I thought US had a power grid...

[LEAFfan]

At < $1/watt after rebates/incentives - why isn't everyone installing PV in AZ?

No one now can get the deal I have, but the cost now is still only around $2/W installed if they go with my company and my panels (more with SunPower panels) so I've been wondering the same thing! People that I talk to always think it costs too much, until I tell them how inexpensive it really is. I was thinking about going door to door in our neighborhood (some have identical homes as ours) show them and explain the fact sheet.

 

[AndyH]

Anyone know of a vendor with lower prices than Sun Electronics?

http://www.sunelec.com/

Some of their panels are below $1.35 per watt retail...

 

[DaveEV]

Anyone know of a vendor with lower prices than Sun Electronics?

http://www.sunelec.com/

Some of their panels are below $1.35 per watt retail...

They are the cheapest I know of - be careful if you order from them - the deal with a lot of "B" grade equipment and have been known to ship equipment that does't necessarily match what you order. I believe their shipping costs may be fairly high as well. (I have never purchased from them - just going from reviews I've read).

 

[AndyH]

Quite right, drees. I'm not affiliated in any way, but have ordered about a dozen panels from them over the past 10 years.

They sell both "A" and "B" grade panels with and without UL certs. Their Sun-branded panels are built either in Evergreen factories or with Evergreen string-ribbon cells. I've used two Evergreen "B" 110W panels, and have four Sun "B" grade panels, and all produce(d) more than rated power - the flaws are cosmetic (color specs on some cells) - and the panels have full warranty.

The company's weakness, as far as I can tell, is that they move so many panels that they sometimes make shipping errors. I've ordered a pair of panels and ultimately received two pair, for example.

 

[AndyH]

Stressed Grid...New Normal...

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/07/21/heat.wave.power.demand/index.html?hpt=us_t2

Thursday, the Midwest Independent Transmission System Operator (MISO) -- the organization that manages the flow of bulk power in 12 states across the Midwest -- declared an emergency alert due to high temperatures stretching generators to a much higher-than-forecast load.

The agency reported demand surged to its highest point ever in history Wednesday, peaking at 103,975 megawatts and surpassing the last record set on July 31, 2006. Previously in May, the agency said it expected peak demand for the summer to reach 93,842 megawatts, a projected 1.3% increase over 2010.

The Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT) said it documented a peak demand of 64,226 megawatts last Thursday, the all-time highest record for the month of July.

 

[Yodrak]

The midwest could use some solar about now. Contributing to the heat is the bright sun in a cloudless sky. And no wind.

Stressed Grid...New Normal...

 

[EricH]

I'd be interested in hearing your definition of "PV cost-effectiveness, at least ... from a societal perspective."

Residential solar PV, today, is almost impossible to evaluate rationally. The installation costs are subsidized by the state (California), the utilities are forced to pay retail rates (via Net Energy Metering) for the power, and this economic setup is presented to utility customers as an alternative to a (currently) five-tiered residiential rate structure in CA, which has forced virtually all cost increases over the past decade into the top three tiers.

1. Subisizing the upfront cost of solar panels distorts the market (although in CA these rebates are decreasing over time).
2. Enabling customers to generate/use power at different times, for free, suggests that "batteries" are free, which Leaf owners know to be false; solar PV customers may think that using the utility as a 'battery' for night-time usage has no cost, or that utility backup power for cloudy days has no cost -- clearly not true. A solar PV customer who exactly offsets their own usage can have a zero power bill after 12 months of feeding/drawing power from the grid.
3. Are mid-day kWh more valuable than mid-night kWh? Of course, but mid-day kWh are not worth the retail price of energy (see 5-tier rate structure discussion above).
4. I'm not ignoring environmental externalities, nor the (small) efficiency gained by generating power closer to the load centers. But I don't believe that the environmental externalities are so great as to be worth the subsidies that are granted today.
5. As CA utilities are forced to source more of their power from renewables over time, this "delta" will shrink - SCE today gets about 20% of its power from alt/renewable, and probably another 20% from nuclear (carbon-free), so solar PV's "advantage" over fossil sources is only 60% today, and shrinking (state law now requires 30% alt/renew by 2020).

My idea of cost-effectiveness would be to compare the wholesale value of decentralized generation, plus the value of environmental benefits (avoided emissions), to the all-in cost of solar installation. But I don't have values for the environmental benefits, and the regulated rate structure masks the real value of the kWh produced. So I can only dream

 

[AndyH]

Thanks EricH. My view continues to evolve. I used to think that metering at 'avoided cost' was a bit low but wasn't sure full retail was appropriate either. Earlier in the week I was reminded of another benefit to decentralized power: Quality. Grid power is noisy, the industry is working to reduce standards as the grid runs closer to limits, and for years utility companies have been advising that end users install surge suppressors as they can no longer guarantee some power quality limits.

Today's inverters provide very high quality power - and rather than adding another 'degrading influence' to the grid, distributed PV and wind support grid power quality. I suggest that a premium product should absolutely demand a premium price!

As for environmental value and the 'economics' of the externalities, try this exercise: Grab a legal pad and a writing utensil. Put a plastic bag around your head. Start calculating a reasonable tie-in subsidy. It's possible your perception of the value of clean energy will increase as the gas mixture in the plastic bag changes. :lol: (Absolutely - hypothetical only. Do not try this at home or anywhere else. )

 

[DaveEV]

My idea of cost-effectiveness would be to compare the wholesale value of decentralized generation, plus the value of environmental benefits (avoided emissions), to the all-in cost of solar installation. But I don't have values for the environmental benefits, and the regulated rate structure masks the real value of the kWh produced. So I can only dream

People have placed values on the un-paid for costs of coal powered generation (the externalities) - somewhere between an additional 10-30c / kWh.

As for some of your other points:

1. There is a minimum meter fee that must always be paid to be connected to the grid, regardless of how much energy you produce. One can never truly zero out their utility bill.
2. Offsetting your bill at retail rates seems fair to me at current and medium-term PV penetration rates. Your excess generation is going directly to your neighbors and basically eliminates the utilities distribution costs for that power. If the utilities found this unfair, you can be sure that they'd be lobbying like crazy to eliminate this. Forcing the consumer to use batteries to truly offset their meters is not warranted at current penetration levels.