Official Infiniti LE thread - early 2017, 60 kWh

[TonyWilliams]

I think this is smart. I thought from the moment I heard LEAF chassis and battery that it was a slow train wreck. Who knows why, but I SERIOUSLY doubt Nissan will consider TMS and since all the "experts" know that I only drive 40 miles per day, there's no need for more capacity.

Meanwhile, Tesla will continue to school the experts. Nissan needs to aim the Infiniti EV straight at the Tesla Gen III Bluestar. Or contract Tesla to build a version as an Infinti. Nissan is likely hopelessly behind with TMS and battery capacity that can compete, since as of January, the highest levels of Nissan announced no intention to consider TMS (but they were considering optional capacity increases).

The current format (size/weight to kWh) of Nissan AESC cells is not on par with Tesla, and Tesla will likely double that density in four years.

 

[kovalb]

Personally I do not want TMS. It wastes energy. When the Model S is plugged in it can draw close to a kW. When it is not plugged-in range reduces. It is also expensive to have a hybrid cooling system with both liquid coolant and A/C refrigerant. All these costs may be OK if you can afford a $100K car, but most people can't.

I would much rather have cell chemistry that can resist the heat. They're out there.

 

[evnow]

Meanwhile, Tesla will continue to school the experts. Nissan needs to aim the Infiniti EV straight at the Tesla Gen III Bluestar. Or contract Tesla to build a version as an Infinti.

It is not difficult to build a TMS - even Ford (& Coda !) has done that. The problem is volume - Leaf simply doesn't have space for TMS. There is a reason why Model S is so huge - it is not just because Musk has so many kids.

 

[ydnas7]

The Infiniti LE always seemed to be a upmarket LEAF, like the Lexus CT200H is to the Prius.

which if so suggests that it was to have the LEAF's 24kWh battery pack...which is too small to compete with Tesla or needs a range extender to compete with BMW.

just release it as a Nissan.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The Infiniti LE always seemed to be a upmarket LEAF, like the Lexus CT200H is to the Prius.

which if so suggests that it was to have the LEAF's 24kWh battery pack...which is too small to compete with Tesla or needs a range extender to compete with BMW.

just release it as a Nissan.

Even the Versa has a sedan and hatchback. LEAF could, too.

 

[TomT]

Actually, a TMS does not have to cost that much or use that much energy. The Tesla system does use more than it should due to the current software implementation, not necessarily due to the TMS, and Tesla plans to fix it in an update. The Volt and a number of other EVS are excellent indicators that a TMS does not have to be expensive or power hungry...

We are a ways off from batteries that are completely immune to temperature degradation, both hot and cold...

Personally I do not want TMS. It wastes energy. When the Model S is plugged in it can draw close to a kW. When it is not plugged-in range reduces. It is also expensive to have a hybrid cooling system with both liquid coolant and A/C refrigerant. All these costs may be OK if you can afford a $100K car, but most people can't.

 

[NotTarts]

Meanwhile, Tesla will continue to school the experts. Nissan needs to aim the Infiniti EV straight at the Tesla Gen III Bluestar. Or contract Tesla to build a version as an Infinti.

It is not difficult to build a TMS - even Ford (& Coda !) has done that. The problem is volume - Leaf simply doesn't have space for TMS. There is a reason why Model S is so huge - it is not just because Musk has so many kids.

Not really due to the TMS. The battery pack in the Model S is only 2.5x the area of the Leaf's battery despite holding 3.5x more energy. So it's 35% denser even with the TMS.

If you meant to say the Leaf can't use a proper TMS with its current battery chemistry, you'd definitely be right.

 

[evnow]

Not really due to the TMS. The battery pack in the Model S is only 2.5x the area of the Leaf's battery despite holding 3.5x more energy. So it's 35% denser even with the TMS.

If you meant to say the Leaf can't use a proper TMS with its current battery chemistry, you'd definitely be right.

Tesla uses commodity cells, so if they didn't have a TMS the cars would be going up in flames every now & then. So, they have a TMS - and quite a sophisticated one at that. Commodity cells also happen to have much better density - that is why the pack as a whole is denser.

Not sure what your last sentence means - obviously it is wrong - same chemistry as Volt/FFE that have TMS but with great sacrifices in space.

 

[kovalb]

Actually, a TMS does not have to cost that much or use that much energy. The Tesla system does use more than it should due to the current software implementation, not necessarily due to the TMS, and Tesla plans to fix it in an update. The Volt and a number of other EVS are excellent indicators that a TMS does not have to be expensive or power hungry...

We are a ways off from batteries that are completely immune to temperature degradation, both hot and cold...

How much do you think it would cost to add a liquid coolant loop, a A/C refrigerant loop, and the associated control systems? A thousand dollars? Maybe two or three thousand? IMHO it is expensive. It would also increase service costs and complexity because all those loops would require connectors.

I agree there is no perfect battery that is completely immune to temperature degradation. Engineering is not about perfection. It is about appropriate compromises. Assuming degradation can be reduced sufficiently there would be no need for a TMS. This should be achievable. If you view the video of Andy Palmer in Phoenix he alludes to such an approach.

