Official Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV SUV thread

[GRA]

... but how many people were considering the Outlander solely because it was a C23,249UV, and what percentage of those people need that much space (and are willing to do without the Audi's better performance and handling)?

I don't know what a "C23,249UV" is, but... me?

My holy grail is a PHEV with decent EV range that can comfortably hold an entire family and their stuff. I may be the only person in North America who values pretty much everything else over performance, but have you seen how many SUVs Americans buy? And 90% of those things have horrible performance. I floored my in-laws' Explorer last month and had to look at my foot to make sure I was hitting the right peddle. And I sat so high in that thing, it made 80 mph feel like 20. Nothing about that ride screamed "performance" to me, and yet Ford is selling those things faster than they can make them.

Sorry, weird editing error. Should read "CUV". As for the rest, yes, some people will want a larger vehicle akin to an SUV, and will be less concerned about performance. Some people (like me) will want a smaller wagon/CUV with better performance (at least in the Bay Area, there's lots of RAV4s/CRVs/Foresters/Outbacks/Sportwagens etc, a lot fewer BROD-class SUVs than formerly. This is the largest PEV market in the country by %, and 2nd in total numbers to LA, so the small CUV/big SUV split here will have a major impact on Mitsubishi's total market).

The different groups will be able to self-segregate with the Outlander and A3. If Mitsubishi had introduced the Outlander here when originally announced, they would have been able to scoop up both groups.

BTW, nothing about big SUVs says they have to have lousy performance; the latest F-150 4x4 crew cab with the Ecoboost twin-turbo V-6 engine is good for 5.6 seconds 0-60, rated for 17/23 mpg. Slap an enclosed cargo bay on that and call it an Explorer, and you'd have no doubt that your foot was on the correct pedal :lol:

 

[evnow]

As for the rest, yes, some people will want a larger vehicle akin to an SUV, and will be less concerned about performance. Some people (like me) will want a smaller wagon/CUV with better performance (at least in the Bay Area, there's lots of RAV4s/CRVs/Foresters/Outbacks/Sportwagens etc, a lot fewer BROD-class SUVs than formerly. This is the largest PEV market in the country by %, and 2nd in total numbers to LA, so the small CUV/big SUV split here will have a major impact on Mitsubishi's total market).

My guess is more people will get a bigger car than they need - compared to a smaller car for a lot more money. Definitely the case with us.

Also wagon is not the same as a SUV/CUV. SUVs/CUVs have a higher seating position which a lot of people like because it gives better visibility.

 

[TomT]

There are a couple coming out mid/late next year that will give it a strong run for the money. Unfortunately, I can't talk about them (NDA)...

Also ran compared to what? BMWs and Volvo's with 8-speed transmissions and price tags higher than a Tesla 85? Mitsubishi is still the only company that's not just bolting a battery onto an existing, unmodified ICE drive train.

 

[ydnas7]

in USA, Mitsubishi builds the Outlander Sport but not the Outlander.

so Mitsubishi's USA focus is likely to be what is currently known as XR-PHEV
just imagine the Outlander Sport but with a plug and priced at the same price that Mitsubishi sells the diesel version.

so expect 2 PHEVs for USA
Outlander PHEV just like the global Outlander PHEV (ie AWD PHEV, same price as diesel AWD)
Outlander Sport PHEV just like global ASX (ie FWD PHEV, same price as diesel)

As the Outlander Sport is about 10% more fuel efficient than its equivalent Outlander (its a smaller vehicle), expect that at minimum, the Outlander Sport PHEV should have 10% more range than its larger AWD PHEV brother.

I don't expect Mitsubishi to increase the capacity of its PHEV battery, but I do expect the Mitsubishi to increase the SOC range of it PHEV battery, so perhaps the Outlander Sport PHEV will have about 20% more EV range than today's Outlander AWD PHEV, at considerably lower price (but no AWD), and more blended mode acceleration and more pure EV mode acceleration.

I don't expect the Outlander PHEV to be purchase price competitive with Cam-cord-tima.
I do expect the Outlander Sport PHEV to be purchase price competitive with V6 Cam-cord-tima. (or diesel Passat)

 

[ydnas7]

roughly

target for Outlander Sport PHEV
20% cheaper for purchase price (even better if leased)
20% more range
20% quicker acceleration in all modes
vs the Outlander PHEV

but no AWD

 

[edatoakrun]

We'll know what it looks like next week, anyway:

Mitsubishi Motors North America will unveil the 2016 Outlander at the New York International Auto Show next week as a part of its freshened design lineup.

