Nissan Leaf vs Tesla Model S

[Shaka]

Sparky. Wow! Awesome reply thank you so much. That was Chock full of great data. And sounds similar to my driving today 300+ miles round trip. Yeah I agree adding support to advise of actual range averages WRT next destination would be nice. Either way I do agree the Leaf is a nice car as your wife says. But just needs more range. Thx for your contribution!

 

[lorenfb]

You might consider providing information about the added costs of home charging upgrades
between the two vehicles, i.e. the costs for overnight charging for the Leaf (L2 - 6.6 Kw ~ 4-5 hrs)
versus the Tesla which requires a major electrical upgrade (dedicated 100 amp service) to fully
charge in less than 8-10 hours. Most/all Tesla owners don't have access to the SCs in their local
neighborhoods and must rely most of the time on home charging. This is especially a problematic
issue for a potential Tesla buyer living in a condo complex.

The Leaf has an advantage that no electrical upgrade (for most households) is required for overnight
charging using L1 (110 VAC) and for some even L2 (220 VAC). Home charging will be a major factor
for the sale of BEVs as the battery capacities increase, which many BEV buyers are unaware of at the
onset of the purchase decision.

 

[Shaka]

lorenfb- you sound very misinformed. Allow me to explain what I mean.

First off you can learn more about my specified home charging setup here:
http://arijaycomet.com/2014/12/21/comparison-electric-vehicle-charging-stations-evse-leviton-evb40-pst-versus-schneider-ev2430ws-evlink/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For us we found that 110v home charging was not enough. Many days we exceed the range (74 miles) of our 2012 leaf (3.3 KW charging). As such we spent around $1,000 (labor + materials) to run an 8ga wire (30A charger) to our garage two years ago. Though you can charge a leaf L1 it would never have allowed us the 20k miles in 24mos as we quite often need to charge after work or mid-day to accomplish our needs. On average we charged our leaf 4 hours each night, a cost of $35/mo, at level two. And it required $1k in home updates.

Where you are wrong then is that first the Tesla comes with free cables to allow 110v charging. Secondly, it also can charge just as fast (actually faster because it can handle up to 40A- and 80A if you buy dual chargers). This means our single charger car gets 10 KW charging which is higher than the 6.6 kW you get on new leaf and 3x the speed of our older 2012 Nissan.

We recently picked up a new charger (see link above) that works for BOTH cars (Tesla comes with a free J1772 adapter). So for less than $1000 installed (prices are lower now than two years ago) we have a L2 charger that works on both vehicles. We can fully charge the Tesla in 8-hours, but this far have found that 5-6 hours is suffice (it charges at what tesla rates as "30mph" -- we add 30 miles of range per hour of charge). That means on a day we drove double the range of our Leaf (150-miles) it would take only 5-hours to charge. Where that same 5 hours of L2 leaf charging would only cover half the miles approximately.

So again I don't see your point as being valid nor accurate. Most people will need to evaluate their mileage and needs per their basis. I know people who charge 110v at home & work and don't need L2 charging at all, which both cars support. And I know people who have L2 at home too. Again per person per miles per car each unique. But their is no advantage of one car to other here. Our leaf from empty takes 10+ hours to charge. People do need to realize a Tesla has a bigger battery and therefor needs more time to charge, but you add more miles back per hour of charge on the tesla no matter what, thanks to a 10kw charger on board (larger than ANY leaf). Ciao!!

 

[Shaka]

Forgot to add -- where in the world did you read you need 100-amp dedicated service? You can charge a normal base Tesla single charge unit (which has a max 40-amp feed on a 50-amp breaker) at 30mph so a 85 kWh battery is 265 miles means 8-9 hours and that's assuming 0-100% -- ideally you charge from 10-90% for sake of battery degradation so 80% charge only 7-hours needed at L4. Which yes is more than Leaf but most people I know are home/asleep at least that long. Plus again 4-5 hours for 74 miles vs 7-hours for 210 miles range. Tesla wins hands down.

 

[lorenfb]

lorenfb- you sound very misinformed. Allow me to explain what I mean.

First off you can learn more about my specified home charging setup here:
http://arijaycomet.com/2014/12/21/comparison-electric-vehicle-charging-stations-evse-leviton-evb40-pst-versus-schneider-ev2430ws-evlink/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For us we found that 110v home charging was not enough. Many days we exceed the range (74 miles) of our 2012 leaf (3.3 KW charging). As such we spent around $1,000 (labor + materials) to run an 8ga wire (30A charger) to our garage two years ago. Though you can charge a leaf L1 it would never have allowed us the 20k miles in 24mos as we quite often need to charge after work or mid-day to accomplish our needs. On average we charged our leaf 4 hours each night, a cost of $35/mo, at level two. And it required $1k in home updates.

