Lizard Pack Holding Up

[Evoforce]

Yes, the 2011 that I now call (9 bar car) spent most of it's life in Sherman Oaks California, and when it was turned in after lease, was sold at auction and shipped to a dealer in Arizona. I bought it when it was at 10 bars.

The 2011 (Lizard car) is original to Arizona and it's battery was changed out at 22,000ish miles in December 2014. Both vehicles have been losing the same capacity, currently 7% SOH respectively since I began tracking them.

The lizard battery is at 93% SOH and it was at 100% SOH when I began tracking it. It is very interesting to me that they are degrading the same over the same calendar time frame. So in fact, I am disappointed that my Lizard (with 2,400 less traveled miles in same time frame) is not holding up any better than my other car with original battery.

I am hoping that this will not continue to track the same, but I am about to lose the ability to use the older battery car, to pace the Lizard battery car. But... I will soon be able to have two lizard batteries (I hope) to compare to each other.

 

[NeilBlanchard]

If we discuss 2011's in a thread about the Lizard pack, we will confuse some folks. Please limit this thread to Lizard batteries.

 

[dhanson865]

If we discuss 2011's in a thread about the Lizard pack, we will confuse some folks. Please limit this thread to Lizard batteries.

You seem to be confused. There are 2011 cars in this thread that have a lizard battery. Please reread the thread.

 

[NeilBlanchard]

I guess I am confused, then. How does a 2011 have a lizard pack - full replacement I am guessing?

 

[TimLee]

I guess I am confused, then. How does a 2011 have a lizard pack - full replacement I am guessing?

Yes.
All 2011 purchased replacements have been the heat resistant chemistry.

Since late February 2015 when the supply of the 2013 / 2014 chemistry ran out all of the capacity warranty replacements have been heat resistant.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=14102&start=400#p413717

Just got mine replaced last week. It took ALL of the 4-6 week estimated delivery time for the battery to arrive (last day of week 6). The new battery was confirmed to be the new chemistry with the new harness (dealership told me that that is all they get now for battery swaps). Details of first 100% charge:
284 gids
94% SOC
394.5 V
100% SOH
99.6 Hx
78mOhms
...

The approximate 13,000 class action members under the mediated final settlement are required to be given complete pack replacement with latest technology.

Those not in the class with just capacity warranty it can be repair to more than nine capacity bars.
But so far Nissan has been doing complete replacements.

 

[dhanson865]

I guess I am confused, then. How does a 2011 have a lizard pack - full replacement I am guessing?

At least 50 cars have lost the 4 bars needed for a warranty replacement with a new pack. http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/?title=Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss#Loss_of_four_battery_capacity_bars_.2833.75.25.29 Nissan probably replaced much more than 50 packs since owners can get the pack replaced without reporting doing so to this forum and Nissan doesn't want to advertise how many packs have degraded that far.

After Mid 2014 all new packs were "lizard packs" not that that means much.

This thread was started by someone in Arizona that got a free pack replacement. He got his in Feb 2015 and thus it has seen one summers worth of Arizona heat. We'll have a much better idea how this will go at the end of next summer when his 2015 pack has seen more than a year of heat and two summers.

The jury might still be out but the murmuring is that 2013 and 2015 packs still are susceptible to heat degradation. Maybe each variation is better than the one before it but not by much. Likely the cost improvement for Nissan up front was more important than improving long term capacity stability/durability.

 

[TimLee]

...
After Mid 2014 all new packs were "lizard packs" not that that means much.

... Likely the cost improvement for Nissan up front was more important than improving long term capacity stability/durability.

Not sure there is much cost difference between 2011 and 2013 and 2015 packs.
It has been a slow advancement in the measurement and understanding of the large impacts on capacity degradation that very small chemistry changes can make.

They just were not ready in 2011.
Will be interesting to see if 2015 is adequate.
My guess is not.
Only the new 2016 kWh pack comes with a somewhat reasonable capacity warranty.

I would have more confidence in the lizard battery if Nissan had overall coulombic efficiency testing done of the 2011, 2013, and 2015 batteries by Professor Jeff Dahn (Dalhousie University) but I'm not sure they did that. See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=15796#p352669

Can you confirm when capacity warranty replacements became heat resistant.
The earliest I could confirm was late February 2015.
Some in late summer 2014 were not.

 

[tkdbrusco]

I guess I am confused, then. How does a 2011 have a lizard pack - full replacement I am guessing?

At least 50 cars have lost the 4 bars needed for a warranty replacement with a new pack. http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/?title=Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss#Loss_of_four_battery_capacity_bars_.2833.75.25.29 Nissan probably replaced much more than 50 packs since owners can get the pack replaced without reporting doing so to this forum and Nissan doesn't want to advertise how many packs have degraded that far.

After Mid 2014 all new packs were "lizard packs" not that that means much.

This thread was started by someone in Arizona that got a free pack replacement. He got his in Feb 2015 and thus it has seen one summers worth of Arizona heat. We'll have a much better idea how this will go at the end of next summer when his 2015 pack has seen more than a year of heat and two summers.

The jury might still be out but the murmuring is that 2013 and 2015 packs still are susceptible to heat degradation. Maybe each variation is better than the one before it but not by much. Likely the cost improvement for Nissan up front was more important than improving long term capacity stability/durability.

My 2015 S is at about 271 right now when charged to 100%. Its winter so its a little lower than usual, and I bought it in 8/14 and last winter it dropped too and then picked back up in the spring/summer. I have 20,500 mi on the car. My point is that YES, the lizards are degrading, but not at the rate that the 2011/12 packs were. I'm in the SF Bay Area in San Jose, so it gets fairly warm here. I think the made a good enough improvement on the Lizard to advertise it as something "improved" and be confident enough that they won't run into 60K capacity warranty issues, but that's about it.

