Nissan Leaf vs. Ford Focus Electric Cold weather test result

[klusters]

Hello

Just a quick update on the direct comparison of range of two cars in our family. I have a '12 Leaf and my wife a '12 FFE. I was able to drive my wifes car for the better part of January. I would drive both cars to work, which is a 40 mile round trip commute, non highway, with minimal amounts of hills. Stay around 30-40mph Tires fully inflated, heat the seats, but no blower motor ventilation used.

Keep in mind we are in NJ and the weather was at or below freezing in January. The Leaf can safely handle 1.5 roundtrips of my commute or about 60 miles before I reach one bar. I expected the FFE to get the same result.

Not even close. The FFE can handle 2.5 roundtrips before reaching a low battery warning. In fact when I hit 100 miles on a single charge the conditions were freezing rain with the temps in the low 20's.

I expect the two to have similar range once the weather becomes more mild. But so far very impressed with FFE's the cold weather results

 

[camasleaf]

Are the cars parked outside or in a garage?

 

[redLEAF]

Are the cars parked outside or in a garage?

Good question as well as any pre-heating, either in the garage or outside for the return trip home, etc.; assume that you used ECO mode on the LEAF, etc. ... lot's of variables unless of course same exact conditions with LEAF vs. FFE, etc. that's why some of these comparisons unless done in control conditions are tough. That much of a difference is still quite dramatic none the less. Also, what's the miles per kWh for each showing? The lower the number the more juice is used as well as range reduced.

 

[planet4ever]

Does anybody know what percentage of battery capacity is left in the FFE at low battery warning? Tony's table shows 26% remaining when it drops to one bar, so this many not have been a very valid comparison.

Ray

 

[evnow]

Range of Leaf is basically until you hit turtle. There is quite a bit of range hiding there between LB and Turtle.

Still, looks like FFE does have more range in cold weather.

 

[reeler]

Still, looks like FFE does have more range in cold weather.

I wonder if the extra range is due to the TMS in the FFE?

With comparable battery sizes, I never understood why the FFE (being a retrofit solution) would have better range than the Leaf (ground-up EV design). Makes no sense to me, but maybe I am missing something.

 

[evnow]

Still, looks like FFE does have more range in cold weather.

I wonder if the extra range is due to the TMS in the FFE?

Yes, in theory that is what is expected. But didn't look like that was true in practice for Volt.

With comparable battery sizes, I never understood why the FFE (being a retrofit solution) would have better range than the Leaf (ground-up EV design). Makes no sense to me, but maybe I am missing something.

I think the difference was purely because of 5 cycle test vs 2 cycle.

 

[occ]

Perhaps what might be more telling is the numbers of hours of charge for your LEAF that went 1.5 trip (60 miles) vs the FFE 2.5 trip (100 miles) to charge to 100%. There's a big unknown between the LEAF's "1 bar left" and the FFE "low battery warning".

Still, that 100 miles in the FFE in cold seems impressive.

 

[Volusiano]

I wonder if TMS on the Focus helped keep the battery warmer, hence better range. If the Focus battery is well insulated, the warm battery thanks to TMS whiled plugged in at the garage before leaving to work can keep the Focus battery warm for a long time (especially with good insulation and a big mass), which may help with the range.

I wonder with the LEAF battery being designed to have more surface area spread out at the bottom for natural cooling also causes it to be exposed to the cold sooner. Meanwhile, the lump of the Focus battery is in the back of the trunk, all lumped up with a smaller surface area, well insulated and also insulated "inside" the vehicle.

 

[GRA]

I wonder if TMS on the Focus helped keep the battery warmer, hence better range. If the Focus battery is well insulated, the warm battery thanks to TMS whiled plugged in at the garage before leaving to work can keep the Focus battery warm for a long time (especially with good insulation and a big mass), which may help with the range.

I wonder with the LEAF battery being designed to have more surface area spread out at the bottom for natural cooling also causes it to be exposed to the cold sooner. Meanwhile, the lump of the Focus battery is in the back of the trunk, all lumped up with a smaller surface area, well insulated and also insulated "inside" the vehicle.

I've previously quoted the relevant section of the FFE manual in the FFE thread, and it doesn't say anything at all about battery heating, just battery cooling using the internal A/C. Doesn't mean it doesn't have it, but you'd think they'd mention it. It probably does have better insulation.

Update: It does have pack heating. See my later post.

 

[nosuchthing]

Fact remains that you can't cram the same amount of electrons into the same battery at 20 degrees as you can at 50 degrees. I have noticed that my Leaf range dropped at least 10% (to about 66 freeway miles) in the dead of Marin "winter" the last few weeks, and it literally jumped back to 73+ once the nights warmed up to 40s.

I already thought my battery was going bad. It apparently wasn't the case much to my relief.

