Is electric really better?

[IndyLeaf]

If the desire to communicate was lost and then gradually restored with technology, what do we lose with an ICE vehicle that an EV might help us bring back into our lives?

- quiet
- clean air
- time and money (which is really our time) previously lost to oil changes and ICE-related maintenance
- reduction in waste oil, fluids which translates to cleaner water
- improved health, lower insurance premiums, lower medical bills over time due to reduction/elimination of direct and indirect pollution from drilling, transporting, refining, transporting, and burning petroleum)
- fewer kids sent away to secure oil (which of the ~4000 US military that died in Iraq might have invented a more efficient solar panel or fusion power?)

Others?

Time out... While I have reserved a Leaf too, the real reasons are varied and multiple... The GREEN side is slight, a mild benefit and smaller than you think... The reduction in oil, waste, pollution, cleaner air, cleaner water, all the stuff about better health from pollution reductions, AND lastly the political statement about kids dying to secure oil...

I am buying a Leaf for part of some of all of your reasons but also for the economic part... It will be far more economical to drive than any ICE vehicle. How about when gas is 5.00 or more a gallon? I've seen it go from .20 cents a gallon to over 4.00 in my driving lifetime... It will go higher and faster than electrical prices increase.

Now speaking of electricity, did you know 75% of all the US electricity comes from the burning of fossil fuels? Nearly 50% from coal, 24% from gas, and 1 % from burning oil... Indiana is a state that gets nearly 100% of its electricity all from oil burning.

Too many potential Leaf owners are waiving the Green flag about pollution. The combustion of coal contributes the most to acid rain and air pollution. You will, most of you/us, will only transfer the stuff you don't like to a source that is out of sight and out of mind. I am looking at adding solar or wind power to my home to0 but I have to be able to afford this on my own...

Lastly as a retired military officer- our kids are NOT dying to secure oil... That is a vulgar representation oversimplifying the whole world. Ever heard of terrorism? Where were you when on 911 our Trade Center Towers were attacked? Our kids over there are defending you and your way of life. Have you ever been to the mid east? I have... defending freedom...

Driving an electric car is good for many folks for lots of reasons... but don't kid yourself or go political or be naive...

 

[mitch672]

IndyLeaf, yes, the grid is a lot of fossil fuels (as of now), however, the great thing is, once more EV's are deployed, and charge from the grid, as the grid becomes cleaner with more and more renewable energy, such as Solar, Wind, Geothermal, and yes, even nuclear (although don't get me started on the waste issues), the automotive fleet becomes cleaner and cleaner over time, that is the beauty of electrification of the light duty fleet. It's much more difficult, and takes a lot longer to do this at point of use (the tailpipe of ICE vehicles).

I think that along with these are major reasons to switch to electrification, along with the national security issues of not sending our money to foriegn countries that are not very friendly to the U.S. (some more than others), as well for the balance of trade (again a reason to not send our money overseas), and of course national security of not being able to cripple the country, if we have another oil embargo like we did in the early 70's/or price gouging, which is the economic equivilant of an embargo.

 

[evnow]

Time out... While I have reserved a Leaf too, the real reasons are varied and multiple... The GREEN side is slight, a mild benefit and smaller than you think...

We talked about this earlier. I'm going to merge some of the posts here to that thread.

 

[evnow]

Time out... While I have reserved a Leaf too, the real reasons are varied and multiple... The GREEN side is slight, a mild benefit and smaller than you think...
...
Now speaking of electricity, did you know 75% of all the US electricity comes from the burning of fossil fuels? Nearly 50% from coal, 24% from gas, and 1 % from burning oil... Indiana is a state that gets nearly 100% of its electricity all from oil burning.

As you can imagine I've spent a lot of time reading about and thinking about these issues. Here is my answer to all this from this thread ...

Few things to consider
- This whole "coal" plants is besically a talking point used by various groups interested in prolonging the status quo
- In the long term we need clean grid
- In the long term we need EVs
- To Reduce emissions we need to transition to EVs AND transition out of coal. Since these transitions take a long time, we can't wait for full coal transition to occur before EV transition. We need to start both now.
- The EVs get the benefit of cleaning up of the grid right away without any further capital or time costs.
- EVs help to reduce oil consumption directly
- Even with the current 50% average grid powered by coal, EVs are better than most of the cars, if not the most frugal. But it is better to transition now to EV rather than to a frugal car - only to have to transition away again later.
- Since in the long term we need to move to EVs, we need to get the industry started and get the infrastructure setup. Only by selling commcial EVs can the economies of scale kick in and start reducing cost of EVs.
- There are some 250 million cars in US. Last year car sales sales 10 million. So even if every car sold from next yeat is an EV - it will still take decades to replace the fleet.
- Every year more renewable generation capacity is being added than can be used by EVs in the next decade or so i.e. renewable power generation transition is outpacing EV transition by a large amount.

