Official Southern California Edison thread

[Boomer23]

SCE came out today and installed my new meter to enable me to change to a Time of Use (TOU) rate schedule.

I called it a "smart meter", but the installer said that it is really an "interval meter" ("an IDR"). It reads power usage or generation in 15 minute increments throughout the day. Unlike my previous digital meter that was read remotely by a street-walking meter reader, this one will need to be read directly by a meter reader in my back yard, and reset each month.

The big news is that SCE is rolling out actual smart meters sequentially throughout the region, with completion in about a year. These smart meters will be able to be read remotely by radio and we'll be able to monitor our usage/generation on a web site! Cool.

I'll be switching from a domestic tiered rate to the domestic TOU rate as soon as possible, then switching to their EV TOU rate when I get the Leaf. With today's meter change, I'll be set for an easier and faster transition to an EV TOU rate plan.

 

[smkettner]

Irvine looks like Nov & Dec 2011 for the smart meters.
Check your SCE zip code here:
http://www.sce.com/CustomerService/smartconnect/installation.htm

 

[Boomer23]

Funny, it tells me mine will be between April 2010 and Dec 2011. :lol:

Thanks for the link!

 

[smkettner]

And you thought Nissan was vague with delivery :roll:
Your zip probably covers two separate installation areas.

 

[Boomer23]

Reading an IDR meter with a solar PV system in place is different from the standard digital meter that SCE installed when I added solar to the house. I was confused by the new meter for the first day or so, but I have it figured out now, with help from an SCE meter expert, over the phone.

In case you find yourself in a similar situation, here is what I've learned.

The old digital meter showed a reading that fluctuated upward and downward depending on whether power was flowing to or from the grid. Since we make excess power in the summer, that display would show a lower number at the end of each day than the number on the day before at the same time. I expected the IDR meter to do the same. That isn't so.

The IDR meter cycles through several displays.

Display 01 shows the total cumulative power supplied by SCE to the house and this display never runs backwards, regardless of whether the meter runs backwards. In the case of a solar powered house, display 01 increases during the night and stays static during sunny days, when power is flowing to the SCE grid.

Display 71 shows the total cumulative power sent to the SCE grid from our solar PV system. This number also never runs backwards, but always grows during sunny days, and stays static during the night.

To get the net power usage that SCE sees, you need to subtract the figure in display 71 from the figure in display 01. That will give you the total cumulative net power that SCE has supplied. If the result is a negative number, then you have sent more power to SCE than they have supplied to you during the period that the meter has been in place. I take daily readings at dusk, so I have to subtract the numbers in each of the two displays from those from the day before, then subtract the display 71 result from the display 01 result to get a daily total.

SCE sends a meter reader to read your IDR meter monthly, and he does some kind of reset. Whenever he does a reset, the number in another register, display 04, increases by one. I don't know yet whether these resets zero the numbers in displays 01 and 71 .

There is one more display, number 02, that the SCE people call "demand". For my house, it has shown a reading of 1.41 kW for the first two days that I've had the meter. I was told that is the maximum kW that the house has demanded at any one time. Think of this as a "maximum meter". It only changes when a new higher amount of power is demanded.

I hope this helps.

 

[JPVLeaf]

Reading an IDR meter with a solar PV system in place is different from the standard digital meter that SCE installed when I added solar to the house. I was confused by the new meter for the first day or so, but I have it figured out now, with help from an SCE meter expert, over the phone.

In case you find yourself in a similar situation, here is what I've learned. (texted omitted)

Boomer, thanks very much for your previous posts on this topic. Both will save us a lot of homework in the near (hopefully) future.

p.s. Still not through the City yet.

 

[Boomer23]

You're very welcome.

This is a confusing new world for most of us, and the utility companies' rates and policies are not necessarily easy to understand. I've found, though, that you can usually get an answer if you ask enough of the right people.

 

[xtremeflyer]

I have been on TOU with my PV system (2.54kW) all summer. During the summer, they pay me about 26c per kW during the day and then I pay them 13c per kW that I use at night. So for every kW I generate during the day, I get to use two at night. On the winter schedule its not as much as a difference, which is a bummer as my system is not designed to generate 100% of my usage, only to keep me in the Tier 1 (now Level 1 with TOU). (This was a new build, so the builder put in the minimum required to be LEED Silver Certified)

The problem I have if I don't get the second meter is charging the EV could put me in the Level 2 rate structure which is much more expensive. The good news during the summer is that means the on-peak rates are more expensive too, so I'll make more money from my system, but I could see winter being a problem when I'm not making as much electricity and I'm not getting paid as much for it, so I'll definitely be looking into the second meter, I just need to figure out how it is going to work since my meter is 2 houses down from me (6-home townhome complex)

 

[johnr]

Boomer, thanks for sharing your experience. Did you have to pay for the meter, or does SCE cover the cost? Also do you know if the smart meter - when they do install it - will it also act as a TOU meter or would you still need the separate TOU meter?

