Maximum Winter Time Range without recharging

[DaveinOlyWA]

best distance in Winter post. must be on single charge. temps below 40º.

post the following (if possible)

distance
miles/kw
temps
low battery odo
very low batt odo
how much you padded the drive (iow, how much circling did you do)

any other info you see fit to add.,

ok. i got 93.9 miles
5.3 miles/kw
temps ran 33-38º
Low Batt 81.6 miles GOM 10
VLB 91.6 miles GOM 4 to _ _ _

was essentially done with driving for the day at 85 miles so added another 8.9 in a 1.6 mile loop. (this brought my performance up from 5.0 to 5.3 miles/kw)

did not get to turtle mode and wanted to milk it to 100 miles but wouldnt make it and had cold feet. looked like i would only get 95-96 at the most. driving was done over two days. did 25.2 miles yesterday. all in town. most of it 35-40 mph with random elevation changes of 250 feet (made two trips to downtown which included one to west side thru downtown)

 

[TonyWilliams]

best distance in Winter post. must be on single charge.....

temps ran 33-38º

Is the car outside (not garaged)? In other words, was the battery temp below 40F ?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

You noticed I did not get my 21kw too?. No I am in garage but garage temps were 48° on thurs. Now idid do 25 miles of the distance on Weds and it say over night so wondering if that made a difference?

Was not expecting to lose that much capacity. I am bummed I did not make 100

 

[adric22]

I've not noticed any range decrease yet this winter. But I keep my car garaged and I even have a thermometer in the garage. On the coldest day so far (I think 26 degrees outside) it was still 55 in my garage. I preheated the car. Left with a full charge.

HOWEVER - i've noticed if I get tempted to turn that heater on or the defroster, the range estimate drops quite a bit. And I went out with the Wife a few nights ago when it was cold and naturally she wanted to run the heater so I was surprised how quickly the range dropped when using the heater.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

well i think that two things were detrimental to my performance

one; running it over 2 days.

two; the full charge was completed waaaay too early tues night (11:28 PM)

so, have to think about this, but will try again if possible but not sure i can cram 100 miles into one day without too much "padded driving" which i cant help but notice i did not add to my OP. will correct

 

[TonyWilliams]

You noticed I did not get my 21kw too?. No I am in garage but garage temps were 48° on thurs. Now idid do 25 miles of the distance on Weds and it say over night so wondering if that made a difference?

Was not expecting to lose that much capacity. I am bummed I did not make 100

Ya, that battery was "cold soaked" at whatever low temp that night in the garage (38-48 ?)

93.9 miles
5.3 miles/kw
temps ran 33-38º
Low Batt 81.6 miles
VLB 91.6 miles

Well, you did get 10 miles between LBW and VLB, so presumably you had about 5 miles left from VLB. You drove 2.3 miles past VLB, so you had about 2.5 - 3 miles left.

Best case, you had 93.9 + 3 = 96.9 miles at 5.3, for 18.28kWh in the battery for you to burn up total.

Let's say that battery was at 40F, or 30 degrees below 70F, so about 15% reduction at my rule of thumb (1% less battery capacity per 2F less than 70F).

18.28kWh is 87% of 21kWh.

Yep, it all seems to add up.

Now, if you start like me, in an almost heated garage (it was in the 30's this morning, yet my car was about 60F), it takes a LONG time to cool that battery down, particularly when you're using it. Only the heater kills my range then.

My 100 mile trip from Long Beach was running 5.3 miles/kWh until I ran the heater, when it dropped to 5.1 at the end (even with several miles of coasting at the end). My battery was a bit warmer than your's, with 100 / 5.1 = 19.60kWh in my battery. That's about 93% battery capacity (of 21kWh), which is in the ballpark of my original estimate before I left of a 10% reduction (vice 7%). My temps were around 50 degrees F, so my rule of thumb was 10%.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

The reason why I stopped before turtle mode was because ifigured I would get no more than exactly what you figured of 96 miles and since it was not 100 miles I lost my motivation plus I had cold feet. During the drive I only ran defrost a few times for less than a minute each time

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

distance: 73 miles, mostly highway (50-70 mph), 1.5 hours drive time, a few slow downs due to traffic.
miles/kw: 4.5
temps: 39 F
2 bars/14 miles remaining on geusometer
car was kept in uninsulated garage the night before, in the 30's.

preheated for 45 minutes, turned CC off for the drive, kept mode to foot/defog... stayed quite warm for about 45 minutes.

it's looking to me like climate control is the number one culprit for the winter range loss some are experiencing.

 

[TonyWilliams]

it's looking to me like climate control is the number one culprit for the winter range loss some are experiencing.

You do recognize that several of us, myself included, have ran our cars without the heater at all (see above) ?