I'm sure I missed a few points. Transitioning to EVs is a nobrainer.

 

[IndyLeaf]

My bad guys- I did not want to go into/rehash old topics, I was merely replying to one that was in another thread. My reply was moved but not the other one... I am for all the good reasons to get a LEAF... If I did not think it was better- I would not be buying one...

 

[Rik]

Lastly as a retired military officer- our kids are NOT dying to secure oil... That is a vulgar representation oversimplifying the whole world. Ever heard of terrorism? Where were you when on 911 our Trade Center Towers were attacked? Our kids over there are defending you and your way of life. Have you ever been to the mid east? I have... defending freedom...

I agree that it oversimplifies the situation to assert that the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are solely about oil. But without the importance of oil, Iraq would not have invaded Kuwait in 1990, the 1990-91 Persian Gulf War would not have happened, the US military would not have had a presence in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait after that war, Al Qaeda would not exist, 9/11 would not have happened, and the two current wars in that region would not have occurred. No one can say what would have happened instead if oil had not been so important, but it would not be what did happen. The terrorist threat is the main reason our military is engaged in that region of the world. But that terrorist threat would not exist if oil was not important. It does not dishonor or minimize the service and sacrifice of those who serve our nation in uniform to point these things out.

IMO, transitioning away from our dependence on oil, with increased use of home-grown energy sources, will improve our national security for a number of reasons.

 

[evnow]

Lastly as a retired military officer- our kids are NOT dying to secure oil... That is a vulgar representation oversimplifying the whole world. Ever heard of terrorism? Where were you when on 911 our Trade Center Towers were attacked? Our kids over there are defending you and your way of life. Have you ever been to the mid east? I have... defending freedom...

If they only grew carrots in Kuwait we wouldn't be there. Where were you when China invaded Tibet ?

Without oil - we wouldn't be involved in the middle east propping up barbaric dictators - which breads terrorism.

 

[garygid]

What are these "wars" realistically expected to accomplish?
(Other than feed many $ to contractors like Halliburton.)

Perhaps the USA is considered to be the "terrorist" by those who struggle to live daily lives over there?

I personally think that these wars are a useless waste of time, $$, and lives.

 

[AndyH]

Time out... While I have reserved a Leaf too, the real reasons are varied and multiple... The GREEN side is slight, a mild benefit and smaller than you think... The reduction in oil, waste, pollution, cleaner air, cleaner water, all the stuff about better health from pollution reductions, AND lastly the political statement about kids dying to secure oil...

I am buying a Leaf for part of some of all of your reasons but also for the economic part... It will be far more economical to drive than any ICE vehicle. How about when gas is 5.00 or more a gallon? I've seen it go from .20 cents a gallon to over 4.00 in my driving lifetime... It will go higher and faster than electrical prices increase.

Now speaking of electricity, did you know 75% of all the US electricity comes from the burning of fossil fuels? Nearly 50% from coal, 24% from gas, and 1 % from burning oil... Indiana is a state that gets nearly 100% of its electricity all from oil burning.

Too many potential Leaf owners are waiving the Green flag about pollution. The combustion of coal contributes the most to acid rain and air pollution. You will, most of you/us, will only transfer the stuff you don't like to a source that is out of sight and out of mind. I am looking at adding solar or wind power to my home to0 but I have to be able to afford this on my own...

Lastly as a retired military officer- our kids are NOT dying to secure oil... That is a vulgar representation oversimplifying the whole world. Ever heard of terrorism? Where were you when on 911 our Trade Center Towers were attacked? Our kids over there are defending you and your way of life. Have you ever been to the mid east? I have... defending freedom...

Driving an electric car is good for many folks for lots of reasons... but don't kid yourself or go political or be naive...

IndyLeaf,

Thank you for your service to this country. I'm glad you're home safely and hope you're taking time to really enjoy your life.

For the record, I served this country for 21 years and 4 months and am a disabled vet. On 9/11 I was in my uniform and on duty as I was the previous 18 years. I spent nearly half my career outside this country.

I have heard of terrorists. Have you heard of the Mujahedin? This was a group of Afghani freedom fighters resisting a Soviet 'annexation' of part of Afghanistan. Their primary leader and source of funding was a gent from the wealthy Bin Ladin family of Saudi Arabia. To shorten and likely oversimplify the timeline, the US government supported the Mujahedin with training and weapons (the enemy of our enemy), then pulled back resulting in the Mujahedin taking heavy losses and our losing credibility as an ally. Then we came back with support...convinced them to trust us again...and pulled back. (You can find more by following the exploits of Charlie Wilson.) Cutting to the chase -- Osama Bin Ladin came to absolutely hate the US because a former ally proved themselves to be untrustworthy. al-Qaeda and our 'war on terror' is an unintended consequence of wanting to keep the Soviet Union out of Afghanistan.