 

[Boomer23]

John, there is no charge for the meter change. Yes, the smart meter, when it is installed, will act as a TOU meter in the same way.

For others reading this, just to be clear, this is a WHOLE HOUSE time-of-use (TOU) meter, NOT a TOU meter for the EV charging (EVSE) circuit alone. SCE is not installing TOU meters for EV charging at this time, nor have they given me any information that would lead me to think that will change soon.

 

[Boomer23]

so I'll definitely be looking into the second meter, I just need to figure out how it is going to work since my meter is 2 houses down from me (6-home townhome complex)

As far as I know, SCE isn't installing second meters for EV charging. This is so, even though their web site mentions (or recently mentioned) the option for a TOU plan with a second meter.

Do you have other information?

 

[Boomer23]

As far as I know, SCE isn't installing second meters for EV charging. This is so, even though their web site mentions (or recently mentioned) the option for a TOU plan with a second meter.

New information from SCE rep Dick Cromie at the Anaheim Drive Electric Nissan Tour today.

SCE IS installing second meters for EV charging. The previous miscommunication was due to the fact that they ARE eliminating the old dual meter adapter that wasn't able to handle the current that the EVs were pulling (or something like that).

The second meter will attach to a new small panel BEFORE the main house panel. The new second meter panel will have about 3 breaker slots available. So if one has a crowded or full main panel, this could be a solution, since the breaker(s) for the EVSE would go in the new panel and not your main panel.

To get this second meter, SCE would need to come out and inspect your main power feed to the house. Ours is an underground feed, others may be an overhead feed. They would need to see whether the main feed is adequate to supply the additional amps needed. Once they approve your main power feed, you would arrange to have an electrician install the new small panel for the second meter. SCE can tell them what part is needed. Then SCE will install the power feed and the new meter to the new panel.

I have solar PV and he wasn't sure how the second meter would interact with the solar, my net metering agreement, or my new TOU whole house rate plan. He said to call the Plug In Vehicle SCE help line and tell them that I have a complex situation and I need them to escalate the call to the second level of customer service. Dick said that he is the third level.

I'm still not sure whether the TOU Whole House or the TOU EV-1 rate plan will be best for me, and I need to decide this before I decide on the second meter option because the second meter only works with rate plan TOU EV-1.

The rates Dick had on a paper at the show were:

(rates are in cents per kWh)
TOU-D-TEV
On Peak hours 10AM to 6PM
Super Off Peak hours Midnight to 6AM
Off Peak hours: all other hours
Summer on-Peak, Tier 1: 19, Tier 2: 55
Summer off-peak, Tier 1: 13, Tier 2: 25
Summer Super off-peak: Tier 1: 10, Tier 2: 16
Winter on-peak, Tier 1: 13, Tier 2: 26
Winter off-peak, Tier 1: 12, Tier 2: 23
Winter super off-peak, Tier 1: 10, Tier 2: 16

TOU-EV-1 (second meter)
On Peak hours Noon to 9PM
Off Peak hours 9PM to Noon
Summer on-peak: 27
Summer off-peak: 11
Winter on peak: 21
Winter off-peak: 11

 

[smkettner]

I probably need to just call Edison but here is my question if you know. Boomer shows Just two rates. What if you get the separate meter and put the home on TOU? The EV is set with a separate meter but does EV charging get included to bump you to tier 2 on the regular TOU home billing? Or how does the standard TOU compare to EV-TOU?

 

[xtremeflyer]

That is interesting information. I am also on TOU-D-T-APSE and one of the things I'm worried about is being bumped to level two for all the different peak times when I get the EV. They keep advertising how "cheap" the off-peak and super off-peaks are, but if you get bumped to Level 2 during the on-peak or evening off-peak times, it is going to cost you more than they are advertising. It is really hard to calculate how much it'll cost you per kW.

The second meter "should" keep you from going into Level 2 on your main meter. I believe that is the purpose of having the second meter. Otherwise, there is no point in spending time, money and effort putting in the second meter.

In reality, I think it would be easier if SCE would just give a higher allowance for houses with EV. Kind of like they do for the medical allowance. It would be cheaper than having a second meter and I think people would understand. Or just allow the Super Off-peak to not count towards the monthly allowance.

