I test-drove a 2013 "S"; Is it too close to call?

[mlapratt]

Help me decide what to do!
In late March I test drove a 2013 "S" from a local Nissan dealer to my workplace. Is this "too close to call" for me to consider leasing this vehicle? PLEASE ADVISE! Here is what happened:

I started at Nissan Dealership with 98% charge.
I drive 5.5 miles to my home and had 89% charge upon arrival.
After trickle-charging for 45 minutes I had 91% charge.
I drove 35.4 miles to my workplace (half freeway/half sidestreets) and had 43% charge upon arrival.
After trickle-charging at my workplace for 45 minutes, I had 49% charge.
I began my return commute back to the original Nissan dealership (38.8miles). But after just 17.1 miles of this, I was down to 20% charge.
I happened to be passing another Nissan dealership at this point, so I pulled in and charged for 25 minutes into a 240 charging station.
After charging there for 25 minutes, I had 31% charge.
With 5.5 mils remaining in my commute, my miles remaining indicator went from "3" miles to "- - -". Scary!
I don't know how, but I made it back to the original Nissan Dealership.
**SPECIAL NOTE** I drove in "ECO MODE" the ENTIRE time. I NEVER used the heater system (it was totally off). I ONLY used the radio sparingly (for a few seconds every ten minutes to listen for traffic reports on my commute route).

I know there are many factors to consider. But I'm still optimistic that the 2013 Leaf could work for me.

After explaining my route to the salesperson (including the chargings), he tried to explain to me that the 2013 SV or SL would have a longer range than the "S" due to a different heating system. I could not verify this ANYwhere online. Is this true?

Also, I know that cold temperatures affect range. My testdrive happened to be on a cold March day in Michigan. The temperatures during my testdrive ranged from 14-28 degrees farenheit. And the final 12 miles of the commute were in a strong headwind with blustery snow!

If I did not have the option to tricklecharge while at work, I would definitely not consider this. But, I do have that option. And though I only tricklecharged at work for 45 minutes during my testdrive, I would normally be able to tricklecharge for at least 2 hours while I'm at work.

Also, during my testdrive, I started from my home (at 91% charge) and drove a total fo 73.5 miles (including 45 minutes of tricklecharging and 25 minutes of 240 charging) to my workplace then back (past my home 5.5 miles) to the Nissan Dealership. A realistic option for me (if I choose to lease it), would be to leave my home at 100% charge, drive 64.3 miles roundtrip from home to work and tricklecharge at work for at least two hours.

Finally, another factor, is the temerature. I do have an ICE vehicle that I could drive to work on days when I know the temperature will severely impact the range of the Leaf.

So, what to do?
Should I be convinced by the salesman that the SV or SL would give me longer range?
Should I testdrive again and convince the dealer to allow me to start at my home on 100% charge and take ONLY the shortest distance option (64.3 miles roundtrip) AND allow me to charge at work for at least two hours?
Should I give up on the 2013 and wait for a 2014 with (hopefully) longer range?

For me, I'm considering the Leaf for cost-savings. I have calculated the "S" would cost me about $300/month. Any gas-car lease would cost me at least $200/month PLUS the gas of approx. $170/month = $370/month. I leaf would save me $70/month or $1,680 over two years of a lease.

Help. I don't know what to do.
I can provide more details about my testdrive if the above info is not sufficient to seek advice.
THANK YOU in advance!

 

[davewill]

Were you running the heater? If so, this sounds quite reasonable. Yes, the 2013 SV/SL has a less-power hungry heater, but we don't have any good data on how much it helps, yet. And we may not until next winter.

I think you're cutting it close. The rule of thumb is to count on no more than 50 miles of range in the dead of winter. Maybe the new heater makes that 60 miles, and maybe it doesn't. Trickle charging adds about 3-5 miles of range per hour, which could make your 65 mile daily commute doable. If you have a back up vehicle, you could certainly manage by driving the back up on the worst days, but I think it's close to the edge.