Where you are wrong then is that first the Tesla comes with free cables to allow 110v charging. Secondly, it also can charge just as fast (actually faster because it can handle up to 40A- and 80A if you buy dual chargers). This means our single charger car gets 10 KW charging which is higher than the 6.6 kW you get on new leaf and 3x the speed of our older 2012 Nissan.

We recently picked up a new charger (see link above) that works for BOTH cars (Tesla comes with a free J1772 adapter). So for less than $1000 installed (prices are lower now than two years ago) we have a L2 charger that works on both vehicles. We can fully charge the Tesla in 8-hours, but this far have found that 5-6 hours is suffice (it charges at what tesla rates as "30mph" -- we add 30 miles of range per hour of charge). That means on a day we drove double the range of our Leaf (150-miles) it would take only 5-hours to charge. Where that same 5 hours of L2 leaf charging would only cover half the miles approximately.

So again I don't see your point as being valid nor accurate. Most people will need to evaluate their mileage and needs per their basis. I know people who charge 110v at home & work and don't need L2 charging at all, which both cars support. And I know people who have L2 at home too. Again per person per miles per car each unique. But their is no advantage of one car to other here. Our leaf from empty takes 10+ hours to charge. People do need to realize a Tesla has a bigger battery and therefor needs more time to charge, but you add more miles back per hour of charge on the tesla no matter what, thanks to a 10kw charger on board (larger than ANY leaf). Ciao!!

Be realistic, you're NOT really going to charge the Tesla using 110, i.e. maybe if you just drive < 10 miles
daily.

Bottom Line: Sorry, most who drive a Tesla and fully utilize its' range, need a costly electrical upgrade!

 

[Shaka]

Did you even read my reply? Apparently not. My leaf required a L2 charger. The cost for these units is as low as $800 installed these days. Is that what you consider costly? Because my Leaf required L2 for me to make it work for my home. My Tesla needed the same and it was $1,000 installed (40 vs 30 amp device, which works on both cars).

So what are you talking about? I don't know many people who can charge their leaf 110v alone. Of the half dozen friends I have with EVs here in Ohio all but one upgraded to L2 charging. The most was $1200 installed. And that is with a leaf. And nobody had to spend a dime more. All homes here are find with a 30-40 amp line same as your electric range or dryer.

Based on that the cost to charge a leaf vs tesla is identical. Both yield same cost per mile range. Both require installing identically priced L2 home charging. So what are you getting at? Maybe 110v for you works and you didn't have to spend $800-1000. But is that costly in your eyes? To me spending $1000 on a car where most buyers put down $2,000-20,000 is not what I would refer to as "costly"

 

[Shaka]

To word this another way:

Most people (I know) who bought an EV (or plug in hybrid) required spending $800-1,200 on L2 home charging. That to me is a VERY small cost compared to what they put down on their lease or loan. Nobody I know complained. And none of them but one owned a Tesla. And he spent even LESS than the leaf owner did for his charging. And he can leave home each morning with 4x the range of his leaf charging during sleep. So what's your comparison? Because I don't see any difference here or disadvantage with a Tesla.

 

[Shaka]

What I THINK you're trying to say (though doing a poor job of it) is that Tesla owners need to realize you need L2 charging to be able to recharge a full 60 or 85 kWh battery overnight. They do a VERY good job explaining that to potential buyers however so I think they are fine there. And again we required 8-10 hours to fully charge our Leaf at 110 which was tough to do some nights and the limited daily range was not enough.

But again if installation of L2 charging is a problem (condo complex) then public L2 works too. You do NOT need supercharged. We have already charged (for FREE) our Tesla at L2 public stations. And since it goes so much further on a single charge you also don't have to charge as often. Yes L1 + Tesla would be a not great combo. But most people buying a tesla are informed of this , no issues, public charging options etc. $800-1,200 doesn't seem costly to me.

I see you updated your original post wording. Still don't think it is 100% accurately worded but closer to accurate now

 

[Shaka]

http://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/leaf/charging-range/charging/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nissan clearly expects most users to go L2 as their site is plastered with links to the page above. They list / word it as 5-hours at 240v, with very little mention of 110 charging. From my local dealers feedback they tell me 80% or more of buyers get a home charger. From contacts I have in electric contracting jobs there are LOTS of L2 EV chargers being installed.

