Newbie here from Canada: looking at getting my first and only vehicle, will a used leaf work for me?

[Anonymous]

Hi everyone,

I was 99% sure I was going to gets new 2016 Prius base upgrade package but now that I've seen a consumer report article on buying a used Nissan Leaf I'm debating if I should just get it instead.

I live with my parents and plan on staying 3-6 years till I pay off my debt and can buy my own house. I'm hoping to live a simple, debt free and low emission life. I work 20km round trip away from my house. On average I people drive 50-60km in city when I'm going shopping with my mom and sister. I want a car that is cheap to run and that will last me 5-10 years. I've seen one leaf on Autotrader.ca for $17,000 with 40,000km on it it's a 2012 SL. There is also a 2013 SL for $23,000 50,000km and a 2013 S for $16,000 35,000km. I'm hoping I could get a leaf for $15,000 to $18,000 cash. This would save me $13,000 compared to the 2016 Prius.

I do on long trips every once in a while which is 180-250km one way. I could take my moms car for drives like this if need be. There are charging stations level 2's along the way (40-80km drive before getting to a charging station) with one level 3 in Truro, Nova Scotia. In the winter I probably wouldn't risk going on a long trip in the leaf. It can get down to -30 in New Brunswick with the windshield.

I'm wondering if I would have to park the leaf inside? I don't have a garage available so that would be a dealbraker.

do I have to install a level 2 charging station? I have a wall outlet outside that is easily assessable that I could just keep the car plugged into as much as possible during the winter to keep the battery warm.

Do you think the battery will last another 5 years if I get a 2012 or 2013? If the battery costs $6000 to get a new one I would still be saving money if I needed to replace it in 5 years due to the savings when I buy it and little to no maintains costs.

I know little to nothing about this car and the features so anything will help! But please be honest and let me know if I'm getting into something you think won't work for me.

 

[jjeff]

Welcome Ca,
Your 20km RT should be no problem even in the winter running the heat, especially if you preheat at home. I'd really suggest a L2 EVSE though, preheating and even charging on 120v is really slow and doesn't put out much heat when the weather gets well below zero C.
You can either purchase a decent L2 EVSE for not too much over $400(US) or have your factory EVSE upgraded at EVSEupgrade for ~$300(US). If your looking at a '12 it will have a maximum charge rate of ~13a at either 120v or 240v. A '13 or newer S may have a upgraded charger capable of going up to 27.5a 240v or all upper trim levels '13 or newer will have the upgraded charger. You can purchase a EVSE larger or smaller than what your cars charger is, the car or EVSE will determine the maximum charge rate, with the lower rating being the one that determines charge rate.
Note if you don't have a 240v outlet it's also possible to use (2) 120v outlets that are on different phases to make 240v. Not sure if thats an option but it's a possibility. If interested I can explain how to tell if 2 outlets are on different phases, if you have a volt meter. Note if doing this your outlets should really be dedicated and 20a, if only 15a your EVSE will need a way to limit the current, the EVSEupgrade has this feature.

 

[RonDawg]

Normally I would not recommend most battery-only electrics as one's solo vehicle unless you have ready access to a second conventional or hybrid car, but that doesn't seem to be a problem in your case.

For trips up to 20 km/day, your Leaf will be usable for a long, long time, even one with a significantly degraded battery. 60 km/day may become problematic after a while during the winter, as range will decline significantly in winter for a number of reasons, unless there is an L2 in town (you mentioned a 40-80 km drive to the nearest one), or you can leave the car plugged into an L1 outlet for several hours.

Parking the Leaf indoors is helpful, but not required. With a 20 km/day requirement, you can survive on L1 but expect to keep your car plugged in for many hours every day in the summer, and just about all of the time in winter. Installing an L2 increases the flexibility of usage and also will help with pre-heating the cabin and thus preserving your range; at the temps you mentioned, L1 won't provide enough pre-heating.

