LEAF advisory group

[surfingslovak]

Ah. Well, I can't speak for others.

Of course, and I shouldn't be too critical, since I'm guilty by association.

But this group seems to be plenty vociferous (at least in person! Current posting rate not withstanding). Anything in particular that you'd like to know about this initial visit?

Oh, good! The way I read the situation, most everyone on this board will welcome better and more informed discussion. Personally, I would be curious about the direction of Nissan's EV program. Especially when it comes to Infinity LE, and other more potent offerings down the road. Don't get me wrong, the LEAF is a great city car, and a good gateway drug ;-)

Ah... and Jeff. How great is Jeff? Trust me when I say that he's even more fun in person.

Great to hear. We got to shake hands in Phoenix, but I was keeping in the background, since this was an event for and about AZ owners.

I just about have a handle on the jet-lag now. But I still need to get to bed!

Good luck with that, and thanks for posting. I'm sure there will be more time to catch up in the days and weeks to come.

 

[darelldd]

Personally, I would be curious about the direction of Nissan's EV program. Especially when it comes to Infinity LE, and other more potent offerings down the road. Don't get me wrong, the LEAF is a great city car, and a good gateway drug ;-)

On this one, our hands are a bit tied. But I can say with no reservation that Nissan is fully (the baby, the bathwater, the whole bit) committed to an EV future. There is no other major car maker (I'm going to have to leave Tesla out until they become "major") that has this vision and commitment. Exciting times are ahead!

Their direction is simple: Full ahead with their EV program.

And now to bed.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

Exciting times are ahead!

Their direction is simple: Full ahead with their EV program.

Thank you for update. It seems that skipping '13 model, and waiting for full Leaf update is right thing to do.

 

[darelldd]

Exciting times are ahead!

Their direction is simple: Full ahead with their EV program.

Thank you for update. It seems that skipping '13 model, and waiting for full Leaf update is right thing to do.

Interestingly, one item we were not privy to was where the LEAF model specifically was headed after 2013.

With that said, the whole "wait and see" thing only gets you so far. I've always contended that the best time to buy solar was "last year." And really, the best time to buy an EV is NOW. But that's only if you don't already drive an EV.

 

[RegGuheert]

With that said, the whole "wait and see" thing only gets you so far. I've always contended that the best time to buy solar was "last year." And really, the best time to buy an EV is NOW. But that's only if you don't already drive an EV.

I agree with that, in general. However, EdmondLeaf lives in a very hot climate so I will also agree with his idea to wait since it is clear that the 2013 LEAF battery is very similar to 2012, only 30kg lighter and cheaper. I do not get the impression that it will handle the heat any better.

 

[darelldd]

I agree with that, in general. However, EdmondLeaf lives in a very hot climate so I will also agree with his idea to wait since it is clear that the 2013 LEAF battery is very similar to 2012, only 30kg lighter and cheaper. I do not get the impression that it will handle the heat any better.

Agreed. The 2013 battery is likely to deal with high heat per specification, just as the previous battery did. Probably no better or worse.

 

[LEAFfan]

With that said, the whole "wait and see" thing only gets you so far. I've always contended that the best time to buy solar was "last year." And really, the best time to buy an EV is NOW. But that's only if you don't already drive an EV.

I agree with that, in general. However, EdmondLeaf lives in a very hot climate so I will also agree with his idea to wait since it is clear that the 2013 LEAF battery is very similar to 2012, only 30kg lighter and cheaper. I do not get the impression that it will handle the heat any better.

It may be similar, but it definitely isn't the same since they tweaked the chemistry. It may be better
or behave the same. Time will tell.

 

[TomT]

The tweak is minor and not to improve the battery in any way. I expect no difference in performance or temperature degradation sensitivity...

It may be similar, but it definitely isn't the same since they tweaked the chemistry. It may be better
or behave the same. Time will tell.

 

[LEAFfan]

The tweak is minor and not to improve the battery in any way. I expect no difference in performance or temperature degradation sensitivity...

It may be similar, but it definitely isn't the same since they tweaked the chemistry. It may be better
or behave the same. Time will tell.

How do you know it's minor? If it were minor, Nissan would have told us, but they didn't.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

The tweak is minor and not to improve the battery in any way. I expect no difference in performance or temperature degradation sensitivity...

It may be similar, but it definitely isn't the same since they tweaked the chemistry. It may be better
or behave the same. Time will tell.

What kind of statement is that? I can understand an attempted tweak that did not get the desired results, I can understand a tweak towards a different goal, but to tweak for nothing?