It sounds as if you have some specialized and focused experience in the region. If you're interested in a 'big picture' view of the Middle East, I highly recommend you read a couple of books by Robert Baer. Start with "Sleeping with the Devil". Mr. Baer "was a case officer in the Directorate of Operations for the Central Intelligence Agency from 1976 to 1997. His overseas assignments included stints in locations such as northern Iraq, Dushanbe, Rabat, Paris, Beirut, Khartoum, and New Delhi. He speaks Arabic, Farsi, French, and German. He has handled agents who infiltrated Hizballah, PFLP-GC, PSF, Libyan intelligence, Fatah-Hawari, and Al-Qaeda." He had to run his books past the CIA prior to publication and many of the pages look like this:

As for the 'green' benefits of electric transportation, I do understand your point of moving the source of pollution. But I strongly object to your suggestion that the green benefit is slight. The US EIA reports that 43.9% our electricity came from coal in 2009. Department of Energy studies clearly show that even with our current mix of coal plants in the US, EVs are significantly cleaner than an ICE vehicle. And that translates into cleaner air, cleaner water, fewer ozone alert days, lower asthma rates, etc. etc. Since about 70% of Americans live in cities, and the air quality is worse there than downwind of a coal plant, I see widespread electrification of transportation essential to the continued health of our country.

Our Presidents have been warning us of our addiction to oil for more than 30 years. Our reliance on oil is a direct and significant drain on our economy, on our people, and on our national security. The disaster playing out in the Gulf is only the tip of the iceberg that's been 'hidden in plain site' for far too long. That's not politics - those are facts. The symbolism of dinosaur ways of thinking forcing continued reliance on dead dinosaurs is somewhat telling...

Thank you again for your service. Good luck with your Leaf and your move to clean power. We're both home and retired. I look forward to the day that my friends and kids I supervised are also home and retired.

Andy

 

[evnow]

I have heard of terrorists. Have you heard of the Mujahedin? This was a group of Afghani freedom fighters resisting a Soviet 'annexation' of part of Afghanistan.

It is the same snake pit. Snakes are going to bite back eventually - as we found out in 9/11, Pakistan is finding out now and India figured out a long time back as 60,000 innocent people have been killed there by "freedom fighters".

Zia ul-Haq fooled the US into pumping millions upon millions into Pakistan in the name of mujahaddeen. Musharaf did the same in the name of "war on terror".

Coming back to the original point, the basic terrorist breeding ground is the "schools" in Pakistan funded by Saudi Arabia. Would Bin Laden or Saudis have money to fund these snake pits but for oil ?

 

[AndyH]

Coming back to the original point, the basic terrorist breeding ground is the "schools" in Pakistan funded by Saudi Arabia. Would Bin Laden or Saudis have money to fund these snake pits but for oil ?

Just as al-Qaeda and their hate for us appears to be an unintended consequence of our support to Afghanistan during the Soviet occupation, and much of the weapons of mass destruction Saddam used in Iraq were the munitions we gave/sold him during the Iran/Iraq war, our oil money to Saudi Arabia is funding the fundamentalist views thru the region. We're ultimately funding the folks that are growing the suicide bombers, and funding the resistance to the fundamentalist threat. Toss in our incentives and tax breaks to the overall oil industry, and the portion of the military budget to secure the areas and protect the transportation corridors and we pay a hell of a lot more for a gallon of gas than is listed on the face of any gas pump. And that's before we consider pollution, carbon, climate change, or health effects of the transportation fuel industry.

Ain't this fun?!

[edit...removed incorrect statement that Shi'a=fundamentalist...thanks evnow!]

 

[LEAFer]

If you haven't had a chance to watch "Three Days of the Condor" ... a movie I won't forget and watched when it came out during my high school days ... rent it. Make sure to watch all the way to and through the last few minutes ...

 

[evnow]

Just as al-Qaeda and their hate for us appears to be an unintended consequence of our support to Afghanistan during the Soviet occupation

The way the mujahaddeen were made to fight was simple - brainwash them with religious fundamentalism. Once that is done - it doesn't take them long to realize who the culprits are w.r.t. Palestine. Their hatred for us has nothing to do with Afghanistan - it has to do with what we have done in ME. They think the governments in ME are not "pure" enough - and they realize those governments survive because of our support.

.. our oil money to Saudi Arabia is funding the Shi'a minority that are propagating the fundamentalist views thru the region....

You have got this confused. Shia are the southern Iraq/Iran people (mostly). House of Saud follow the Wahhabi sect - a sunny muslim ideology - not unlike Deobandi that Taleban follow. Bin Laden is a puritan Wahhabi or perhaps more closely Qutbism that gave raise to Egyptian Brotherhood.