The 2016 re-engineered Outlander will be the first vehicle to show the Mitsubishi brand’s new design language, the company said in a statement. The automaker also released teaser photos of the vehicle...

http://www.autonews.com/article/20150323/OEM04/150329962/mitsubishi-to-show-new-design-language-with-2016-outlander" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Direct link to teaser:

http://media.mitsubishicars.com/releases/mitsubishi-motors-to-conduct-world-premiere-of-2016-outlander-at-the-new-york-international-auto-show/photos/nyias-2016-outlander-teaser-images" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[GRA]

As for the rest, yes, some people will want a larger vehicle akin to an SUV, and will be less concerned about performance. Some people (like me) will want a smaller wagon/CUV with better performance (at least in the Bay Area, there's lots of RAV4s/CRVs/Foresters/Outbacks/Sportwagens etc, a lot fewer BROD-class SUVs than formerly. This is the largest PEV market in the country by %, and 2nd in total numbers to LA, so the small CUV/big SUV split here will have a major impact on Mitsubishi's total market).

My guess is more people will get a bigger car than they need - compared to a smaller car for a lot more money. Definitely the case with us.

Again, this varies by region, and the split between CUV/Wagon and SUV has changed radically in the Bay Area since 2008. I happned to be at my local hangout last night, and decided to do a wholly unscientific and statistically invalid survey, but FWIW, as I expected the lot was filled with RAV4/CRV and the next size up CUVs (Lexus/BMW etc.), with only a couple of truck-based SUVs to be found. Up until about 2009, the ratio would have been equal if not in favor of BRoD SUVs, but $4.00+ gas eliminated the majority of them, and even though my corner station is currently $3.24/gal. (down $0.20/gal in the past ten days), most people expect that it will be going up again in the not too distant future. Besides, the truck-based SUVs ride and handle like, well, trucks, and most people have realized they don't need or want that.

Also wagon is not the same as a SUV/CUV. SUVs/CUVs have a higher seating position which a lot of people like because it gives better visibility.

The dividing line between a wagon and a small CUV is a bit vague; back when they tested a bunch of small utes C&D said my 2003 Forester was right on the borderline, either being a tall wagon or a low CUV. I would have been happy with either a wagon or small CUV, depending on what specific vehicles were available. Since that generation, the Forester has gotten bigger and taller, and is now unquestionably a small CUV. If I were in the market now I'd probably opt for an Impreza hatchback, and not the XV Crosstrek which is just an Impreza on stilts; the Forester has gotten bigger than I'd prefer, and they don't even offer the Outback (which _is_ a wagon) with a stick anymore, not that that would be an issue if we were talking about a PHEV or BEV.

 

[Deleted member 770]

There are a couple coming out mid next year that will give it a strong run for the money. Unfortunately, I can't talk about them (NDA)...

If they're still that much in stealth mode, then I'd bet on delays that will push them well behind Q2 2016 in USA deliveries. But we'll see...

 

[Deleted member 770]

We'll know what it looks like next week, anyway:

Mitsubishi Motors North America will unveil the 2016 Outlander at the New York International Auto Show next week as a part of its freshened design lineup.

The 2016 re-engineered Outlander will be the first vehicle to show the Mitsubishi brand’s new design language, the company said in a statement. The automaker also released teaser photos of the vehicle...

http://www.autonews.com/article/20150323/OEM04/150329962/mitsubishi-to-show-new-design-language-with-2016-outlander" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Direct link to teaser:

http://media.mitsubishicars.com/releases/mitsubishi-motors-to-conduct-world-premiere-of-2016-outlander-at-the-new-york-international-auto-show/photos/nyias-2016-outlander-teaser-images" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Looks like we've already seen it in the previously-mentioned spy shots, though I think those were likely ICE vehicles, not PHEVs. But at least it likely means they're ready to start shipping the ICE version, so hopefully they're not falling even further behind on the PHEV (fingers crossed)...

 

[ydnas7]

The Outlander PHEV has 120kW of E-motors and 70kW of generator, so it can draw 60kw from battery plus 60kw from generator (120kW) total

The Outlander Sport PHEV http://blog.caranddriver.com/round-ii-mitsubishi-xr-phev-ii-concept-previews-next-outlander-sport/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; has 120kW of E-motor but only 10kW of generator, so it must draw 120kw from the battery.

same size battery for now, but double the power

earlier concept had 14kWh battery http://www.hybridcars.com/power-and-style-for-mitsubishi-concept-xr-phev/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

some thought for the progression of batteries

 

[ydnas7]

Which makes me consider?
Does battery progression help EVs or PHEVs more?

'large' battery PHEVs seem to be the most assisted by battery progression with a couple of IFs.

 

[cwstnsko]

Which makes me consider?
Does battery progression help EVs or PHEVs more?

'large' battery PHEVs seem to be the most assisted by battery progression with a couple of IFs.

I think the vehicles that need the most battery capacity will benefit the most from battery progression.

It seems to me that;
the sweet spot for PHEVs seems to me to be 15-30 kWh, depending on size, shape and weight of the vehicle.
the sweet spot for Metropolitan area BEVs seems to be 30-50 kWh, also depending on size, shape and weight.
batteries bigger than about 60kWh will likely be used primarily for full-range BEVs and heavier commercial vehicles.