 

[evnow]

I agree there is no perfect battery that is completely immune to temperature degradation. Engineering is not about perfection. It is about appropriate compromises. Assuming degradation can be reduced sufficiently there would be no need for a TMS. This should be achievable. If you view the video of Andy Palmer in Phoenix he alludes to such an approach.

What I've not understood is - why did Nissan actually use Phoenix/Arizona as a launching area ?!

Only reasonable assumption is that they didn't know the battery would degrade this fast in Phoenix.

As to battery tech in future that doesn't degrade, great. But that is not what they have now. So either Nissan has to not sell Leafs in hot areas - or they have to rig up a TMS.

I think this is at the core of the reason why they decided to put LE on hold - though investment priorities would have played a part too - it would probably take a bit of investment to package the TMS and a bigger battery into LE.

 

[TonyWilliams]

As to battery tech in future that doesn't degrade, great. But that is not what they have now. So either Nissan has to not sell Leafs in hot areas - or they have to rig up a TMS.

Yep, it really is that simple.

 

[DanCar]

What I've not understood is - why did Nissan actually use Phoenix/Arizona as a launching area ?!
Only reasonable assumption is that they didn't know the battery would degrade this fast in Phoenix.
.

In 2010 or 2011 saw a video where Nissan indicated that they had to test and make sure it worked in Phoenix to satisfy federal loan requirements.
I think Nissan needs to increase the battery warranty to 8 years.

 

[TomT]

Clearly it was not much of a test!

In 2010 or 2011 saw a video where Nissan indicated that they had to test and make sure it worked in Phoenix to satisfy federal loan requirements.

 

[TonyWilliams]

What I've not understood is - why did Nissan actually use Phoenix/Arizona as a launching area ?!
Only reasonable assumption is that they didn't know the battery would degrade this fast in Phoenix.
.

In 2010 or 2011 saw a video where Nissan indicated that they had to test and make sure it worked in Phoenix to satisfy federal loan requirements.
I think Nissan needs to increase the battery warranty to 8 years.

Wow!!! I'd love to see that!!

That would explain why they were so adamant that everything is "normal"... it HAD_TO_BE_NORMAL !!!

 

[TRONZ]

It's the nature of Japanese companies to take what someone has done and improve on it. Nissan's "premium" EV going on hold is just an admission that Tesla has dramatically changed the landscape in this segment. Ghosn has often said he "does not want to wake up competition". But in hindsight this just meant that he never viewed Tesla as a possible competitor. Lesson learned. I would bet on this topic Ghosn today would say that the Infiniti EV MUST be competitive with Tesla or they will not do it. They are seriously regrouping on the Infiniti but now with a very clear target. I will be surprised if the next Infiniti EV concept is based on the LEAF in any way.

 

[evnow]

Nissan's "premium" EV going on hold is just an admission that Tesla has dramatically changed the landscape in this segment.

I think Tesla is being overblown these days - just because it's stock went thr' the roof.

Since gen 3 is still several years away, Infiniti could still get their car today and plan on getting the right Tesla gen 3 fighting model in 4 years.

We should remember, Infiniti probably made this decision quite sometime back. The only competitor to LE really is the BMW i3. LE would have been quite competitive with i3 (without the REX).

 

[TonyWilliams]

... Tesla has dramatically changed the landscape in this segment. Ghosn has often said he "does not want to wake up competition". But in hindsight this just meant that he never viewed Tesla as a possible competitor. Lesson learned. I would bet on this topic Ghosn today would say that the Infiniti EV MUST be competitive with Tesla or they will not do it. They are seriously regrouping on the Infiniti but now with a very clear target. I will be surprised if the next Infiniti EV concept is based on the LEAF in any way.

Excellent observations. It's funny how many people wrote off Tesla, or looked right over them like they weren't even there.

 

[mwalsh]

Nissan's "premium" EV going on hold is just an admission that Tesla has dramatically changed the landscape in this segment.

I think Tesla is being overblown these days - just because it's stock went thr' the roof.

Yeah. Even Faux News is hyping Tesla now! And conveniently forgets that whole government loan thing. :lol:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCbWoZnLHZ4[/youtube]

 

[TomT]

Companies like Nissan move so slowly compared to companies like Tesla, it make be a target they can never catch...

I think Tesla is being overblown these days - just because it's stock went thr' the roof.
Since gen 3 is still several years away, Infiniti could still get their car today and plan on getting the right Tesla gen 3 fighting model in 4 years.

 

[TRONZ]

Actually being a leader in anything is much harder since everyone is watching, plotting and trying to beat you to a pulp. In this regard the Japanese are very good at coming out with products that are improvements on established leading products. Ghosn is very competitive and not dumb. Him tossing aside the LE is a tip of the hat to Elon and recognition that its going to take a lot more than warmed up LEAF tech to make Tesla nervous. It might also be a good time to remind ourselves that the LE concept was not an especially attractive car.