Tesla site also expects people to buy their chargers. Which by the way is CHEAPER !!!

http://shop.teslamotors.com/collections/model-s-charging-adapters/products/high-power-wall-connector" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

$999 charger from Nissan
$750 charger from Tesla

But again both companies have designed their websites to reflect that most customers appear to upgrade their home. Surely in bigger cities with more city drivers and L2 public stations maybe that isn't the case. But here in Cleveland Ohio the home L2 is "the norm"

And the web sites do a great job explaining those prices and details. So I stand by my stance that your "concerns" are not an issue, not indicative of an issue for most buyers. But Of course information is key. We can only hope dealers are doing as good a job informing potential buyers as you & I are doing here hashing this out LOL

 

[lorenfb]

What I THINK you're trying to say (though doing a poor job of it) is that Tesla owners need to realize you need L2 charging to be able to recharge a full 60 or 85 kWh battery overnight.

LOL!

That statement is NOT correct. It's not at all possible to fully charge a 60/85 kWh battery overnight (12 hrs)
using L2 charging for most Tesla owners who near fully utilize their ranges. Furthermore, to optimize the
charging time for the lowest rates, the charging 'window' is considerably less than "overnight" requiring
a charging capability greater than L2.

Given your above inaccurate statement, that as a minimum should have been mentioned in the writeup
comparing the Leaf & Tesla, i.e. that most Leaf owners require less costly home charging upgrades.

 

[apvbguy]

You might consider providing information about the added costs of home charging upgrades
between the two vehicles, i.e. the costs for overnight charging for the Leaf (L2 - 6.6 Kw ~ 4-5 hrs)
versus the Tesla which requires a major electrical upgrade (dedicated 100 amp service)

who told you that the tesla needs "a dedicated 100 amp service'?
I am using 50 amps for overnight charging, if you have the dual charger option then the 100 amp service cuts the charge time by about half but it certainly isn't necessary.

 

[cwerdna]

Shaka, can you please stop using the word "charger" when you mean EVSE. For L1 and L2 AC charging on both your Leaf and your Model S, the CHARGER is on-board the car. The units you're plugging into for L1 and L2 AC charging, including Tesla's UMC (http://shop.teslamotors.com/products/model-s-mobile-connector-bundle" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false and HPWC (http://shop.teslamotors.com/products/high-power-wall-connector" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false are EVSEs. Notice C in both cases stands for connector and not charger?

Please see http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14728&p=332668#p332668" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

If you use a CHAdeMO DC fast charger or Tesla Supercharger, then yes, those ARE chargers and the car's on-board chargers are bypassed.

 

[Shaka]

What I THINK you're trying to say (though doing a poor job of it) is that Tesla owners need to realize you need L2 charging to be able to recharge a full 60 or 85 kWh battery overnight.

LOL!

That statement is NOT correct. It's not at all possible to fully charge a 60/85 kWh battery overnight (12 hrs)
using L2 charging for most Tesla owners who near fully utilize their ranges. Furthermore, to optimize the
charging time for the lowest rates, the charging 'window' is considerably less than "overnight" requiring
a charging capability greater than L2.

Given your above inaccurate statement, that as a minimum should have been mentioned in the writeup
comparing the Leaf & Tesla, i.e. that most Leaf owners require less costly home charging upgrades.

Do you own a Tesla? I ask because last night I charged my Tesla from just under 20% charge to 90% charge in 6-hours on my $650 charger (40A Leviton). So it seems like I just defied your statement above. Wouldn't you agree? Again let me restate, over 70% of SOC was regained in 6-hours. Most people charge 50-90% SOC in tesla using end level adjustment. 6-8 hours more than suffice at L2 levels. Ball is back in your court.

 

[apvbguy]

LOL!

That statement is NOT correct. It's not at all possible to fully charge a 60/85 kWh battery overnight (12 hrs)
using L2 charging for most Tesla owners who near fully utilize their ranges. Furthermore, to optimize the
charging time for the lowest rates, the charging 'window' is considerably less than "overnight" requiring
a charging capability greater than L2.

cut your loses, you are clueless, stop babbling about something that you apparently know NOTHING about

 

[Shaka]

Sorry cwerdna. Your comment is correct "EVSE" -- it doesn't help matters that places like Leviton refer to their units as "charging stations" -- but yes I do personally know the difference and understand what you mean. SORRT! :twisted:

Anyhow, the crux is that the L2 EVSE in question here is suffice to charge Tesla in < 8 hours. But yes for those not in the know the charger is on board. My Leaf is a 3.3 kWh charger on board. New ones have optional 6.6 kWh. And yes my Tesla is 10 kwh or such.