Checkout Prof Cole's blog for good commentary on ME (http://www.juancole.com/).

 

[AndyH]

You have got this confused. Shia are the southern Iraq/Iran people (mostly). House of Saud follow the Wahhabi sect - a sunny muslim ideology - not unlike Deobandi that Taleban follow. Bin Laden is a puritan Wahhabi or perhaps more closely Qutbism that gave raise to Egyptian Brotherhood.

Checkout Prof Cole's blog for good commentary on ME (http://www.juancole.com/).

Thanks! fixed the post.
I recently reread a section of Baer's 'Devil' that was talking about Iraq and apparently crossed a neuron or six...sorry.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

i think in all this "green" talk we are all on the same sides but presenting it at different angles. pushing our own littlg agendas of the "best" reason for the Leaf is fine, but dont belittle the other person's best reason either. purple is a great color and i dont think any less of anyone who thinks its the best color because from their point of view they honestly believe what they are saying.

as far as pollution, even if 100% of our electricity was produced by high sulfur content coal, it would still be more than 80% cleaner by chemistry than burning gasoline.

we can go back to analogy of how much energy we get out of a gallon of gas and its a lot. but burning it in a car is the least efficient way to get that energy put to work. Even a Prius is several levels below the efficiency of a large power plant and always will be. the simple startup and warmup penalties of the car puts it at an insurmountable disadvantage.

but then we come to cleaning up the emissions. what is easier? regulating, modifying and monitoring 400 million tail pipes or 15,000 power plant stacks?

what can be replaced easier??? electric lights or gas consuming cars??

as u can see, a world without gasoline powered vehicles is imaginable, a world without electricity is not

 

[garygid]

Imagine ... how the world managed for centuries before the "electrical" age.
Different life style, different values, and a much smaller population to "support".

I think of AVATAR, and I like it.

 

[evnow]

Imagine ... how the world managed for centuries before the "electrical" age.
Different life style, different values, and a much smaller population to "support".

There were pre-iron age empires - even empires without wheels (in America). There are people who think deindustrialization will happen in post peak oil situation ...

I think of AVATAR, and I like it.

Ofcource AVATAR was the result of a lot of electricity usage :twisted:

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

another thing we fail to recognized it that vessels containing petroleum based products tend to leak... no not oil tankers; i am talking about CARS.

about 6-7 years ago, a study was performed analyzing the runoff in the Puget Sound region. it was determined that oil, tranny fluid, brake fuild and other toxins that were accidentally spilled, purposefully dumped or simply cars that leaked were responsible for dumping the equivalent of the Exxon Valdez every 4-6 years. the alarming part was that 80% was from leaking cars.

the oil dribbles out of the car. it sits on the street. it rains, it gets washed into an untreated storm drain and it flows eventually into Puget Sound. now because of that study, i currently pay $30 a month subsidy on my water bill along with another $15 for LOTT (treatment plant upgrade) , (yep $45 a month) which converted about 75% of the drains in my area to treated ones. problem is, the treatment plant cannot handle the heavier rains and still dumps hundreds of thousands of gallons of partially treated or untreated stormwater into the Sound anyway.

its kinda of ironic, that where i live, i should be paying one of the lowest water bills in the country and i technically am. the "water" portion of my bill runs $12-14 a month, but the bill is actually $75 a month.

without the additional cost of treating storm water, my total water bill would be around $30. so when i add up my annual gasoline bill, i add in another $540 because if we did not drive gasoline powered cars, that would be one bill i would not have to pay

 

[sjfotos]

Yes, that is just one more factor in the real subsidy paid for oil based transportation.....really awful

 

[MikeBoxwell]

There are lots of different studies comparing electric cars with gasoline, to see which one is better in terms of CO2 rating. A lot of them are really poorly researched, others of them are very good indeed.

The ones that come down on the side of gasoline tend to be the ones that measure the 'tank to wheel' emissions for gasoline, and 'well to wheel' emissions for electricity. In other words, for gasoline cars they assume there is no environmental impact for extracting the oil from the oil well, getting it to the refinery, refining it, transporting it to the service station and storing it there.

Once you take into account the transportation and refining processes for oil, electric cars always come out better than the equivalent gasoline car.

At the beginning of this year, I carried out a series of real world environmental tests with a Mitsubishi i-MiEV and a G-Wiz, comparing them with two comparable gasoline cars available here in Europe - a Toyota Aygo and a Fiat Panda. I'm hoping to carry out the tests again this summer - this time with a Nissan LEAF as one of the test electric cars.

The results were conclusively in favour of electric cars. In fact, I was quite surprised how much better off an electric car was over a gasoline equivalent.

Here is the YouTube video that I made that described the tests and the results: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSVc2SrXVIk