LEAF advisory group

[EdmondLeaf]

evchels,
did Nissan say anything about a member loyalty program to spur sales on the 2013 LEAF ?

A similar but broader topic did come up in a discussion with a few execs- not specifically just a traditional owner loyalty program, but an overall referral/reward plan. It was primarily a question of what we thought of such an idea, so I don't have anything specific to report about whether it's any more serious or further along than that. As you might imagine, we wholeheartedly endorsed it and gave a few ideas, and I've noted it as a subject for us to explore further with them.

I got reference check from dealer, that was nice, and as promised

 

[Nubo]

Vulgarities? Where I grew up, those were "cow pies", so maybe that's better.

Reporter: How do you get your flowers to grow so well?
Gardener (Benny Hill): I always apply plenty of manure.
Reporter: You really should learn to call it "fertilizer".
Benny: Eh? It took me 20 years to learn to call it "manure"!

 

[surfingslovak]

Before you go off half cocked with unverifiable claims again, I would encourage you to do better legwork and to take more time to do your research about issues such as these in the future. As far as the veracity of your judgement and opinion, you are your best reference.

I did not make that statement, LEAFfan did. I told him that there was likely no connection between the chemistry tweak Nissan recently talked about, and the NEC story. As to his claim about seeing a comment from you about it, I told him not to take it seriously, if there was a post about that. Much like most of the things you wrote on the topic here last year, and subsequently deleted. I believe that it's in everyone's best interest if we moved on, and I hope you agree.

 

[GRA]

Vulgarities? Where I grew up, those were "cow pies", so maybe that's better.

Reporter: How do you get your flowers to grow so well?
Gardener (Benny Hill): I always apply plenty of manure.
Reporter: You really should learn to call it "fertilizer".
Benny: Eh? It took me 20 years to learn to call it "manure"!

I've seen almost the exact same quote attributed to Bess Truman, speaking to a reporter about Harry. But then Benny Hill was never bashful about recycling old material. (Edit) Here it is:

(HST) Say, Rose, there's a story going around about me these days. It says that some old party hen is supposed to have cornered Bess at some party, and said, "Mrs. Truman, isn't there anything you can do to get the President to stop using the word 'manure'?" And Bess is supposed to have replied, "It took me forty years to get him to use that word!"

 

[Stoaty]

I would second Chelsea's comments. Keeping current Nissan EV customers future Nissan EV customers is high on the Nissan EV sales radar. SF BayLEAFs has also provided Nissan with several ideas on how to bring this to fruition, and we hope to see these ideas brought into reality in 2013.

For myself, making a couple of small software tweaks for 2011-2012 owners would go a long way:

--Allow us to run the fan without heat or A/C
--Allow the option to display percent SOC in place of the Guessometer mileage prediction

 

[OrientExpress]

--Allow us to run the fan without heat or A/C
--Allow the option to display percent SOC in place of the Guessometer mileage prediction

Great minds think alike, as we made those exact recommendations last fall. Unfortunately it was too late to get into this product cycle, but we have great hopes for MY2014. Nissan is listening very intently on everyones first impressions of the 2013, with the goal of further refining the 2014s.

 

[jstack6]

Chelsea, Is the advisory group now all filled? I would like to volunteer for it to represent the desert heat issues and how they can be improved.

I was the only one at the LEAF open house in Scottsdale to offer my thanks to the team for coming out and I gave them 3 suggestions to help improve the LEAF at very low cost for heat mitigation. The Nissan VPs said they would check on them but I haven't heard anything since then.

I've had my 2011 for almost 2 years and 21K miles.

 

[Volusiano]

I was the only one at the LEAF open house in Scottsdale to offer my thanks to the team for coming out

Really? Nobody else but you thanked the team for coming out? How rude of everybody else who showed up there for not thanking the team... Sorry to hear that...

and I gave them 3 suggestions to help improve the LEAF at very low cost for heat mitigation. The Nissan VPs said they would check on them but I haven't heard anything since then.

Can you share here what your 3 very low cost suggestions for heat mitigation are?

 

[jstack6]

Sure my 3 simple ideas to improve are.
Also after thinking they are really serious I added 2 more ideas and emailed new VP Billy so he can lead them if they are really interested.

1- use the solar panels to run a few muffin type fans to circulate air when the car is parked. It's an easy way to move air and that is always much cooler than the heat the builds up. Even the liquid cooled cars don't help their batteries when parked and not plugged in but a LEAF in the sun could help. It could even run off the started battery for 2 to 5 minutes when you park. Just to move some heat off the battery.

2- When you pre heat or pre-cool it also changes the battery so if your at 80% like I did for the entire 1 year ,when to try to precondition you charge beyond the 80%, If your at 100% you top off. This is not good and should just be a soft ware charge.

3- Have options to charge to 80%, 85%, 90% and 95% . Then as the battery get sold you don't have to charge to 100% which we are told is not good for the battery life. Also if a new owner can't live on 80% the first year they know they need a different car or short drives. Each year they can move up 5% and still go as far as they did the 1st year.