 

[Evoforce]

12 bar (Lizard Pack) car and 8 bar (Original Pack) car have continued to degrade the same over the last several months of keeping stats.

They now have both degraded 8% SOH during the same calendar period.

The Lizard car has driven roughly 4,400 less miles.

This comparison will not be able to continue as the original pack car is now at 8 bars and will receive a new lizard battery at the end of December 2015

I am disappointed in the results that appear that the batteries aren't better.

Too bad this cannot be tracked any longer but I will be happy to receive a new battery.

Even though actual tracking was not able to be protracted over years, I am feeling pretty confident that it is a good representation of what to expect over the long haul.

In my opinion, the batteries are not better in the Arizona climate.

If I extrapolate my nearly a years worth of loss on my lizard battery and loose 3% more by the end of Dec 2015 for a total of 11% for the year, it will be down to 8 bars by March 2017.


Anyway, in roughly 2ish years (give or take a few months) it will need a new battery. That is less time frame that the first original battery was replaced. The cars in service date was 6/18/2011 and the battery was replaced in late December 2014 @ 3.5 years

 

[jmk]

Why do I get the feeling that Nissan has engineered this battery to degrade just right to keep the service business going...

 

[tkdbrusco]

Why do I get the feeling that Nissan has engineered this battery to degrade just right to keep the service business going...

I don't think it is that complicated, I think all that they did was make it just enough better to avoid replacing under these capacity warranties. My only hope is that in a few years they let us buy the 30kwh packs for the older cars. Although if my resale price drops to <$8K, its still worth it to buy a $5500 24kwh pack and drive the car for another 5 years.

 

[TomT]

I am not impressed with how my Lizard replacement battery is holding up after 7 months and 8,000 miles during the San Fernando Valley summer heat... (See my sig below for details...)

 

[Valdemar]

I am not impressed with how my Lizard replacement battery is holding up after 7 months and 8,000 miles during the San Fernando Valley summer heat... (See my sig below for details...)

I'd say it is too early to draw conclusions. It is possible the pack somehow had lower initial capacity and the observed loss is just due to the BMS finally learning the real value. However reports like this and past experience with Nissan claims doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

 

[TomT]

Except that it has been consistently trending downward...

I'd say it is too early to draw conclusions. It is possible the pack somehow had lower initial capacity and the observed loss is just due to the BMS finally learning the real value. However reports like this and past experience with Nissan claims doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

 

[EVforRobert]

Except that it has been consistently trending downward...

Mine has plateaued a bit possibly due to a chilly November. Thankfully, I am leasing!

 

[Valdemar]

Except that it has been consistently trending downward...

I'd say it is too early to draw conclusions. It is possible the pack somehow had lower initial capacity and the observed loss is just due to the BMS finally learning the real value. However reports like this and past experience with Nissan claims doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

It is interesting why TickTock's pack is doing much better. I wonder if there is an inherent problem with the newer pack design which gives a much wider spread with respect to resistance to heat. All 11/12 packs were more or less uniformly degrading at an accelerated rate, but starting with the new battery design in 2013 we see conflicting reports with some owners reporting almost no degradation over time and others reporting capacity loss similar to that of the original pack.

 

[DaveEV]

It is interesting why TickTock's pack is doing much better.

He is one of the very few who actually backs up LBC readings with energy from the wall to recharge from turtle to 100% and also does it often enough to allow one to filter out the noise.

Until others do the same, I am taking all lizard-pack LBC readings with a big grain of salt.

 

[TomT]

I double check it with range checks using a section of road that I have used for many years for that purpose and which has produced consistent results with both the old and new battery. I always check the tire pressures beforehand and try to do it at a similar battery temp and conditions, etc.. My latest two tests produced results that track the LBC readings...

It is interesting why TickTock's pack is doing much better.

He is one of the very few who actually backs up LBC readings with energy from the wall to recharge from turtle to 100% and also does it often enough to allow one to filter out the noise. Until others do the same, I am taking all lizard-pack LBC readings with a big grain of salt.

 

[Evoforce]

Lizard battery car now (11%) down on SOH and 2,700 less miles driven than 8 bar car.
8 bar car now down (8%) in the same calendar period with more miles driven.

So still just shy of a year, lizard battery car now has surpassed the SOH losses by an additional 3% over the 8 bar car with original battery.

This means the (lizard battery car) with less mileage this year than (8 bar car), is performing worse than the (8 bar car) with original battery during the same calendar period this year, and also slightly worse than the original battery that (was) in the (lizard car) up to Dec. 2014.

Lizard car------(first battery replaced at 22,300ish mi)

SOH 89% (Started tracking at 100%) (11% loss)
SOC 92.2%
AHr 53.39
Hx 84.59%
394V
odo 29,600 mi (7,300 miles on new lizard)
GIDs 249

In comparing that lizard cars first pack (original lasted 3.5 years) was probably changed out at around a SOH 63%, 11% loss the first year and 24% loss the second year for a total of 35% in 2 years would take it to 37% loss in under 2.3 years with this lizard pack.

********Conclusion!! Lizard battery is NOT better for Arizona climate!!*********

8 bar car---------------------------

SOH 63% (started tracking at 71%) (8% loss)
SOC 96.6%
AHr 41.72%
Hx 42.32
392.65V
odo 38,000 mi (10,000 miles since tracking)
GIDs 180


I will be posting one more reading at the exact one year mark for the lizard car. I will also post one more reading of 8 bar car at that time too

 

[tkdbrusco]

Those numbers are extremely low for a pack with only 7,300 on it. I can't believe that you are only getting 249 Gids from it! I was pissed about mine being down to 269 this morning, and my car has 22,000 miles on it.

Are you sure that they didn't screw up and put a non-lizard pack in your car?