In the relatively cool environment of Atlantic Canada, your battery will retain its remaining capacity for quite a long time.

 

[LeftieBiker]

With a 20 km/day requirement, you can survive on L1 but expect to keep your car plugged in for many hours every day in the summer, and just about all of the time in winter. Installing an L2 increases the flexibility of usage and also will help with pre-heating the cabin and thus preserving your range; at the temps you mentioned, L1 won't provide enough pre-heating.

The above is a bit of an exaggeration. I have used L-1 charging only at home for 2 1/2+ years, with few issues. That included a 43 mile round trip commute for the first year. With your commute you'd need to charge overnight every night, but not all the time - not even in Winter. L-1 can also work fine with preheating, as long as you are prepared to lose about 2% charge for a 5 minute preheat, or 5% for 15 minutes. I strongly suggest a 2013 or newer Leaf, both for a slightly better battery pack and for more and better features. First among those is the heat pump heating system, which comes with the 2013+ SV and SL models (but NOT the S). You need to make sure, though, that your available outlet is on a 15 amp circuit with nothing more than a light bulb on it now, as you need 12 amps to charge, and about 15 amps free for safety during continuous use. The wiring and outlet also have to be in excellent shape.

 

[Anonymous]

Thank you so much for all the replies!

This is great news! Now to ask the parents about the L1 outlet and the installation of a L2 charger. I will be charging outside like I've said before. I do have one L2 charger in Moncton New Brunswick which is 10-15 km away from my house and a few more randomly in the Moncton area. I stated that the nearest charging station was around 40km for the trip I take to go to Truro once a month. If I could once I'm out on my own I would keep this car as my only car and just borrow my moms vehicle when going on road trips. I don't think she would mind not spending any money on gas lol

I really don't understand any of the power voltage terms so I didn't quite understand jjeff response.

I'm going to test drive the Nissan Leaf tomorrow (if they still have it) that's at my local dealer to get a feel of the car. Not sure what year they have there. I'll see if they can get me a 2013 or 2014 SL or SV with less then 40,000km on it for $18,000 or less. I wonder if they Nissan dealership would give me a deal of a 2014 or 2015 new for less then $26,000 with little KM on it.... I've never seen a Nissan Leaf on the road except maybe once in Nova Scotia.

Do you think going through the dealership for them to find me a Nissan Leaf would be a good decision? Do you think a dealership would be willing to negotiate a price less then $26,000 on the car?

 

[jjeff]

I really don't understand any of the power voltage terms so I didn't quite understand jjeff response.

Sorry, my main gist was just that if you(or knew someone who was) electrical savvy you might be able to get 240v(L2) using (2) 120v standard outlets. There are a few caveats with this and your circuits really should be mostly unused, or not have any other major draws as a EV basically uses up all the power in a standard 120v outlet. It would also be best if your outlets were on a 20a breaker or fuse, not the lighter 15a. If using a L2 EVSE it's best to have the proper 240v outlet or hardwire it but again I was just pointing out sometimes in a pinch you can get by without one.

I'm going to test drive the Nissan Leaf tomorrow (if they still have it) that's at my local dealer to get a feel of the car. Not sure what year they have there. I'll see if they can get me a 2013 or 2014 SL or SV with less then 40,000km on it for $18,000 or less. I wonder if they Nissan dealership would give me a deal of a 2014 or 2015 new for less then $26,000 with little KM on it.... I've never seen a Nissan Leaf on the road except maybe once in Nova Scotia.

Do you think going through the dealership for them to find me a Nissan Leaf would be a good decision? Do you think a dealership would be willing to negotiate a price less then $26,000 on the car?

It wouldn't hurt to try and negotiate, I purchased my used '12SL at a Nissan dealer but felt the asking price($7485 USD for 26k miles) was fair enough so I didn't try and get it for less. Sounds like Leaf's sell for a fair amount more in your neck of the woods, it would be interesting to see where your Leaf's were coming from. Mine came from the LA area of CA and was a lease return purchased from an auto auction by the dealer.
When looking for a used Leaf it's best to have a OBDII adapter(<$20 from Amazon or Ebay) and LeafSpy(trial or paid version, free or $15) which is installed on your mobile phone. It tells you the condition of the battery, very important for a used Leaf several years old.