The last 2 ideas I added later are

4- Add an additional 6 Kw to the battery , like a few other companies are selling and have a 30 Kw battery. This could go 120-140 miles and could double sales. It's only 155 lbs and can easily fit in the trunk area below the floor in an area that doesn't get used much. The balance and weight would not require any changes.

5- 5- A Micro Fiber option or fau leather (fake )should be offered instead of leather. Just like fur coats leather is not an accepted option for many people. They want long life leather like material and Micro fiber does that and is socially accepted

 

[Volusiano]

Sure my 3 simple ideas to improve are.
Also after thinking they are really serious I added 2 more ideas and emailed new VP Billy so he can lead them if they are really interested.

1- use the solar panels to run a few muffin type fans to circulate air when the car is parked. It's an easy way to move air and that is always much cooler than the heat the builds up. Even the liquid cooled cars don't help their batteries when parked and not plugged in but a LEAF in the sun could help. It could even run off the started battery for 2 to 5 minutes when you park. Just to move some heat off the battery.

If you're talking about running a few tiny fans off of the existing solar panel on the LEAF to circulate cabin air, that's not going to help anything to cool the traction battery. It's the scorched pavement that's going to cook up the traction battery from underneath, not the cabin temperature that's baking up the battery from above. Even if they redesign the traction battery casing to force more airflow to it, when you're looking at 115F ambient temperature, passive air cooling doesn't help because the ambient air is already just as hot. You need active cooling using AC compression cooling technology to truly reduce the temperature. Same analogy why air flow in our home alone during AZ summer is not enough and we MUST have AC to cool our home.

2- When you pre heat or pre-cool it also changes the battery so if your at 80% like I did for the entire 1 year ,when to try to precondition you charge beyond the 80%, If your at 100% you top off. This is not good and should just be a soft ware charge.

I totally don't understand what you're trying to say here.

3- Have options to charge to 80%, 85%, 90% and 95% . Then as the battery get sold you don't have to charge to 100% which we are told is not good for the battery life. Also if a new owner can't live on 80% the first year they know they need a different car or short drives. Each year they can move up 5% and still go as far as they did the 1st year.

What does this have to do with being a low cost solution for heat mitigation? At best, this is just a reaction in trying to get more range. With easily 20% capacity loss in the first year alone already in AZ, one needs to jump straight to 100% charging to make up for this 20% first year capacity loss. No need to give it 5% increment because a 20% increment is needed right up front to address a 20% loss.

The last 2 ideas I added later are

4- Add an additional 6 Kw to the battery , like a few other companies are selling and have a 30 Kw battery. This could go 120-140 miles and could double sales. It's only 155 lbs and can easily fit in the trunk area below the floor in an area that doesn't get used much. The balance and weight would not require any changes.

This is easy for you to ask Nissan, but not easy for Nissan to implement. Otherwise they would have done it already.

 

[TEG]

..we have great hopes for MY2014. Nissan is listening very intently on everyones first impressions of the 2013, with the goal of further refining the 2014s...

The black cloth interior in the SL model...
I want every option *except* leather.

 

[RegGuheert]

2- When you pre heat or pre-cool it also changes the battery so if your at 80% like I did for the entire 1 year ,when to try to precondition you charge beyond the 80%, If your at 100% you top off. This is not good and should just be a soft ware charge.

I totally don't understand what you're trying to say here.

I think the point being made is that the current behavior is to add charge to the vehicle when pre-heating or cooling and that Nissan should fix the software to hold the charge constant.

I will point out that this should not have much effect on battery life since the higher SOC will only exist until you get into the car and drive. The problem with high SOC occurs if you leave the SOC high for a long time.

 

[Volusiano]

2- When you pre heat or pre-cool it also changes the battery so if your at 80% like I did for the entire 1 year ,when to try to precondition you charge beyond the 80%, If your at 100% you top off. This is not good and should just be a soft ware charge.

I totally don't understand what you're trying to say here.

I think the point being made is that the current behavior is to add charge to the vehicle when pre-heating or cooling and that Nissan should fix the software to hold the charge constant.

I will point out that this should not have much effect on battery life since the higher SOC will only exist until you get into the car and drive. The problem with high SOC occurs if you leave the SOC high for a long time.

Thanks. I didn't understand what he was saying before because I couldn't get past some typos (changes instead of charges) and also some misplaced punctuation. But I understand now.

And I also agree that this wouldn't do anything to help with battery life DUE TO HEAT. Sure, avoiding 100% charge can help with battery life due to high SOC, but not due to heat.

And like you said, if people precondition, it implies that they'd jump into the car and drive off shortly afterward anyway, so 100% SOC for very short duration shouldn't hurt the battery life very much anyway. So even if this software change is implemented, its impact on improving battery life is minimal -> not that helpful.

 

[JPWhite]

The last 2 ideas I added later are

4- Add an additional 6 Kw to the battery , like a few other companies are selling and have a 30 Kw battery. This could go 120-140 miles and could double sales. It's only 155 lbs and can easily fit in the trunk area below the floor in an area that doesn't get used much. The balance and weight would not require any changes.