Tom; you have been one of the most valued contributors on this board for a long time and I get that you have a growing frustration with Nissan are not elated with your LEAF as you once were, but your comments have lost any basis of sensibility.

I am in no way disputing your right to speak, but the negativity is beginning to be JUST that. it does not bring anything to this forum. There are a lot of negative people here who are still able to justify their negativity or at least attempt to.

During the tour of the battery plant we were advised that the tweaks (which are ongoing ALL the time) were to specifically address heat tolerance. the casing was changed from a 100% enclosed 2012 case to a much lighter and vented 2013 case.

AESC and Nissan admitted their primary concern for the battery pack was stability and safety and admits they may have gone overboard on the safety thing. If you have seen the older modules, you will have noticed the thick steel casing was heavy.

the 2013 casing does allow you to actually see the modules. now, how much cooling that venting will provide? well, dont know. there is minimal spacing after the modules are installed into the pack but we cannot deny that the old pack retained heat much longer than expected.

I blogged about an experiment I did when charging during the day on one of our hot steaks last Summer and seeing it take nearly 2 days for the TB bars to settle back to normal after the experiment ended. now, the observations are very much non confirming of anything due to their granularity but nevertheless, something that someone who has the ability to monitor pack temperature might want to look at and I think that AESC and Nissan did look at that, hence the tweak.

now, will it be enough? for some of the country, sure. for AZ??

 

[Herm]

Unless Nissan does a major tweak such as replacing the electrolyte with something completely different then they will have to provide forced ventilation of the pack.. anything helps.

 

[LEAFfan]

The tweak is minor and not to improve the battery in any way. I expect no difference in performance or temperature degradation sensitivity...

It may be similar, but it definitely isn't the same since they tweaked the chemistry. It may be better
or behave the same. Time will tell.

What kind of statement is that? I can understand an attempted tweak that did not get the desired results, I can understand a tweak towards a different goal, but to tweak for nothing?

Tom; you have been one of the most valued contributors on this board for a long time and I get that you have a growing frustration with Nissan are not elated with your LEAF as you once were, but your comments have lost any basis of sensibility.

I am in no way disputing your right to speak, but the negativity is beginning to be JUST that. it does not bring anything to this forum. There are a lot of negative people here who are still able to justify their negativity or at least attempt to.

During the tour of the battery plant we were advised that the tweaks (which are ongoing ALL the time) were to specifically address heat tolerance. the casing was changed from a 100% enclosed 2012 case to a much lighter and vented 2013 case.

AESC and Nissan admitted their primary concern for the battery pack was stability and safety and admits they may have gone overboard on the safety thing. If you have seen the older modules, you will have noticed the thick steel casing was heavy.

the 2013 casing does allow you to actually see the modules. now, how much cooling that venting will provide? well, dont know. there is minimal spacing after the modules are installed into the pack but we cannot deny that the old pack retained heat much longer than expected.

I blogged about an experiment I did when charging during the day on one of our hot steaks last Summer and seeing it take nearly 2 days for the TB bars to settle back to normal after the experiment ended. now, the observations are very much non confirming of anything due to their granularity but nevertheless, something that someone who has the ability to monitor pack temperature might want to look at and I think that AESC and Nissan did look at that, hence the tweak.

now, will it be enough? for some of the country, sure. for AZ??

They also tweaked the chemistry which OE posted a link about NEC that showed it could make for a more robust pack.

 

[Nubo]

AESC and Nissan admitted their primary concern for the battery pack was stability and safety and admits they may have gone overboard on the safety thing. If you have seen the older modules, you will have noticed the thick steel casing was heavy.

the 2013 casing does allow you to actually see the modules. now, how much cooling that venting will provide? well, dont know. there is minimal spacing after the modules are installed into the pack but we cannot deny that the old pack retained heat much longer than expected.

As significant as a high overall pack temperature is, the other part of the story which I don't think anyone here has measured, is the temperature gradient inside the pack. If (e.g.) when the pack as a whole is 100F, the center of mass is 120F, that would be significant, I think. If such a gradient could be reduced by allowing internal air movement, it could help overall. By bringing that heat energy more rapidly to the external case, it would also increase the thermal transfer out of the pack, by Newton's Law.

 

[davewill]

What kind of statement is that? I can understand an attempted tweak that did not get the desired results, I can understand a tweak towards a different goal, but to tweak for nothing? ...

It was clearly stated earlier that they tweaked the battery cells for cost reasons.