 

[RonDawg]

With a 20 km/day requirement, you can survive on L1 but expect to keep your car plugged in for many hours every day in the summer, and just about all of the time in winter. Installing an L2 increases the flexibility of usage and also will help with pre-heating the cabin and thus preserving your range; at the temps you mentioned, L1 won't provide enough pre-heating.

The above is a bit of an exaggeration. I have used L-1 charging only at home for 2 1/2+ years, with few issues. That included a 43 mile round trip commute for the first year. With your commute you'd need to charge overnight every night, but not all the time - not even in Winter. L-1 can also work fine with preheating, as long as you are prepared to lose about 2% charge for a 5 minute preheat, or 5% for 15 minutes.

Not knowing which Leaf the OP is going to get, I'm giving her somewhat of a worst-case scenario. Having never had one before, the OP may not be prepared for some of the other sacrifices necessary to preserve range, like driving with the heat setting much much lower than most are accustomed to.

I'm familiar with charging on L1 as that's what I did for the first 9 months I had my Leaf, and 20 km (12.5 miles for the metrically-challenged) is my own round trip commuting distance.

You also got your Leaf new; she's looking at used, and if she's going to get a 2012 or especially a 2011 she could be looking at a car with 2 or even 3 bars lost, depending on mileage and where it originally resided.

 

[LeftieBiker]

You also got your Leaf new; she's looking at used, and if she's going to get a 2012 or especially a 2011 she could be looking at a car with 2 or even 3 bars lost, depending on mileage and where it originally resided.

I'm assuming 11 actual bars and a 2013+ Leaf SV or SL. With my present 11 1/3 bars, I could do 40KM daily with all the heat I wanted, down to single digits Fahrenheit. I agree that we need to make the OP understand that an older Leaf, especially one with more than one bar gone, is not a good idea for the long term. She seems to have gotten that much clear already, but:

Ashley: You want a 2013 or newer SV or SL (not an S in your climate) with 12 capacity bars showing on the dash. The capacity bars are the little white ones right alongside the much larger "fuel" bars. The car could be showing 12 and still have only 11 1/10th actual "bars" worth of capacity, because that gauge is designed to hide the first 15% of capacity loss, only dropping to 11 at about 85% of original capacity. Subsequent bars are lost sooner. The Leaf Spy app, with an appropriate OBII error code reader attached to the car, can show you exactly how much capacity a car has. That's best, but if you don't want to buy one and learn how to use it quickly, look for '12 bar cars' only, and make sure the dealer understands that if an auctioneer or wholesaler has reset the car's battery computer to make it read 12 bars when it has actually some lost, you will return the car as soon as that becomes clear in a week or two. That nasty practice is still rare, but unfortunately not extremely rare.

You also want a car that came from Canada or the Northern US, NOT from anyplace with a hot climate, like Arizona or California. Frequent hot weather degrades the battery pack faster. The odometer mileage is less important than the pack capacity and the car's original climate profile.

 

[ElectricEddy]

Thank you so much for all the replies!

This is great news! Now to ask the parents about the L1 outlet and the installation of a L2 charger. I will be charging outside like I've said before. I do have one L2 charger in Moncton New Brunswick which is 10-15 km away from my house and a few more randomly in the Moncton area. I stated that the nearest charging station was around 40km for the trip I take to go to Truro once a month. If I could once I'm out on my own I would keep this car as my only car and just borrow my moms vehicle when going on road trips. I don't think she would mind not spending any money on gas lol

I really don't understand any of the power voltage terms so I didn't quite understand jjeff response.