Back to the point of this cray-cray discussion howwver is that a 40A EVSE will supply sufficient power to a single charger Tesla to allow a full charge overnight contradicting what one user here thinks

 

[Shaka]

Here... more "fuel" for lorenfb ...

Check out this link:
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/SectionDisplay.jsp?section=60753&minisite=10251" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Take note that for a Nissan Leaf with the 6.6 kW unit you are suggested that you purchase the EXACT same charger as the Tesla Model S. Also note that Nissan claims "It takes about five hours to go from empty to a full charge with the 6.6 kW onboard charger" -- and their car is rated at 84-miles for a 24 kWh battery. (Remember my car has the smaller 3.3 kW unit, so it would charge significantly slower at the same EVSE supply)

In comparison, Tesla offers a 10 kW charging unit on-board in all cars (you can upgrade to a second but most users do not). Since Tesla offers "more" data than Nissan, I used the calculator here for various examples: http://www.teslamotors.com/charging#/calculator" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My 2014 Tesla has a rated range of 265 miles. Using my wall connector (the SAME one that is the SAME cost for the Nissan), it would take 9-hours to fully charge my car from empty to full. Again this is a 240V 40A circuit, which can be VERY inexpensively installed in any home.

In comparison, if I only drove my Tesla for 85-miles (the rated range of a new Nissan Leaf, mine being 2012 is only rated for mid-70-miles)-- the Tesla would only take 3-hours to charge. This is 2-hours FASTER than the Nissan because again it has a 10 kW charger on-board, rather than a 6.6 kW (or in my case 3.3 kW) unit. Meaning, not only are you 100% wrong lorenfb, the truth is that the Tesla actually chargers FASTER with the same L2 charger.

Now let me look at two other scenarios here.

USER #1 - LIGHT DRIVING
This person NEVER drives their Leaf more than 75-miles per day (we won't even get into efficiency, and the fact that getting rated range is impossible in just about any EV at least here in Ohio in the cold of winter, etc). They have 10-hours at home every night. They buy/lease a Nissan Leaf, and charge at home each evening with 110-volts. I've personally never tried this but my understanding is that with a 6.6 kW charger you COULD completely recharge a Leaf in 10-hours at 6.6 kW. However, my 3.3 kW charger in my 2012 required FAR more than 10-hours to fully recharge. Plus on many days I drive more than 75-miles (or in winter, I only get 40-45 miles per charge due to weather) (so I am personally NOT User #1)

USER #2 - MODERATE TO HIGH DRIVING
This is what I believe MOST people need. If not daily, at least evenings & weekends. Especially in the Midwest, where a drive to work suck as mine (25-miles) uses up 60-70% rated range in the winter time (Today we yielded only 3.75 miles per bar, and around 2.9 miles per kWh on the dash). Based on this we charged the Leaf to 80%, and when we got home it had 12-miles range remaining, 2-bars on the dash, and we had driven 31-miles. We would have been able to yield at most 45 miles-- driving in ECO mode, heat set to 68-deg F interior cabin, exterior temps 20-40 degrees today. People in this situation will REQUIRE charing almost all the time they are at home, and L2 charging is FAR superior.

BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS THIS....

(1) if you buy ANY EV, and drive in excess of 50-miles per day, you'll need L2 EVSE charging at home (or frequent visits to L2 EVSE locations) to maintain the range on a Nissan Leaf

(2) the cost to purchase EVSE for a Tesla vs Nissan Leaf is nearly identical, or in my case, 100% the same because we bought one EVSE that works for both cars ... you should be able to get an L2 EVSE installed at most residences across the USA for under $1,000 total materials & labor

(3) pricing to charge these two cars is nearly identical, and the effective cost-per-mile is also VERY similar... though driving style and such will matter. However, our finding thus far is that the price for the Nissan Leaf has been around $0.042 per mile, compared to the Tesla at $0.046 per mile (this is cost I pay per kWh against the efficiency listed on vehicle dash only).