 

[TonyWilliams]

During the tour of the battery plant we were advised that the tweaks (which are ongoing ALL the time) were to specifically address heat tolerance. the casing was changed from a 100% enclosed 2012 case to a much lighter and vented 2013 case.

I'm not sure why these tweaks would be needed when we heard so much "Nissan-Normal(TM)" last summer. Could it be that they were pumping us with bullshit then?

Yes, it's a rhetorical question.

I sincerely hope that THIS summer, we don't have to continue with the bullshit stories.

 

[surfingslovak]

What kind of statement is that? I can understand an attempted tweak that did not get the desired results, I can understand a tweak towards a different goal, but to tweak for nothing? ...

It was clearly stated earlier that they tweaked the battery cells for cost reasons.

Yes, that's my understanding as well. Andy mentioned that chemistry tweak at the Town Hall without elaborating on it further. Not sure if he was familiar with the details, and if this was mentioned because they knew it would help folks in AZ or there was a chance that it might.

They also tweaked the chemistry which OE posted a link about NEC that showed it could make for a more robust pack.

Yes, but we don't know if it's related to this particular change Nissan implemented. There is a chance of that, yes. As an aside, I would take most of the things OE says about the battery with a grain salt. That is, if he didn't get them straight from Nissan, which he didn't in this case.

I sincerely hope that THIS summer, we don't have to continue with the bullshit stories.

Me too! And more range tests. I'm running out of frequent flyer miles ;-)

 

[thankyouOB]

During the tour of the battery plant we were advised that the tweaks (which are ongoing ALL the time) were to specifically address heat tolerance. the casing was changed from a 100% enclosed 2012 case to a much lighter and vented 2013 case.

I'm not sure why these tweaks would be needed when we heard so much "Nissan-Normal(TM)" last summer. Could it be that they were pumping us with bullshit then?

Yes, it's a rhetorical question.

I sincerely hope that THIS summer, we don't have to continue with the bullshit stories.

Surely, Tony, you know you are a valuable and valued member of this community. is there some reason that you continue to use vulgarities repeatedly in your postings?
You might try a thesaurus.

 

[TonyWilliams]

During the tour of the battery plant we were advised that the tweaks (which are ongoing ALL the time) were to specifically address heat tolerance. the casing was changed from a 100% enclosed 2012 case to a much lighter and vented 2013 case.

I'm not sure why these tweaks would be needed when we heard so much "Nissan-Normal(TM)" last summer. Could it be that they were pumping us with bullshit then?

Yes, it's a rhetorical question.

I sincerely hope that THIS summer, we don't have to continue with the bullshit stories.

Surely, Tony, you know you are a valuable and valued member of this community. is there some reason that you continue to use vulgarities repeatedly in your postings?
You might try a thesaurus.

Vulgarities? Where I grew up, those were "cow pies", so maybe that's better.

bullshit
Synonyms and related words:
babble, balderdash, balls, baloney, big talk, bilge, blabber, blague, blah, blah-blah, blather, bop, bosh, bull, bunk, bunkum, claptrap, crap, drivel, drool, eyewash, fancy talk, fine talk, fish story, flam, flapdoodle, flimflam, gabble, gammon, gas, gibber, gibble-gabble, guff, gup, highfalutin, highfaluting, hogwash, hoke, hokum, hooey, hot air, humbug, humbuggery, jabber, jiggery-pokery, malarkey, moonshine, piffle, poppycock, prate, prattle, rattle, rot, scat, ****, talk nonsense, tall story, tall talk, tommyrot, tripe, twaddle, twattle, vapor, waffle, wind

 

[OrientExpress]

They also tweaked the chemistry which OE posted a link about NEC that showed it could make for a more robust pack.
Yes, but we don't know if it's related to this particular change Nissan implemented. There is a chance of that, yes. As an aside, I would take most of the things OE says about the battery with a grain salt. That is, if he didn't get them straight from Nissan, which he didn't in this case.

George, My postings are based on facts that come from my contacts within Nissan and the industry, not on speculation, and that my lay friend is a fact.

 

[Phoenix]

....

Starting a new thread is probably prudent, too. Good idea. <<snip, snip>>

Let me see if this works for pictures: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/fk9hikj87rn6y9r/Y_kcpwfN1k" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Darell: Those are some neat photos of the sleek QC design. Is that all there is to Nissan's QC pedestal? I notice that Blink has a separate "power box" usually situated near their two-hosed pedestals. Same for Eaton/TEPCO and their bulky pedestal and power box. Is Nissan the same but the "power box" is not in view?