I'm going to test drive the Nissan Leaf tomorrow (if they still have it) that's at my local dealer to get a feel of the car. Not sure what year they have there. I'll see if they can get me a 2013 or 2014 SL or SV with less then 40,000km on it for $18,000 or less. I wonder if they Nissan dealership would give me a deal of a 2014 or 2015 new for less then $26,000 with little KM on it.... I've never seen a Nissan Leaf on the road except maybe once in Nova Scotia.

Do you think going through the dealership for them to find me a Nissan Leaf would be a good decision? Do you think a dealership would be willing to negotiate a price less then $26,000 on the car?

Make sure the dealership has at least 1 trained and experienced EV tech on staff and if so talk to another EV owner who has been there for service. I would also highly recommend purchasing leaf spy and a dongle to check out the pack stats on any Leaf purchase, new or used.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Make sure the dealership has at least 1 trained and experienced EV tech on staff and if so talk to another EV owner who has been there for service. I would also highly recommend purchasing Leaf Spy and a dongle to check out the pack stats on any Leaf purchase, new or used.

Yes, in the US they are called "Leaf-Certified" Techs, and you need to have one available. The Leaf Spy app is also useful for making use of all the car's available range, as it will let you drive to near the "bottom" of capacity without an unexpected shutdown. Again, though, if you can't use it to buy a car, just assume that all cars showing 12 capacity bars have 11 actual bars, and all showing 11 have 10 actual bars. I suggest you avoid any Leaf showing 11 or fewer bars - not because it wouldn't work for you now, but because it might not work for you in a few years. The app is most useful for finding new and used Leafs that have lost much less than one bar, so if 11 "full" bars will do, it can be considered optional.

 

[Anonymous]

So all in all do y'all think it's a good idea to buy used if I can get a 12 capacity battery for around $18,000?

How long will the battery last (years) if I get a leaf with 12 battery capacity?
Do you think in 5 years, if it lasts that long (hoping it will :/) the price of a replacement battery would be reduced from $6,000?


I told my stepdad and he thinks the technology is too new and called me stupid lol. He also is trying to get me to buy a 2016 Honda Civic EX-T which is around $30,000 all inclusive. I'll have to try to convince him if I get a Nissan Leaf.

A little worried about range anxiety. Do any of you guys have it when going on a trip? (180-250km) I think the first thing I would do with the leaf would be to try out a long distance trip (see how long it takes me to get there, how many times I have to stop and how long it will take for me to fill up at each stop)

 

[LeftieBiker]

You won't be taking any 200-250k trips unless you have a Leaf with the QC option, and reliable access to Quick Charge stations. Given that you can afford a new car, here is what might work better for you: you could *lease* (not buy) a 2016 Leaf SV or SL. These cars have a true 107 mile / 172km range, at least in warm weather. Lease prices are too high now because of low residual values being assigned, but that same low residual means you could buy the car for $12k USD when the lease ends. That way you aren't committed to owning a car that you might outgrow. You could also buy one, and the incentives are a little better for that, but be aware that Leafs depreciate horribly when bought new. In 2017 the New 200 (ish) mile range Leaf is due out.

 

[Evoforce]

Ashley, my advice is to not try and over think this and become frozen in what to do because it all seems so technical. I think a Leaf will be great for you. Everyone here is well meaning and giving great advice, and it may seem very technical and tough to understand. A lot of us have had time to digest and learn about our cars after purchasing them and continue to learn.

If you want to save some good money, buy the oldest Leaf as possible, with 12 (CAPACITY) bars and Quick Charge. The prices you mentioned seem high but I don't know the Canadian market.

As mentioned by others, 2013's and newer have more efficient heaters. And the 2016 SV and SL have a larger capacity battery with more range.

I am not completely convinced that any years batteries are any better than the next, other than the 2016's being larger capacity/range. If you can wait to buy a 2016 Leaf until this winter (or after the Bolt and 2017 Leaf hits the market) you will get a better deal on a 2016 Leaf SV/SL for 100 mile range.