 

[Reddy]

Help me decide what to do! Ask and you will receive
I NEVER used the heater system (it was totally off). Next time make sure you confirm by checking the energy indicator screen
......he tried to explain to me that the 2013 SV or SL would have a longer range than the "S" due to a different heating system. I could not verify this ANYwhere online. Is this true?Well, since the heat was fully OFF, then there's no difference. There will only be a difference when the heater is on. So, the salesman is partially correct
...strong headwind with blustery snow!Yup, temp/wind/snow will drop your range significantly, maybe even by half if it's a real blizzard. See some of Kubel's experiences. You can also search my name and "cold" for more cold weather-related threads.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=8103&hilit=cold
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11505&p=265780&hilit=+cold#p265780
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=11372&p=262365&hilit=+cold#p262365
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=10971&p=261491&hilit=+cold#p261491
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=11123&p=255947&hilit=+cold#p255947
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=2310&p=254509&hilit=+cold#p254509

If I did not have the option to tricklecharge while at work, I would definitely not consider this.
Good, because you'll need it, probably best to go the full 8 hrs during winter.

I do have an ICE vehicle that I could drive to work on days when I know the temperature will severely impact the range of the Leaf.
Good, because you can always use it when it gets really cold.

Sorry if I mangled the quotes or cut too much of your description. Bottom line: It will be difficult to impossible to make 70-75 mi in a Michigan winter driving highway speeds. Maybe 60 mi is doable on clear roads. I would worry about anything over 50 mi, especially with snow/wind. I did 80 mi once at 32 F, clear roads, no wind, no heat, but I wouldn't recommend it for a commute, and 20 miles were in town.

With all of your extra precautions (trickle charge at work, extra ICE for really bad days, mid-commute charging location, etc.), then I'd say your covered and go ahead with the lease/purchase.

There will probably be 1-2 months of tough days, and probably some 1-2 weeks of "get stuck in a blizzard/traffic/snowbank" stupid days. Just make sure you're prepared and switch to a different vehicle. Unfortunately, you'll enjoy the Leaf so much that you won't want to switch back.

Also, the heat pump is only more efficient above a certain temp (say around 35 F). Below that, you're back to the inefficient resistive heater. Personally, I can bundle up and don't need much heat below 40-50 F (although I do enjoy a nice pre-heated car and set at 90 F for my short commute )

 

[garsh]

I have a 60-mile round-trip commute. I had no problem making it this winter, but I always charged to 100%, I never used the heater (just the heated seat & steering wheel), and I would only go 55mph on the highway when the weather was bad.

 

[davewill]

... Also, the heat pump is only more efficient above a certain temp (say around 35 F). Below that, you're back to the inefficient resistive heater. ...

Isn't this just speculation? All I've seen are various people guessing (and arguing about) at what point the heat pump starts using too much energy and the system switches to resistive.

Edit: Someone's finally doing some testing!
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=12212" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[planet4ever]

I'd like to compliment mlapratt on the level of detail provided in his first post. Since I don't have to deal with Michigan winters you probably shouldn't put much credence in comments I make about range, but my reaction is he could probably make his 70 mile round trip most days IF:

• he is sure he can count on eight or more hours (not two) of 120v charging every day at work, and
• he is willing to slow down as needed to stretch his miles, and
• he can live without the heater, except for brief defogging blasts (at least he has seat warmers), and
• he understands that the battery will wear out, and he may only get that much range out of it for two winters, and
• he avoids driving the LEAF if high wind or blizzard conditions are forecast.

But it does sound like a close thing. At least he has charging available along the way, which will be an important fallback.

In this particular drive I think it was the wind which was his worst enemy.

Oh, one more thing. I personally doubt if the range will be significantly higher in a 2014 LEAF. It may be in 2015 or 2016, and by then there may be other reasonably priced EVs available in his area with higher range.

Ray

 

[Publius]

Trickle charging at work is crucial for the winter months. You mentioned being able to charge for at least two hours, which may provide the minimum boost you need in inclement weather. Is there a reason you couldn't charge for 6-8 hours at work? I wouldn't be worried about your commute if you could consistently count on trickle charging for a whole 8-hour work day. Also, seeing that you're employer is allowing you to trickle charge, have you inquired about installing a Level 2 charge station at work?

 

[Glenn]

For me, I'm considering the Leaf for cost-savings. I have calculated the "S" would cost me about $300/month. Any gas-car lease would cost me at least $200/month PLUS the gas of approx. $170/month = $370/month. I leaf would save me $70/month or $1,680 over two years of a lease.

I think you're being just a bit optimistic. You need to factor in something for electricity to run your new LEAF, unless you truly mean to ignore the increase in your home electric bill and the juice provided at your workplace, regardless of who's paying for it. Based on your simple calculations above, you're not actually saving $70/month: I'll leave it to you to work out the details.

Glenn

 

[RegGuheert]

... Also, the heat pump is only more efficient above a certain temp (say around 35 F). Below that, you're back to the inefficient resistive heater. ...

