Hyundai Tucson Fuel Cell

[JasonA]

I think if you follow the Tuscon FB group, they pretty much tell it all there. Most are pretty disgusted on what has happened and the way Hyundai has supported them.

I actually think Hyundai has told them to stop posting certain things as it violates their TOS agreements they signed and then all of a sudden, the bad posts on the FB page kinda stopped :lol:

But you still see up til late July all the crap they've been dealing with.

 

[GRA]

Hasn't the inadequacy of the current, never intended to be commercial H2 fueling stations been covered repeatedly and in depth, either here or in other threads?

Yes, but you see that lack of infrastructure has not been resolved in the last four weeks. Therefore its hopeless!!!!

But seriously I think I'd still be kind of miffed if literally was fighting to get my car fueled up. I do wonder how (if at all) Hyundai selected customers of the car and what kind of disclaimers and waivers they made them sign.

Hyundai said they were doing the same sort of screening that Toyota is doing for the Mirai, i.e. have to live within close range of (or regularly pass by, presumably) an H2 station, plus usage patterns, other cars in family etc. No idea about disclaimers/waivers, but really, how could they force anyone not to bitch publicly? All they could do is take the car back, which would probably suit the angriest people just fine.

I think it's pretty obvious that Hyundai isn't happy with the situation, but until the commercial stations come on-line there's not much they can do about improving station reliability, except compensate the lessees in some way for their losses. Seeing as how the number of Tucson FCEVs here is probably still below triple digits, I think the simplest method would be to just take the cars back and give them a loaner or their monthly lease fee so they can rent whatever they want (and maybe pay for gas), or else eat the monthly lease fees until the situation is resolved. $500 x 100 is only $10k/month, and will hardly bankrupt the company while making the customers feel like they aren't being ignored.

 

[ydnas7]

[ I think the simplest method would be to just take the cars back ....

sweet ZEV credits probably have requirement for 3 years on the road or something?

 

[GRA]

[ I think the simplest method would be to just take the cars back ....

sweet ZEV credits probably have requirement for 3 years on the road or something?

I'm not suggesting a permanent repossession, just take them back until the problems are resolved, and in the interim give the lessees something else to drive, pay for their gas, whatever. This eliminates any question of trying to game Hyundai by driving the car while claiming that it couldn't be filled. When the lessee feels that the fueling situation has improved enough to be acceptable for them, they get the car back and Hyundai resumes accepting the lease payments.

 

[TonyWilliams]

... No idea about disclaimers/waivers, but really, how could they force anyone not to bitch publicly? All they could do is take the car back, which would probably suit the angriest people just fine.

Come on, this is normal business... Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA).

If they signed one, and then went on the internet bitching in violation of the agreement, they could find themselves getting sued... and losing.

 

[TonyWilliams]

[ I think the simplest method would be to just take the cars back ....

sweet ZEV credits probably have requirement for 3 years on the road or something?

There is NO F-ING WAY that they will give up 9 CARB-ZEV credits per vehicle by taking those cars back. NOT AN OPTION.

They will absolutely be on the road in California for the 36 months required.

The last estimate of a CARB-ZEV credit was worth $4000 each, making these cars worth $36,000 EACH in credit.

Plus, without any other ZEV option for Hyundai at the moment, this has to work, and it will, whether the cars can get H2, or not.

Yes, they could just outright GIVE them some Hyundai petroleum car, but they won't take back the "Credit Cars". It's not just the value of the ZEV credits... they actually NEED the credits to sell oodles of petroleum cars that they actually make lots of money with.

The penalty for noncompliance is $5000 per credit. For the record, no manufacturer has ever paid the fine, but it should be obvious why the credit value won't go above $4999 !!!

 

[RegGuheert]

They will absolutely be on the road in California for the 36 months required.

Licensed, at least, if not actually "on the road."

 

[RegGuheert]

This is about two months old, but I don't think it's been posted: Hyundai Tuscon Fuel Cell sales not hitting target.

Hyundai's aim to get 1,000 examples of the Tucson Fuel Cell out to the public worldwide is falling well behind the company's original hopes. As of the most recent accounting through May 2015, the Korean automaker has managed to move just 273 of them globally since the FCVs first went on sale in Korea in 2013.