That eliminates it from the equation. Now, how do you explain the loss of range in cold weather?

But, of course, that heater is KILLER of range.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Wow George!! your "full" charge had a lot more to give than mine!

sounds like you could have done in the high 80's at least if you parked it with 14 miles. i did no freeway, less than 5 minutes of defrost for the entire two days.

i think i need to redo and drive it in one day. that will be a logistical challenge. i will probably have to pad a good 30-40 miles of "drive around" to make it.

another point to make; last year before move our garage never got colder than the mid 50's. it had the master bedroom over it so the only real leak was the garage door. it helped since it faced the afternoon setting sun which would help warm it up as well. this year we are in single story home and pretty sure garage has no insulation at all. just checked and car states 39º (OAT is 28) so much colder.

last year we could do fairly inefficient drives and get 70 miles easily. i am beginning to think that same trip might be a struggle this year. might have to try it tomorrow.

 

[Fabio]

I used to charge the car at 80% for my daily commute (50m), but now I daily charge to 100%
I pre-heat the car in the garage and use the heater in the car (on and off)
Even in the days I've not used the heater, I've noticed a drop in range, but I don't have precise figures. It seem that my LEAF is sensitive to the drop in temperature as I am

 

[DrInnovation]

it's looking to me like climate control is the number one culprit for the winter range loss some are experiencing.

You do recognize that several of us, myself included, have ran our cars without the heater at all (see above) ?

That eliminates it from the equation. Now, how do you explain the loss of range in cold weather?

But, of course, that heater is KILLER of range.

Battery chemistry is less effective at cold temps. Lowering the temperature causes chemical reactions to proceed more slowly, so if a battery is used at a low temperature then less current is produced than at a higher temperature. This impacts both max current draw (i.e. power) and causes them to drain faster to provide the same power. Preheating batteries helps because improves the battery's ability to provide current. Because the impact is based on current, it has a more dramatic effect if you use more current quickly (e.g. highway speeds) than if you drive slower and use lower current levels.

 

[harryjpowell]

Thought I'd throw our days run out there. Temp low was 41-44 at the start high of the day was I think about 50-55.
Started from garaged, attached, with 100% charge said 84 GOM
Numerous trips around shopping, mix 30/70 of highway at 55-65 and off highway 40-45 mph

Overall to turtle was 86.5 miles

Drove without care in ECO, no hyper miler here, until 9 miles on GOM then really started watching.

Got the blinking warning with 8 on GOM at 70.0 miles
Drove mix 25-45mph from blinking 8 to --- which happened at 79.5 so went 9.5 miles on low bat..
Drove neighborhood looping 15-30 mph stop and go for another 7 miles to turtle.

No climate control on for the day but fan on two. To people in car and two golf bags in the trunk. Pre-heated before leaving but we like it cool anyway.

My first time to turtle and end of the first week in the Leaf! Not 100 but I was pleasantly surprised how much was left in the tank from the first low batt!

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

it's looking to me like climate control is the number one culprit for the winter range loss some are experiencing.

You do recognize that several of us, myself included, have ran our cars without the heater at all (see above) ?

That eliminates it from the equation. Now, how do you explain the loss of range in cold weather?

But, of course, that heater is KILLER of range.

To be clear, I'm not just talking heater, I'm talking climate control (AC(heat/cold, dehumidifying/defrost and circulating fan). unless you are literally turning climate control off with the on/off button and not hitting the fan switch or any of the other buttons that automatically turn it back on, you may be eating range without realizing it. using power defrost compresses, condenses the moisture and cools the air and then the air needs to be heated, when temp in the cabin goes below 60 the heater automatically turns on unless CC is turned off... that all ads up to a lot of range from what I've seen. if you are in a climate that causes the inside temp to go below 60 then the heater automatically comes on even if it's turned down all the way. I don't know what to tell you if you are doing all these things, somehow maybe we are just having different experiences.

Doing the above I'm seeing 80-85 miles of range, which is pretty close to what I was seeing in the summer.

 

[evnow]

Battery chemistry is less effective at cold temps. Lowering the temperature causes chemical reactions to proceed more slowly, so if a battery is used at a low temperature then less current is produced than at a higher temperature. This impacts both max current draw (i.e. power) and causes them to drain faster to provide the same power. Preheating batteries helps because improves the battery's ability to provide current. Because the impact is based on current, it has a more dramatic effect if you use more current quickly (e.g. highway speeds) than if you drive slower and use lower current levels.

I've read this a number of times. But it doesn't explain what eactually is happening to the energy. Is the battery getting less efficient and eating more energy (i.e. increased internal resistance) ?

Essentially once X kwh is put into the battery, when the battery level reaches "0" - we need to account for those X kWh. If higher internal resistance is eating the energy, that should warm up the battery !