This is easy for you to ask Nissan, but not easy for Nissan to implement. Otherwise they would have done it already.

The rumors in Nashville are this is exactly what Nissan are considering for both the Infiniti LE and LEAF. Give the purchaser the option of 24kWh battery or a 30kWh battery.

 

[KJD]

The rumors in Nashville are this is exactly what Nissan are considering for both the Infiniti LE and LEAF. Give the purchaser the option of 24kWh battery or a 30kWh battery.

That would be a good option to have and a better option would be a 36kwh pack.

If they were to do a 30kwh option, that would give us an extra 6kwh to use.
At say 4 miles per kwh that would be an extra 24 miles of range.
The EPA range numbers would go from 73 to 97.

The LEAF needs to have triple digit range numbers to be a mainstream vehicle. What do you guys think?

 

[Bicster]

The black cloth interior in the SL model...
I want every option *except* leather.

It should not be a problem to find a dealer or existing LEAF owner willing to do a seat swap with an SV. Yes, it's extra hassle. I can certainly see why Nissan wants to keep the number of trim levels and options to a minimum on this car until sales pick up.

 

[RegGuheert]

The LEAF needs to have triple digit range numbers to be a mainstream vehicle. What do you guys think?

I agree, but it will likely never be enough for some people.

 

[MrIanB]

The rumors in Nashville are this is exactly what Nissan are considering for both the Infiniti LE and LEAF. Give the purchaser the option of 24kWh battery or a 30kWh battery.

That would be a good option to have and a better option would be a 36kwh pack.

If they were to do a 30kwh option, that would give us an extra 6kwh to use.
At say 4 miles per kwh that would be an extra 24 miles of range.
The EPA range numbers would go from 73 to 97.

The LEAF needs to have triple digit range numbers to be a mainstream vehicle. What do you guys think?

It better have tripple digit with the a/c and/or heater on at full blast before I consider another Leaf. Right now, Chili will be going back to the orphanage where she came from once the lease is over. Waiting on the BMW and Tesla lease offers once they are available. Not sure if the Infiniti LE will have a longer range than the Leaf once released. If all things still the same, will give the Volt a strong consideration for my next lease.

Ian B

 

[RegGuheert]

If they were to do a 30kwh option, that would give us an extra 6kwh to use.
At say 4 miles per kwh that would be an extra 24 miles of range.
The EPA range numbers would go from 73 to 97.

I guess since I have been harping on the fact that reducing capacity reduces range by a larger percentage, I need to be consistent and say that INCREASING capacity increases range by a larger percentage, also.

In this case, if battery capacity is increased by 25%, I would expect range to increase by something like 30%, perhaps a bit more. So I would expect the EPA number to go up to 95 miles if not more. So I'll agree with your estimate of 97 miles as being right in the ballpark.

I wish we had 2013 EPA numbers to work with, as that would be more relevant at this point in time.

 

[Bicster]

I think 125 miles of actual range would help out. Actual range with heat/AC and highway driving, without worries about degradation. In other words, what Tesla did with the RAV4.

Now, keep in mind, I live in the land of conservatives and big oil (and I get my paycheck from big oil), so I don't pretend to know how people react to EVs elsewhere. But when I mention to people that I want an EV, I get the following reactions:

1) That's crazy
2) What are you going to do when you run out of juice
3) How are you going to take a road trip
4) That's crazy (variation)
5) That's strange (variation)
6) Too early, unproven technology, etc
7) I didn't know you were a hippie (honestly, I have heard this a few times)

Almost no-one asks relevant questions. They are dismissive, not interested.

It's very disheartening. I want someone to share my EV enthusiasm with, in meatspace, not just online. I can explain all day that I've never run out of gas, live well within the range constraints of current EVs, have an ICE vehicle for road trips, and all the advantages of having an EV, but people still write it off as strange and/or crazy. I don't think that particular perception of EVs is likely to change around here until long range EVs (250-300 miles) become common and affordable, AND there is charging infrastructure that can dump a LOT of range quickly into the vehicle.

I am fortunate that my wife doesn't think it's crazy. She finds it intriguing. I think as long as I get an EV that is the right combination of affordable, practical, and reliable, she'll be on board.

Also ... What's up with L2 chargers going in at places like Walgreens in the middle of nowhere? If I need to spend several hours filling up my electron tank, why not put the EVSE somewhere people might actually be inclined to hang out for 2-4 hours? You can't do 4 hours of shopping at a drugstore. I can understand the L3 chargers at these places ... that's actually useful. Why aren't there any along the highways? Why do I have to pay $89/mo to access them? It's ridiculous. Again, I understand the picture is not the same in AZ or CA ... That's just my $0.02

Anyway ... 125 miles of minimum and lasting range would help around here. It would enable trips to Galveston without waypoint charging. And some fast chargers along the corridors would make trips to other cities pleasant.