Hyundai reportedly sold 76 Tucson FCVs in 2013, 128 in 2014, and 69 so far this year, according to Korea's Yonhap News Agency. Of those, the vast majority were shipped to the US and Europe with 116 and 117, respectively. Another 29 remained in South Korea. However, the automaker's vice president of corporate and product planning in the US said in May that it had actually only leased about 70 of the vehicles here. The 1,000-unit global goal by the end of 2015 is almost certain not to be met.

But I found the update to be pretty telling:

Hyundai spokesperson Derek Joyce contacted Autoblog to clarify that 1,000 units is a global production goal, not a sales goal.

That's pretty bad. Who needs sales goals? "At Hyundai, we just make 'em and park 'em out back to meet our goals."

Actually, come to think of it, that's probably the best plan of all! It would eliminate all the waste and damage caused by building a bunch of H2 refueling stations.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Well, parking the cars out back isn't going to get the job done. They do need to sell / lease them.

Hyundai strikes me as a company that should just make a sweetheart deal for some large company as a fleet sale.

Maybe the state of California? Sell them the cars so they get the credit, and the cars can sit in the motor pool with nobody driving them (much) without infrastructure.

The state can brag how "green" they are.

Win, win.

 

[GRA]

... No idea about disclaimers/waivers, but really, how could they force anyone not to bitch publicly? All they could do is take the car back, which would probably suit the angriest people just fine.

Come on, this is normal business... Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA).

If they signed one, and then went on the internet bitching in violation of the agreement, they could find themselves getting sued... and losing.

How is an NDA normal business for a car lease? A beta test, sure.

 

[TonyWilliams]

... No idea about disclaimers/waivers, but really, how could they force anyone not to bitch publicly? All they could do is take the car back, which would probably suit the angriest people just fine.

Come on, this is normal business... Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA).

If they signed one, and then went on the internet bitching in violation of the agreement, they could find themselves getting sued... and losing.

How is an NDA normal business for a car lease? A beta test, sure.

There's nothing "normal" about a car that:

1) Sells in a smaller quantity than any transportation device that I can think of... all cars, riding lawnmower, golf cart, earth moving equipment, bikes, Segway, Extra aerobatic airplane, GoPed, etc

2) Has almost no infrastructure, and all the infrastructure planned, ALL OF IT, will be paid for largely with tax money

3) Is restricted to SoCal and the middle of California

4) Even the most grandiose plans restrict its travel to California and some small northeast coast states

5) Must be sold to meet regulatory zero emission vehicle (ZEV) rules

6) Like the old GM EV-1, and Honda Fit EV in the future, it will likely get crushed at the end.

So, yes, I could see an NDA being part of the lease. I don't know that one is, however. Suggesting a hydrogen car is "normal business" is just not accurate.

 

[GRA]

Come on, this is normal business... Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA).

If they signed one, and then went on the internet bitching in violation of the agreement, they could find themselves getting sued... and losing.

How is an NDA normal business for a car lease? A beta test, sure.

There's nothing "normal" about a car that:

1) Sells in a smaller quantity than any transportation device that I can think of... all cars, riding lawnmower, golf cart, earth moving equipment, bikes, Segway, Extra aerobatic airplane, GoPed, etc

2) Has almost no infrastructure, and all the infrastructure planned, ALL OF IT, will be paid for largely with tax money

3) Is restricted to SoCal and the middle of California

4) Even the most grandiose plans restrict its travel to California and some small northeast coast states

5) Must be sold to meet regulatory zero emission vehicle (ZEV) rules

6) Like the old GM EV-1, and Honda Fit EV in the future, it will likely get crushed at the end.

So, yes, I could see an NDA being part of the lease. I don't know that one is, however. Suggesting a hydrogen car is "normal business" is just not accurate.

Using some (by no means all) of the same metrics, the Tesla Roadster wasn't normal either, nor was the iMiEV, or the Coda, or the Accord PHEV. Did leasing or buying any of them require signing an NDA? In any case, this is all speculation, because so far there's absolutely no evidence that an NDA was required to lease a Tucson, and if it was, it seems the lessees are ignoring it en masse.

 

[ydnas7]

Using some (by no means all) of the same metrics, the Tesla Roadster wasn't normal either, nor was the iMiEV, or the Coda, or the Accord PHEV. Did leasing or buying any of them require signing an NDA? In any case, this is all speculation, because so far there's absolutely no evidence that an NDA was required to lease a Tucson, and if it was, it seems the lessees are ignoring it en masse.

the Roadster, iMiev, Coda and accord PHEV were/are normal cars that people could buy, and get repaired in an accident.

