surfingslovak said:
GRA said:
And how could I possibly be accused of seeing it one-dimensionally, when I'm comparing price versus performance versus intended driving environment, rather than just 0-60, or skidpad g, or number of doors or MSRP?
Thanks for clarifying that. I would recommend that you test drove the i3, if you had a chance.
Which I plan to do at the first opportunity, as previously stated. I enjoy test driving cars as much as the next person, even when the drive is much too short to get a real feel for the car.
surfingslovak said:
And to be clear, I'm not accusing you of anything, even it that's how it might have been interpreted. I'm just surprised how anyone could honestly compare the Spark to the i3. You are certainly not the only one who has drawn this parallel. We should have an i3 at the January 18 joint BayLEAFs/EAASV meeting at HP in Palo Alto.
It's simple, the Spark gives say 80-90% of what the i3 gives you for 2/3rd of the price. The question is how much that last 10-20% is worth to you, or in this case how many customers in the U.S. will consider it value for money. If the decision were based purely on rational reasons the answer would be 'very few', but then if the majority of car buying decisions were so based we'd have a very different car industry from the one we have. I'm interested to see just how many people in the U.S. are willing to pay so much extra for that last 10-20%, not forgetting the 'value' of the propeller and kidneys.
surfingslovak said:
GRA said:
My issue is whether any sub-100 mile EPA city car, no matter how good it may be, can justify a price increment of $10-$15k over a reasonably competent competitor, or a price upwards of $40k. To me, it can't.
Well, we are about to find out. BMW priced the base model much closer to its relative EV peers in Europe, but took a different approach in the US market. They apparently think that different optioning will justify the price difference, and most prospects will be OK with the range. Time will tell. If you asked me, I would prefer more range over some options. Alternatively, I would pay a premium for it too. That's the reason why I'm considering the REx. Looking at what you wrote above, you might tend to favor more basic packaging, and have an appreciation of good performance and road handling. If that's the case, and BMW offered a base model similar to the one in Europe, with an MSRP in mid to low $30K, then the argument for Spark EV you offered up above would be no longer worth debating.
That's close to it, although for what I need a car for, range is king, more important than any other major feature let alone the luxury bells and whistles. I recognize that I am not the typical consumer - I'd happily accept manual windows and the like to get more range for the same price, and I still don't understand why BMW came out with a BEV with essentially the same range as every sub-$35k BEV available. That's one of the Spark's major advantages for me - Tony's test demonstrated that its real-world range was at least 10 miles more than the LEAF's in freeway driving.
surfingslovak said:
GRA said:
Now, if you were to _give_ me an i3, then sure, I'd probably prefer it over a Spark or 500e; I'll let you know once I drive one, although any car I would consider had better have intuitive controls, and so far my experience with iDrive hasn't been particularly positive. I'm not a fan of touchscreens, menus or toggle-up-down controls in cars, especially for HVAC.
The i3 rides very well. If you read Chris' write-up on InsideEVs, that gives you a good idea. The unconventional design aspects make it a very unique EV. Ride quality, efficiency, connected services and comfort seem to have received more emphasis than other aspects. Whether that's something one would weigh over other priorities depends on individual circumstances and preferences.
Right. To me, 'connected services' is just another way of saying 'distracted driver', and I refuse to use such while driving. Of course, given my increasing deafness that's largely a moot point, but if any lawmaker were to suggest imposition of the death penalty for using a cell phone while driving, I'd be an enthusiastic supporter
OTOH, I recognize that if the automakers hope to sell cars to a largely uninterested Gen Y, they have to provide this sort of thing. Which is why I pray that autonomous cars arrive sooner rather than later, lest the millennials first kill themselves and the rest of us off while talking/texting/tweeting. :roll:
surfingslovak said:
GRA said:
For me, I just wouldn't consider any BEV that lacks a liquid-cooled TMS, until a car without one demonstrates that the battery can tolerate heat over a period of years, although I have high hopes for the Fit's Li-Titanate chemistry. The Fit wins on utility, the 500e hands-down on looks, and in Europe I'd definitely be considering the Zoe.
The MINI-E did spectacularly well in this regard, but we are not sure what the exact chemistry was. The cells were supplied by Molicel. I would tend to agree otherwise, with the caveat that LiFePO can do quite well in the field without liquid cooling. Also, and perhaps more interestingly, there appear to be several ZOE drivers in Europe, who might be looking at the i3 very closely. This would confirm that these two EVs are being cross-shopped. LEAF drivers are typically not content with having less space when doing the initial evaluation. I don't know enough Spark drivers to say anything about their purchasing criteria.
I'm a big fan of LiFePO4 for its heat tolerance, especially with liquid-cooled TMS, which is one reason why i think the Spark is far better suited to be sold universally in the U.S. than the LEAF is. But LiFePO4 loses more capacity (temporarily) when cold, so you've got to provide heating as well. And Li-Titanate anodes have the best cycle life and widest SoC range, but combined with LiFePO4 cathodes have the lowest specific energy and density. Given the choice, I'll take longevity and durability over maximum performance.
At the moment, there isn't a single BEV now or near-term that's meets my major criteria, never mind the minor ones. I'd like the LEAF's cargo space (so I can sleep in the back, carry my bike or my dive gear etc.), but better handling and acceleration, AWD for choice, fast L2 charging plus QC, considerably more range, a battery system that I don't have to baby that will last for many years, and all at a price that doesn't make me snort in derision. There's a long way to go.