So...if FFE has any kind of TM for those cold charging nights, and keeps the battery "comfortable," hence the result.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

3 cooling loops, 2 heating loops.

not sure I can take a "1.5" trips over "2.5" trips. how about a regular range test.

there is waaaaaaaay too much variability from day to day for me to read too much into what you have presented here

 

[nosuchthing]

I keep hearing a lot of good things about this FFE.
I wish it could do "real world" hills and all 100 miles at 65 mph...

Even though... I am not buing another EV until I see 160-200 miles EPA range.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Have to say that need a real rsnge test. Its 3 miles better on the far from perfect EPA but even they arent that bad

 

[klusters]

Thanks for your comments.
To answer a few questions, the cars were always outside on the days I drove them. My wife takes the garage. I didn't use preheating or HVAC. I would crack the windows when they fog up or if the outside air was too cold I would use a squeegee to wipe the interior of the windshield. I did my best to minimize any electrical usage that did not directly go towards moving the car. I kept speed under 40 to lower wind resistance. I would avg 170-190 Wh/mile (from dash) in the Ford and 4.8-5.2 miles/Wh (from dash) in the Nissan. Cars were charged to 100%, the Nissan had about 2,500 miles on it at the time, the Ford about 500 so pretty much new.

I agree that a more accurate range test is warranted to reveal exactly what the mileage difference is between the two. I disagree that there are too many variables in the commuting test to make an accurate assessment. The route was exactly the same every day and each car drove it on alternating days multiple times. So the variations in days would include traffic patterns and weather. These would be mitigated, one would expect, by the multiple samples over the course of a month.

After driving them for a while you kind of get a feel for how far you can go and what you can do to conserve battery power. I consistently got the sense that at least under freezing winter conditions the Leaf does not even come close to matching the FFE in range.

That being said I would still choose the Leaf over the FFE, its just more fun to drive and more personable. Not to mention, more interior space and cargo room. Still looking for some "My other car is also an EV" bumper stickers....

 

[klusters]

To answer some questions that I missed. I don't use Eco mode in the Leaf. Instead try to keep it close to zero level on the center screen where the circle energy usage graph indicates battery usage. Also shift into neutral when i have enough momentum + several other hypermiling type tricks

I too don't know why the FFE would be so much better. It was my understanding that the TMS system was mostly for cooling. And i think the usable battery power is 10%+ smaller in the FFE compared w the leaf. Also the FFE is heavier. Recently I saw a video where that the Leafs regenerative braking is less efficient than its rivals. So maybe that in addition to the TMS makes up for the difference.

 

[Volusiano]

My wife takes the garage. I didn't use preheating or HVAC.

I assume when you say your wife takes the garage, it means the Focus sits inside the garage. If the Focus is in the garage and connected to the EVSE to it overnight, I can see it using the connection to keep the battery warm, even if you didn't use preheat or HVAC, because the preheating set by the user is for cabin preheating only. Keeping the battery warm is something the Focus would do by itself without any user input. Of the 2 heating loops mentioned, one is probably for battery heating and the other for cabin heating.

So if the Focus sits in the garage, is connected to the EVSE to draw wall power to keep the battery warm, and being charged up fully and able to store more electrons because the battery is nice and toasty, then it'd make sense that it can hold more energy. Once you leave for work, the well insulated battery can stay nice an toasty for a long time. And by the time you leave from work, it may lose some heat, enough to cool it down a bit but not necessarily be really cold at ambient temperature. All the while holding those extra electrons it has.

The poor LEAF on the other hand sits outside all night, if being charged up, probably can't be charged fully because the battery is too cold to soak up enough electrons. By the time you leave for work, its battery is already dead cold at ambient temperature and remains cold throughout the day until you leave from work.

 

[evnow]

My wife takes the garage. I didn't use preheating or HVAC.

I assume when you say your wife takes the garage, it means the Focus sits inside the garage.

No - I think he means, his wife puts whatever car she drives in the garage. So, whatever klusters drives, is outside.

OT - one of the most surprising thing is people park an expensive car outside and keep junk in the garage. Unless, in this case, they have a single car garage.

 

[tcherniaev]

I work in two offices. On the days when I park in the office with the heated garage (around 60F), I get a lot more range going home because the car has been sitting in 60F for 9+ hours. When I work in the other office and the car has been sitting in 20F all day my range drops by something like 40-50%. Winter range in LEAF is terrible. Based in this discussion, I think I will try to test drive FFE.

 

[planet4ever]

My wife takes the garage. I didn't use preheating or HVAC.

I assume when you say your wife takes the garage, it means the Focus sits inside the garage.

No - I think he means, his wife puts whatever car she drives in the garage. So, whatever klusters drives, is outside.

No, not exactly, assuming your interpretation is right. It would be "whatever klusters drove yesterday, is outside." So if his test of the FFE came after his wife had driven it the previous day, that would be an advantage, as Volusiano suggested. I believe the point is that it is the temperature of the battery when it is charged that matters, not its temperature when it is driven.

Ray