Honda Fit EV is not a normal car, leasees do not right to repair the vehicle, its legally akin to a sealed box.

 

[epirali]

Using some (by no means all) of the same metrics, the Tesla Roadster wasn't normal either, nor was the iMiEV, or the Coda, or the Accord PHEV. Did leasing or buying any of them require signing an NDA? In any case, this is all speculation, because so far there's absolutely no evidence that an NDA was required to lease a Tucson, and if it was, it seems the lessees are ignoring it en masse.

the Roadster, iMiev, Coda and accord PHEV were/are normal cars that people could buy, and get repaired in an accident.

Honda Fit EV is not a normal car, leasees do not right to repair the vehicle, its legally akin to a sealed box.

As the owner of the Roadster I do have to say you will have to kind of remove it from the list. It is SOMETIMES repairable. One good small accident and the car is totaled.

But the whole NDA this is rather strange. Unless the company is PAYING for the test units I find it strange and disturbing that owners have to sign an NDA to drive their own cars!

 

[GRA]

I don't do Facebook so can't say what may be on there, but is there ANY Tucson FCEV lessee claiming that they're being muzzled by an NDA? If not, can we drop this, and talk about 1,000 mile-range LEAFs appearing in 2016, or some other equally reliable rumor based on zero evidence?

 

[JasonA]

I guess you haven't been following our Mirai thread on the Rav forum? :lol:

http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1640

Got pretty gnarly over there but I posted all this in that thread... and some still just don't understand the "Hydrogen Hype"

I really feel sorry for all those Tuscon owners.. they really got the screw job.

P.S. I never posted here because Tony's doing an awesome job on this front! So I kept it going over there!

mwalsh decided nogo in the end!

So I am curious, anyone know what the Tucson owners were told, or disclosed, etc? Was there any kind of screening as Toyota seems to be doing?

Well at ANY of the EV events/ plug in events this last weekend...

Toyota was at ANY of them...

and the Mirai wasn't talked about in any circles...

Hello.... ???

lololol

 

[TonyWilliams]

... Well at ANY of the EV events/ plug in events this last weekend...

Toyota was [not] at ANY of them...

and the Mirai wasn't talked about in any circles...

Neither was Honda or Hyundai, the other two major promotors of hydrogen.

Companies that intend to do at least some hydrogen, like Daimler, VW, and maybe BMW, are displaying their EV and plug-ins but no hydrogen talk... I wonder why?

 

[GRA]

Via ABG:

A fourth Hyundai dealer in southern California now sells the Tucson Fuel Cell. Keyes Hyundai in northern Los Angeles has met the requirements to sell the hydrogen-powered CUV. So far, Hyundai has delivered more than 75 Tucson Fuel Cell vehicles, which have logged almost 700,000 miles on southern California roads. "Keyes Hyundai is thrilled to be added as a qualified dealer for Hyundai's zero-emissions Tucson Fuel Cell hydrogen electric vehicle," says David Kohan, the dealership's general manager. "Our location in the northern Los Angeles region makes it even more convenient for local residents to conveniently acquire their new Tucson Fuel Cell CUV, helping reduce greenhouse gas emissions." The other qualified dealerships are located in Anaheim, Carson and Tustin. Read more in the press release below. . . .

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/23/trd-toyota-prius-leak/

 

[JasonA]

Doesn't matter... blah blah blah... Fool cell is dead.. or at least for now (hopefully for good)..

At Altcar (in Santa Monica) Toyota has a "pretty" nice display going on for the ugly creature.... there was NEVER a line or wait time to test drive the 2 vehicles they had while I was there on Sat (the busiest time for the event)...

All the other vendors with EV's were packed! and it took us almost 30min just to wait to drive the MB-EV (wife wanted to :| )

But that Mirai.... nasty... yuk

Not much interest in the Tuscon or MB FCV booth as well... OMG!!!! A FOURTH DEALER NOW!!!! WOW!!!

A fourth Hyundai dealer in southern California now sells the Tucson Fuel Cell.

Sales are going to skyrocket!!!!!

pipe dreams baby!!!

pipe dreams!

 

[DaveEV]

JasonA, I think we all get the point that you don't like FCEVs. But please try to keep the level of condescension and mocking to a polite level.

Thank you!