 

[evnow]

To be clear, I'm not just talking heater, I'm talking climate control (AC(heat/cold, dehumidifying/defrost and circulating fan). unless you are literally turning climate control off with the on/off button and not hitting the fan switch or any of the other buttons that automatically turn it back on, you may be eating range without realizing it.

Yes - no climate control (I even watch the energy screen to make sure). I've a thread somewhere about it. Because of my short commute many days - I can drive without any climate control. For defrost I use the foot+defrost mode without any fan - and that is adequate without using any energy.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

I agree, and understand the effect of temp on chemistry, I'm just saying that in the upper thirties during the day and lower thirties at night, I am not seeing significant decline in range compared to the loss with climate control on (deforst/cool/heat). Even if I turn the heater all the way down to 60, toggle defrost and so forth, I still see a pretty big drop with CC on. If my experience can not be repeated by others, then I'd like to know it, but after pulling my hair out for a month trying to control climate control, I finally gave up and went with the foot/defog/CC off approach that EVnow put forth... also, I charge to 80% overnight and top off mostly with preheating in the morning, so the mass of the car is getting pretty warm, not just the air. If I have to go a long distance and really need a 100% charge and a good warming, I will allow the car to charge the last 2 bars on preheat, taking about an hour or so if I recall correctly. of course preheating after 100% charge is already complete limits the preheat to about a half an hour and does not get the car warm enough for a long drive with CC off without the cabin getting uncomfortably cold.

I believe drying the air with auto/defrost cools it and compounds heater use... that's the only explanation for this monstrous use of charge by CC... I'm not expert, just stating observations.

it's looking to me like climate control is the number one culprit for the winter range loss some are experiencing.

You do recognize that several of us, myself included, have ran our cars without the heater at all (see above) ?

That eliminates it from the equation. Now, how do you explain the loss of range in cold weather?

But, of course, that heater is KILLER of range.

Battery chemistry is less effective at cold temps. Lowering the temperature causes chemical reactions to proceed more slowly, so if a battery is used at a low temperature then less current is produced than at a higher temperature. This impacts both max current draw (i.e. power) and causes them to drain faster to provide the same power. Preheating batteries helps because improves the battery's ability to provide current. Because the impact is based on current, it has a more dramatic effect if you use more current quickly (e.g. highway speeds) than if you drive slower and use lower current levels.

 

[TonyWilliams]

it's looking to me like climate control is the number one culprit for the winter range loss some are experiencing.

You do recognize that several of us, myself included, have ran our cars without the heater at all (see above) ?

That eliminates it from the equation. Now, how do you explain the loss of range in cold weather?

But, of course, that heater is KILLER of range.

To be clear, I'm not just talking heater, I'm talking climate control (AC(heat/cold, dehumidifying/defrost and circulating fan). unless you are literally turning climate control off with the on/off button and not hitting the fan switch or any of the other buttons that automatically turn it back on, you may be eating range without realizing it.

Ya, I wasn't completely clear. No Climate Control whatsoever, verified with a quick look at the power consumption page.

Actually, that fan pulls nothing from the climate control screen, since the power is coming from the 12v battery, and the 12v battery is topped off from the DC-DC converter, which is where it would measure the consumption as "other"... not traction motor or climate control consumption.

You're probably the only person that I can think of who has discounted the battery lossing performance in the cold. Read up a few posts, where we can "measure" the battery capacity with epirical data without climate control. Again, no climate control.

It's just a fact. The battery losses performance the colder it gets. We can debate how much that loss is, but it is a loss nonetheless. My rule of thumb is 1% loss per 2F below 70F.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Overall to turtle was 86.5 miles

Good info, but we need your dash Miles/kWh data. Should have been something like 4.0, or higher.

Congrats on your new car!

Tony

 

[dday]

friday 9th started out by preheating the car. Temp over night 18F Drove into town 26 miles 20miles @ 62mph. 6 miles at 35mph and below Heat on set at 72F floor/defrost. Stopped for breakfast about 30 minutes. Came out jumped in car started driving still in town. Heat on same as before. Stopped at store about 25 minutes got back in car drove to another store. about 45 minutes got back in car headed for home, heat set at 80F I was getting cold and so was the car. Drove home 20 miles @ 62 mph heat set to 80F Got home with about 55 miles on the car. Got LBW @ 6 on GOM. Got home with 3 on GOM 1 bar left on battery meter. last 3 miles to home were 45 mph or less back road. Miles per Kilowatt 3.2

the car sits outside under carport all the time so no nice heated garage for the battery. But I have never seen the battery temp below 4 bars I always charge to 100%. So this is a drop of about 30 miles from what I saw all summer long. I could easily do 85 miles per charge in the summer.