If you can afford the new "completely electric" Chevy (BOLT) not to be confused with the (VOLT HYBRID) is supposed to be for sale late 2016 at a 200 mile range.

I own two 2011 leafs and they are quicker from a stop to go, than 13+ Leafs. I live in a hot climate so cabin heating in the winter is not as important to me as it would be for you, and that is the ONLY reason I recommend the 13+ cars. There are some other (to me) minor incidentals that are not that important between the years other than the 16's having greater range.

Personally, I would not lease a Leaf, especially since your region doesn't suffer battery degradation like hot climates. A lease would lock you in for a few years and there are some 200+ pure EV's on the very near horizon. I also believe a pure electric is great for you, especially if your Mom will let you drive her car for very long trips. As far as hybrids, the secondary gas engine of a Hybrid could mean more maintenance in the future, also in my area 2012 and older hybrids have to pass emission standards and go through inspections. In my opinion, buying a hybrid is not going to be necessary in the very near future for most people, with pure electrics increasing to 200+ miles.

The Leaf is a very nice car in any year you purchase. There are some minor differences but as far as having a good reliable car the Leaf generally has few issues. If I my batteries could live in your climate... I would have no complaints. Good luck, and enjoy what I expect will be (your) new Leaf!

 

[RonDawg]

Ashley, also don't rule out a plug-in hybrid (PHEV). I don't know what prices are like in Canada, but a used Chevy Volt can be had for reasonable money here in the US. It will allow you to drive your 20 km round trip commute easily on electric power alone, but allows you to take trips across Canada and the US if you so desire.

Not sure what other PHEVs are available in Canada, but other models include the Ford Fusion Energi, Ford C-Max Energi, and the Toyota Prius Plug-in (often called a "PiP").

 

[LeftieBiker]

I agree with Ron, in that if you really want the option to take long trips in your only car, you want a Volt. A used Prius PHEV would also work, although you trade higher hybrid mode fuel economy for a much smaller EV mode range - about 12-15 miles. The 2016 Prius PHEV will have a 25 mile EV mode range, and that too is worth considering. In fact, if you will mainly drive less than 20 miles, with occasional 150 mile trips, that might be your best option, if having cabin heat in EV mode isn't a big concern. ;-).

As for not leasing, I never had any interest in doing it either, before we leased a 2010 Prius II. It turns out, though, that a good lease deal will let you "rent" a car for several years, and then either buy it for little more than an up-front purchase would cost, or turn it in if it isn't really right for you. You would lose money if you leased a 2016 Leaf and then turned it in, but if you liked it you'd be able to lease and then buy it with less risk than buying it upfront. The issue I have with buying a pre-'13 leaf, aside from the lack of a heatpump, is that the battery pack might not be usable for as long as you'd like, especially if your Summers get hotter.

 

[Levenkay]

How long will the battery last (years) if I get a leaf with 12 battery capacity?
Do you think in 5 years, if it lasts that long (hoping it will :/) the price of a replacement battery would be reduced from $6,000?

As others have said, longevity depends on how much time the battery spends exposed to temperature and high states of charge. I owned an original 2011 LEAF for three years here in Portland, OR, and passed it on to my sister's SO with all 12 bars at somewhere around 20Kmiles. He drove it at least another year without dropping a bar, although I haven't heard from him lately.

I told my stepdad and he thinks the technology is too new and called me stupid lol. He also is trying to get me to buy a 2016 Honda Civic EX-T which is around $30,000 all inclusive. I'll have to try to convince him if I get a Nissan Leaf.

A couple rides should do it.