Once an appropriate capacity for each type of vehicle is established, I think the emphasis moving forward for all segments will not be bigger capacity, but smaller, lighter form factor at lower cost. This will allow PHEV and BEV versions of existing platforms to be developed without requiring major design changes, encroaching into the interior too much or driving the cost so high that tax credits, rebates and carpool lane privileges have to be used in order to attract customers. I think people will come to see that each type of vehicle has a proper battery capacity, and the "more is always better" mentality will fade.

 

[pkulak]

The Outlander PHEV has 120kW of E-motors and 70kW of generator, so it can draw 60kw from battery plus 60kw from generator (120kW) total

The Outlander Sport PHEV http://blog.caranddriver.com/round-ii-mitsubishi-xr-phev-ii-concept-previews-next-outlander-sport/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; has 120kW of E-motor but only 10kW of generator, so it must draw 120kw from the battery.

same size battery for now, but double the power

earlier concept had 14kWh battery http://www.hybridcars.com/power-and-style-for-mitsubishi-concept-xr-phev/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

some thought for the progression of batteries

10kW generator? That's not even half of what you need to just cruise on the freeway. So, is the motor much larger than the generator so that it can power the car when it clutches in on the freeway? That would be a good idea, actually. 10kW is probably plenty for anything you need to do under 40 mph, so you can save a lot of cost by not putting in more generator than you need to.

 

[evnow]

so expect 2 PHEVs for USA
Outlander PHEV just like the global Outlander PHEV (ie AWD PHEV, same price as diesel AWD)
Outlander Sport PHEV just like global ASX (ie FWD PHEV, same price as diesel)

Unlikely.

Mitsu is hesitating to bring even one PHEV - they won't suddenly be selling 2.

 

[evnow]

Besides, the truck-based SUVs ride and handle like, well, trucks, and most people have realized they don't need or want that.

Is Outlander (or the Outlander Sport) a truck based SUV ?

I'm guessing the sales volume of wagons is 1/100th of SUV/CUV in US.

 

[TomT]

No, it is a CUV built on a car platform.

Besides, the truck-based SUVs ride and handle like, well, trucks, and most people have realized they don't need or want that.

Is Outlander (or the Outlander Sport) a truck based SUV ?

 

[evnow]

No, it is a CUV built on a car platform.

So, why does GRA think it is very different from RAV4 etc ? Because it is a little bigger than ... ?

 

[TomT]

No idea. They are both CUVs and both built on car platforms... The obvious difference is that one is an ICE or BEV and the other is a PHEV...

So, why does GRA think it is very different from RAV4 etc ? Because it is a little bigger than ... ?

 

[GRA]

So, why does GRA think it is very different from RAV4 etc ? Because it is a little bigger than ... ?

No idea. They are both CUVs and both built on car platforms... The obvious difference is that one is an ICE or BEV and the other is a PHEV...

Having re-read what I posted, I grant that I could have written more clearly, but what I meant was that the Outlander was more akin to a bigger SUV in terms of performance and especially handling than a car like an A3 e-Tron Sportback, not that it was a big, truck-based SUV. By all accounts, the Outlander's driving characteristics are generally unexciting. Those who place more value on the performance/handling end of things and who don't want/need the extra room, like me, will lean towards the A3, and those who value the extra space and are less concerned with the performance will lean towards the Outlander. Clear now?

As to the % of wagons vs. CUVs, the CUVs definitely have the advantage locally (RAV4 in particular), but then there's all the Outbacks and Impreza/XV Crosstreks running around. If you go up into the mountains, especially during ski season, there's Subies everywhere. They aren't as dominant as they were back when they were the only AWD game in town that got decent mileage and wasn't a truck, but they're still plentiful. Remember that California's car demographics are very different from the country as a whole: for the U.S. in 2014 the F-series was the best selling LDV (for the 30th year) followed by the Silverado, Ram, Camry, Accord, Corolla, Altima, CR-V, Civic, Fusion; but in California it was the Accord just edging out the Prius, then the Civic, Camry, Corolla, F-series, CR-V, Altima, Sentra, with the Silverado at #10.

 

[evnow]

Those who place more value on the performance/handling end of things and who don't want/need the extra room, like me, will lean towards the A3, and those who value the extra space and are less concerned with the performance will lean towards the Outlander. Clear now?

That is a small % of the total market. I'll grant that 5% or so of the Outlander PHEV potential market will get A3 e-tron.

Remember that California's car demographics are very different from the country as a whole....

Not sure what the point is - it is not as if wagons outsell CUV/SUV in CA. This is not a CA only forum, after all. You do need to get out of CA more often

BTW, I think Subaru sells best in Seattle.