think in the back of our mind we all knew this was bound to happen, but still marched forward.

I thought there was a good possibility of me needing to pony up the cash for a new battery pack after 5 years, but did not expect to see the car's usefulness so compromised after just 3 years. And never in a million years did I expect the resale value to be so abysmal. So on both those fronts I'm more than a little disappointed. The resale value not so much, because I never intend to sell my LEAF - even if I eventually move on to another manufacturer's wares, I'll offer the car gratis to a family member on the understanding that they can use it as is, or pony up the $5400 for a replacement battery pack and basically have a car in near new condition.

 

[mspisars]

Start here:

http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Leaf_Spy_Pro

Thank you!

 

[Valdemar]

I thought there was a good possibility of me needing to pony up the cash for a new battery pack after 5 years, but did not expect to see the car's usefulness so compromised after just 3 years. And never in a million years did I expect the resale value to be so abysmal.

I can't say i was ready for this, but it was one of the least likely scenarios I did consider. For usefulness compromise I put my bets on public charging and it did work out acceptably well, as for the resale value it was less expected, however my lowest bar was set to break even with the 22mpg premium fuel car that Leaf replaced over 5 years/100k miles, and so far I'm on track for that and even better. So while I'm disappointed in the car itself and the way Nissan treats the early adopters the overall experience is reassuring enough to make my next car an EV as well.

 

[TimLee]

... the overall experience is reassuring enough to make my next car an EV as well.

I still love the LEAF driving experience and am grossly disappointed when I have to drive my 2009 Altima SL ( one thing better is the Bose stereo) or my mother-in-law's 2007 Lincoln MKZ.

Next car should be electric or extended range electric or I will not be happy.
But my wife wants the next car to be exciting with convertible or massive sun roof and I would like that too.
Is anybody going to sell that :?:

 

[Valdemar]

I said good bye to my 4th bar today at 42.65AHr, but I've seen it below 42.6 in the last couple of days. I'm now in the camp that believes that the rate of degradation doesn't taper off, and it's worse than linear.

 

[mwalsh]

I said good bye to my 4th bar today at 42.65AHr, but I've seen it below 42.6 in the last couple of days. I'm now in the camp that believes that the rate of degradation doesn't taper off, and it's worse than linear.

Congrats!

Edit: Oh, I see you're out of warranty. Bummer.

Now how do we kill mine? Answers on a postcard please, to...

 

[Valdemar]

I said good bye to my 4th bar today at 42.65AHr, but I've seen it below 42.6 in the last couple of days. I'm now in the camp that believes that the rate of degradation doesn't taper off, and it's worse than linear.

Congrats!

Now how do we kill mine? Answers on a postcard please, to...

Well, "congrats" doesn't really apply in this case, but thank you anyway

 

[mwalsh]

Well, "congrats" doesn't really apply in this case, but thank you anyway

Yeah, I see that now. Sorry.

How much of that vacillation between higher and lower AHr readings did you see?

 

[Valdemar]

Well, "congrats" doesn't really apply in this case, but thank you anyway

Yeah, I see that now. Sorry.

How much of that vacillation between higher and lower AHr readings did you see?

It was hovering around 42.6-42.7 for several weeks, 65% SOH, then it dropped to 42.55 yesterday 64% SOH which was the lowest I've seen, then back to 42.7 this morning, and later today I noticed the bar was gone at 42.65 65% SOH, I'm almost positive I still had 9 bars in the morning, not that it is important.

 

[ajay]

I am trying to figure out if i need to change my driving / charging routine to catch the battery warranty. I started keeping a log of the AHr from leafSpyLite to see how quickly AHr was dropping. Today i observed a strange report, the AHr reported did not drop, it increased instead ! It went from 43.34 last week to 43.46 this week.

Have others also observed the battery capacity measure go back up? Is this normal? It makes extrapolating the AHr to the magic 42.5 threshold really hard :

Date			Odo		AHr		SOH	Hx	QCs	L1/L2	Bars
2015-Sep-03	53162	43.98	67%	46.03%	11	2196		9
2015-Sep-08	53339	43.59	66%	45.39%	11	2202		9
2015-sep-15	53558	43.43	66%	45.14%	12	2211		9
2015-sep-28	54015	43.34	66%	44.97%	12	2225		9
2015-oct-05	54256	43.46	66%	45.17%	12	2232		9

Ajay.

 

[mwalsh]

Today i observed a strange report, the AHr reported did not drop, it increased instead ! It went from 43.34 last week to 43.46 this week.

Have others also observed the battery capacity measure go back up? Is this normal? It makes extrapolating the AHr to the magic 42.5 threshold really hard

If you were to take a look at the numbers I've collected for the last few years, you'll see that I have seen an increase in AHr from readings taken in September and readings taking in October, as we've started to come into cooler winter days. Now that was before the P3227 update, so I can't tell you if it was ever "normal", or will continue, but it did happen:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=12789&start=567

In the last couple of weeks, I've also experienced some very wide swings in AHr readings that are probably not related to cooler weather (since the days haven't been much cooler, even though the nights have to an extent), and have been trying to figure out if my car is trying to tell me something. Interaction with a couple of other recent 4-bar loosers would seem to indicate they saw the same thing prior to loosing their 9th bar, so the answer might well be "yes". Only time will tell, but we're due what might be the final hot spell round these parts before winter well and truly sets in, and I'm hoping that's what finally does my pack in.