A little worried about range anxiety. Do any of you guys have it when going on a trip? (180-250km) I think the first thing I would do with the leaf would be to try out a long distance trip (see how long it takes me to get there, how many times I have to stop and how long it will take for me to fill up at each stop)

I've made about a dozen trips of about 300km one way over the last five years. Before buying the 2011 LEAF, and just reading about its (then) claimed 100 mile range, I kind of expected to need only one charging stop to make the ~180 mile one-way trip between Portland and Seattle. That was pretty naive, I discovered. For one thing, the 100 mile range claim couldn't be realized at anywhere close to a practical highway speed, and also assumed more level terrain than the route I needed to drive. Also, the fast charge stations (which, as others have said, you need to have in order to make even the distances you're talking about remotely practical) greatly slow down their energy delivery as the battery approaches a "full" condition. If you insist on charging to 100% at a DC Quick Charger (DCQC), it takes about as long to put the last 20% of charge in as it does for the first 80%. And then (for me) there was the issue of wanting to have *some* range in reserve when arriving, in case the station is broken and I had to limp off somewhere else. The very nice "West Coast Electric Highway" has fast-charge stations placed about every 40 or 50 miles (some closer than that), and my practice was to hit all of them. My pattern is to drive for about 45-55 minutes at somewhere around 50-65MPH (80-100KPH), arriving at about a 10 to 25% state of charge, which a DCQC station can bring up to around 80% in 20 to 30 minutes. I would stop five times during a 290km trip between Portland and Seattle, although with a bit more boldness, I could have skipped a couple stops. But I was expecting to have to spend that safety margin on nursing a degrading pack, so I figured I should get used to that pace.

 

[Anonymous]

There is 2 level 2 chargers and only one level 3 charging station at my destination (Truro nova Scotia) all around my area there are only level 2 chargers. If I only drive 40km how long would it take me get to full capacity again?

I would like to be able to drive to Truro in the car but if not it won't be a big deal!

 

[minispeed]

I agree with a couple of the people above and think you should be looking at a used plug in hybrid like the Chev Volt instead. The used car prices are about the same (at least here in Ontario) for a leaf and a volt. For your current situation the volt will work perfectly as an electric only car for all your driving. For the times you would borrow another car to drive further you'll start off in the volt with 60km or so electric and finish it off on gas. Unless that other car is a Prius you will probably be burning less gas on that long 200km+ trip in the volt than you would if you borrow another car. The one issue the volt has when it's very cold the engine will go through a warm up even when you are in EV mode, I think it's at around -15C that it does this.

You're young, plans change. There's no telling if suddenly you get a job offer, or a transfer or anything comes up and you have to change. The first 10 years out of school will have a lot of changes. You talked about getting a house, with the leaf if you want to keep that car you'll be forced to buy a house within range of work.

If there are no changes the volt will run your 20km round trip on electricity alone until the battery looses 2/3rds of it's capacity. That will probably never ever happen. The cost of a replacement battery in the volt is pretty much pretty much a non issue.

Another issue, the Volt has pretty low resale values in Quebec, since it can drive on gas you can get one cheaper there if you're willing to go get it.

The Ford plug in hybrids will do just over 20km on electricity and they aren't as cheap used since there are a lot less of them.

 

[Anonymous]

The volt wouldn't work with kids and cargo space!

I went to my Nissan dealership and tested the 2016 which is way too expensive!! I asked them about buying used and they said "if we get one in I'll give you a call" they have no interest in searching for one which the volt dealer was interested in doing for me. They also pretty much gave me no hope to owning one because they said the prices in Vancouver, BC, Toronot, Quebec have intentions so all the prices that I've been seeing they say probably have thoses applied to it so I wouldn't be able to get one for such a price $16-$27 (2012-2015) 5,000km to 50,000km

I'm still going to keep looking for one! I want a leaf and I would love a Bolt but they will be extremely expensive so I couldn't get one

Crossing my fingers I can find a good leaf for cheap in the next three months.

 

[LeftieBiker]

If I only drive 40km how long would it take me get to full capacity again?

The 6.6kw charger found in the '13+ SV and SL (and S with Charge Package) will add about 1% charge every two minutes with most commercial L-2 stations and with 30 amp home L-2 stations. Lower amperage home stations take longer. How much charge you use on a 40km trip will depend on a number of factors, so that's harder to answer.