(4) all potential buyers of an EVSE should make sure to look at their range needs, mileage, ability to add an EVSE (L2) to their residence, or access to such stations in the wild where possible. I'd suspect in many larger cities public L2 stations would negate the need for such at home, and obviously as mentioned here a condo or similar situation might make L2 install impossible... but again, if you drive enough mileage you'll need that, regardless of which car you get... because they both require L2 for most users ( > 50 miles per day) ... those users who drive "few" miles would have equally as easy time using 110v to charge EITHER car....

Ciao! - Ari

 

[Zythryn]

... It's not at all possible to fully charge a 60/85 kWh battery overnight (12 hrs)
using L2 charging for most Tesla owners who near fully utilize their ranges. Furthermore, to optimize the
charging time for the lowest rates, the charging 'window' is considerably less than "overnight" requiring
a charging capability greater than L2.
...

Loren, you seem to have something personal against Tesla, Musk, or both.
Although you have been corrected more than once by others, I'll add my experience.

Our 85kWh Tesla charges empty to full at level 2 rates (40 amp) in 9 to 9.5 hours. Our 60 charges in 7. Although I know very few, actually no owners, that typically use that full range.

While it may require an expensive upgrade for some, it is about the same cost as any other lvl 2 charger upgrade for a Leaf, i3, etc. Quite possibly less since all you need is the NEMA 14-50 outlet.
In my particular case it costs $245 dollars for our first, and then again for the second.

Oh, and our lowest rate is available for 12 hours, so no, the "charging window" is not shorter than overnight for everyone. It may be for some, but not all.

 

[rogersleaf]

Take note that for a Nissan Leaf with the 6.6 kW unit you are suggested that you purchase the EXACT same charger as the Tesla Model S. Also note that Nissan claims "It takes about five hours to go from empty to a full charge with the 6.6 kW onboard charger" -- and their car is rated at 84-miles for a 24 kWh battery. (Remember my car has the smaller 3.3 kW unit, so it would charge significantly slower at the same EVSE supply)

In comparison, Tesla offers a 10 kW charging unit on-board in all cars (you can upgrade to a second but most users do not). Since Tesla offers "more" data than Nissan, I used the calculator here for various examples: http://www.teslamotors.com/charging#/calculator" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My 2014 Tesla has a rated range of 265 miles. Using my wall connector (the SAME one that is the SAME cost for the Nissan), it would take 9-hours to fully charge my car from empty to full. Again this is a 240V 40A circuit, which can be VERY inexpensively installed in any home.

In comparison, if I only drove my Tesla for 85-miles (the rated range of a new Nissan Leaf, mine being 2012 is only rated for mid-70-miles)-- the Tesla would only take 3-hours to charge. This is 2-hours FASTER than the Nissan because again it has a 10 kW charger on-board, rather than a 6.6 kW (or in my case 3.3 kW) unit. Meaning, not only are you 100% wrong lorenfb, the truth is that the Tesla actually chargers FASTER with the same L2 charger.

My experience running a 6.6 kW leaf is it recovers ~30% battery per hour on a full 6600 watt L2. My daily drive into Cleveland is 73 miles round trip, takes the leaf battery from 100% down to ~15-20% in decent weather (too cold now, the leaf is parked most days). Then can recover the vast majority of battery in roughly 2.5 hours before the reduced wattage delivery kicks in. The last 5% takes as long as L1, the last 15% takes about the same as a 3.3 kW leaf. The stretch in charge time to ~5 hours is based on the charge amperage reduction as the battery approaches full. The comparison to a much larger Tesla battery is basically apples to oranges as this larger battery can take draw full power over a longer period of time and at a marginally hotter L2 rate.

Your 30 amp unit is likely more than enough for normal daily use. If not, the Supercharger is not far away. Some on this forum would not be satisfied with charging delivery unless it dims the streetlights and melts your home wiring in the process. Good luck with your Tesla, will be watching for it.

 

[lorenfb]

While it may require an expensive upgrade for some, it is about the same cost as any other lvl 2 charger upgrade for a Leaf, i3, etc. Quite possibly less since all you need is the NEMA 14-50 outlet.
In my particular case it costs $245 dollars for our first, and then again for the second.

Oh, and our lowest rate is available for 12 hours, so no, the "charging window" is not shorter than overnight for everyone. It may be for some, but not all.

So there is a cost difference for some, right, especially for NEMA 14-50 service. As I said, many Leaf owners
get by with a L1 type of service. The writeup should have discussed this important issue to many.
Basically, the writeup over simplified the comparison of the two BEVs.

And here in SoCal (where most Teslas are), many of us don't have all night lower rates.

 

[apvbguy]