Isn't this just speculation? All I've seen are various people guessing (and arguing about) at what point the heat pump starts using too much energy and the system switches to resistive.

Nissan's chart shows an improvement in range with the heat pump down to about -15C:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11180&start=20#p257605" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

BTW, I recommend getting an SV or SL in order to get the heat pump. Even if if doesn't help on the coldest days, it WILL help for much of the year and that will give you less anxiety and will be better for the battery long term. Plus you will likely be warmer.

70 miles is a bit far for the LEAF, but it can be doable if you have charging at work. As mentioned, two hours of L1 is likely not enough. If you can get 8 hours of L1, you would be great.

If you lease, be sure not to go beyond your total annual miles. Perhaps driving your ICE on those coldest winter days can help with that, also.

Good luck with your decision!

 

[Redjr]

I'd like to compliment mlapratt on the level of detail provided in his first post. Since I don't have to deal with Michigan winters you probably shouldn't put much credence in comments I make about range, but my reaction is he could probably make his 70 mile round trip most days IF:

• he is sure he can count on eight or more hours (not two) of 120v charging every day at work, and
• he is willing to slow down as needed to stretch his miles, and
• he can live without the heater, except for brief defogging blasts (at least he has seat warmers), and
• he understands that the battery will wear out, and he may only get that much range out of it for two winters, and
• he avoids driving the LEAF if high wind or blizzard conditions are forecast.

But it does sound like a close thing. At least he has charging available along the way, which will be an important fallback.

In this particular drive I think it was the wind which was his worst enemy.

Oh, one more thing. I personally doubt if the range will be significantly higher in a 2014 LEAF. It may be in 2015 or 2016, and by then there may be other reasonably priced EVs available in his area with higher range.

Ray

Well said....

My personal experience with enduring a unseasonable cold winter in WI, says this is good advice. These trips are not documented on paper, I am going by memory, but I do this trip often.

I travel to my G/F's home a couple times a week, 20 miles, and I preheat (and house in a heated 38 degree shop) for a half hour on Level 2. I use only ECO, heated seats and steering wheel, defrost as needed, drive surface streets, never more than 50 MPH and use 3 bars with an ambient temperature of 20 (ish). Now, on the way home, freeway speeds (70MPH), CC on 75 degrees, without any attempt to conserve energy and use 6 bars. My point is, if you are willing to slow down, you can extend range in any temperature, more so (I've learned) when it's warmer.

Slightly off topic, (sorry), my first range anxiety episode happened when I was driving home with a ambient temperature of 6 degrees at 72 MPH, CC on 75, and the GOM said 11 miles at one point. So I got off the freeway, traveled city streets, turned off the CC, and pulled into my shop 6 miles later with 14 miles on the GOM. Again, if you are running out of range, slow down.

 

[mlapratt]

I'm a church musician. So I am only at my place of work for 2 (sometimes 3)-hour periods (Sunday morning church service or midweek evening music rehearsal). It is definitely NOT a job where I have 8-hours of possible trickle-charging time.

Also several comments/replies here reference a 70-mile commute. But at the shortest-distance option of my commute (mostly side-streets), my roundtrip commute is just 64 miles.

I have not looked fully-into having my church install a L2 charging station. If I can ensure that they'll receive a 100% rebate from the electric company, I'm sure they'll consider though.

Thanks for all of your replies. I'm still on the fence.

 

[gbshaun]

I'm a church musician. So I am only at my place of work for 2 (sometimes 3)-hour periods (Sunday morning church service or midweek evening music rehearsal). It is definitely NOT a job where I have 8-hours of possible trickle-charging time.

Also several comments/replies here reference a 70-mile commute. But at the shortest-distance option of my commute (mostly side-streets), my roundtrip commute is just 64 miles.

I have not looked fully-into having my church install a L2 charging station. If I can ensure that they'll receive a 100% rebate from the electric company, I'm sure they'll consider though.

Thanks for all of your replies. I'm still on the fence.

2 Hours of trickle charging will give you 10 miles, so really you're looking for 54 miles on a full charge. That's = my regular r/t on my 2-year old LEAF.
I can do that at 70 MPH no problem
If I forget to override my timer and have just 80% charge, i can do it no problem if i stick to 60MPH,
Admittedly that's in ~60F, but it seems like a fair buffer you'd have. On a really cold day just slow down,.. that makes a HUGE difference.

Can you pre-heat the vehicle before you leave home?

Shaun

 

[Herm]

70 mile commute is a bit marginal.. what will you do if the socket is not available?, when the battery capacity deteriorates?, when it snows or rains?.

60 miles of range is about normal for snow, reduce that by 20% to allow for deterioration and you end up at a daily 48 mile commute. My guess is that you are in Alaska, not a good choice for you.

 

[cwerdna]

The OP in his first post mentioned Michigan. It really is too bad that the Rav4 EV is a CA compliance car. Its range would be much better suited to the OP's commute. Also, unfortunately, the lease prices are terrible. Purchasing from the So Cal dealer seems like a better deal ($10K Toyota incentive) but unfortunately, getting service on the Tesla bits outside CA might be problematic.

OP: Can you update your location info via User Control Panel (near top) > Profile (left side)? That way, we don't need to ask in future posts/threads or do sleuthing to deduce it.

 

[planet4ever]

2 Hours of trickle charging will give you 10 miles,

I wish people would stop saying this. It takes more than 20 hours to recharge the battery completely at 120v. "2 hours gives you 10 miles" is like saying, "20 hours gives you 100 miles". When was the last time you got more than 100 miles on a charge? (Yes, LEAFfan says he can do that easily, but most of us can't.)

Here is a more realistic statement: Trickle charge is a bit less than a 1.1 kW charge rate into the battery. That means you get less than 2.2 kWh in two hours. If we (unlike a certain unnamed contributor) assume the m/kWh gauge is accurate and includes all current drawn from the battery, you have to have a battery with no internal losses and be getting 4.7 m/kWh to get 10 miles out of that two hours charging. Do you average 4.7 m/kWh day in and day out, summer and winter? I don't, and I live in a very mild climate.

In particular, we're talking here about winter driving in Michigan. mlapratt will be doing well if he can get 3.0 m/kWh in those conditions. Two hours of trickle charging will give him more like 6 miles than 10.

Ray

 

[garsh]

mlapratt will be doing well if he can get 3.0 m/kWh in those conditions.

Nah, I had no problem staying above 3.5 m/KWh while driving in snow.

 

[davewill]

I'm a church musician.
...
I have not looked fully-into having my church install a L2 charging station. If I can ensure that they'll receive a 100% rebate from the electric company, I'm sure they'll consider though. ...

Another possibility, you could just have a 240v outlet installed, perhaps on your own dime, then use the EVSE Upgrade to L2 charge while there. The install cost could be quite reasonable, particularly if there's an electrician in the congregation...

 

[nosuchthing]

If this is 5 days a week you will be over 12,000 miles per year lease limit. So careful there...

I'd not buy S. At least SV. You will need that heater in MI sometime, so might as well get the better one. Plus the better infotainment screen. It's definitely worth it.

Then all you have to do is change that meep-meep horn and the speakers and you're on your way (a total expenditure of about 220 bucks).

 

[smkettner]

You don't necessarily need an L2 station. Just a 20a 240v outlet. Might be easy install depending on location of electric supply and parking. Maybe there is a maintenance/service room with something already there. You can have the L1 brick modified to go L2 charging rates. Would help at home also depending on the situation.

If you have the will to make it work, I would go for it.

BTW was any of the test drive over 60 mph?

 

[mlapratt]

I make this 64-mile roundtrip commute an average of about 14 times per month... (sometimes twice/week and sometimes 4times/week). I intend to purchase additional annual lease miles to increase to 15Kmiles/yr. I have calculated my gas savings to include 30K miles (over my two-year lease) at a guesstimate of gas costing $3.50/gallon on a vehicle which gets 30mpg.

I will look into the charging-at-work options... including having this L2 or 240 charging outlet installation... as you can probably tell, I'm not an electrician. I'm not an e-car pro. I'm extremely novice. I'm simply frugal. And I keep thinking how a 2-yr 2013 Leaf would cost me LESS than any other lease (or new car payment) of a good-mileage gas-car.

It's just the range. I don't want to commit to a 2-yr lease of a LEAF only to find out that it consistently "dies" at 63 miles into my 64-mile roundtrip commute.

And yes... parts of my original testdrive were on the 70-mph limit freeway... and I was going over 70mph at times. BUT... there is a route option which I could take that is MOSTLY (90%) sidestreets (between 40 and 55mph limit) and 10% freeway (70mph limit). And I'd be willing to go under 70mph on this freeway portion if I knew it could get me (comfortably) from home to work to home (64 miles roundtrip (no hills)).