 

[TRONZ]

I am just starting to explore the second meter option and called SCE yesterday. I was told by SCE that they will install the second (dedicated EV) meter free of charge. Your EVSE installation must be complete and passed Inspection before they can schedule your work. SCE claims it takes about 5 business days to come out and install the meter.

 

[garygid]

Are you supposed to install the EVSE as a breaker in (and circuit from) your existing load panel, but just run that circuit through an added "Meter" box where they will "mount" their meter on the meter-ring?

 

[TRONZ]

The second meter will attach to a new small panel BEFORE the main house panel. The new second meter panel will have about 3 breaker slots available. So if one has a crowded or full main panel, this could be a solution, since the breaker(s) for the EVSE would go in the new panel and not your main panel.

Ya, know the dedicated meter is really sounding like the way to go for us since the big cost (according to AV) was the need for a second panel and running conduit from it (everywhere) to the garage. I mean seriously, if I drilled a hole through our garage wall and straight into the electrical "doghouse" and fed a line (#8 wire I think?), my run would be about 2' to a new meter (with it's own breaker/panel). :? Do you need an electrical contractor to drill a hole in a wall and feed a wire through???

 

[tbleakne]

I have been on TOU with my PV system (2.54kW) all summer. During the summer, they pay me about 26c per kW during the day and then I pay them 13c per kW that I use at night. So for every kW I generate during the day, I get to use two at night. On the winter schedule its not as much as a difference, which is a bummer as my system is not designed to generate 100% of my usage, only to keep me in the Tier 1 (now Level 1 with TOU). (This was a new build, so the builder put in the minimum required to be LEED Silver Certified)

The problem I have if I don't get the second meter is charging the EV could put me in the Level 2 rate structure which is much more expensive. The good news during the summer is that means the on-peak rates are more expensive too, so I'll make more money from my system, but I could see winter being a problem when I'm not making as much electricity and I'm not getting paid as much for it, so I'll definitely be looking into the second meter, I just need to figure out how it is going to work since my meter is 2 houses down from me (6-home townhome complex)

You are saying they credit you at 26c per kwh during the day and charge you 13c per kwh at night.
This conflicts with what I was told over several calls to the SCE call center. I admit I have found it very frustrating to get accurate info from SCE. My understanding, derived from these detailed conversations, is as follows:
If you generate more than you use during a particular TOU charging period, the excess credit of kwh, not $, is rolled forward to apply to the NEXT TOU period. Your excess during the daytime peak will be applied and credited against your usage that evening, which means the value of that credit would be applied at the evening off-peak rate, not the on-peak rate. Excess power generated in the morning, before the peak rate period starts, would work the opposite way, in your favor, because the excess kwh would be credited against your usage during the afternoon at the peak rate.

If you are sure that my understanding is incorrect, based upon your direct experience, I will accept your answer. I had a very careful and detailed discussion with the SCE person, and if what she told me is wrong, I don't know how to get accurate information from them. I would appreciate any guidance you can give me about how to contact a knowledgeable SCE person about these questions.

 

[Boomer23]

If you are sure that my understanding is incorrect, based upon your direct experience, I will accept your answer. I had a very careful and detailed discussion with the SCE person, and if what she told me is wrong, I don't know how to get accurate information from them. I would appreciate any guidance you can give me about how to contact a knowledgeable SCE person about these questions.

Tom, I can't speak from experience, since I feel the same as you do about getting a reliable answer from SCE's various experts, but I was told by the SCE guy ("Bob" I think) at the Santa Monica event that SCE has a whole Solar Group who can answer questions about generation payments to customers.

I was also told by Dick Cromie at the Anaheim event that he is "Tier 3" of their customer service expertise on the EV side. He suggested that if I have a complex EVSE installation question, such as installation of a second meter, I should ask the Tier 1 people who answer the phone on the EV line to escalate me to the Tier 2 people. He also said that though he knows a lot about second meters and how to get them installed and the rate structures, he doesn't know about how this will tie in to a solar PV system, or net metering.

It sounds to me like they have various experts, some expert on special meters, some expert on solar PV systems, some who are becoming expert on EV charging options, and some who know what the rates really are, but there are few experts who are expert on several of these issues at the same time. Since two major programs are only just now really beginning to ramp up, the new law requiring repayment of excess generation to residential solar system owners and the EV ramp up, the knowledge gaps between these various guys are starting to show. For example, Bob told me that a second meter for EV charging is attached AFTER the main panel. Dick told me that it is BEFORE the main panel. I believe Dick because he was more detailed and was able to draw diagrams of the connections.

I think that our only hope is to escalate the questions to higher levels until we get a customer service manager who will give us his name and stand behind the information. SCE wants to make this easy for us, but they need to read this thread to get an idea of where some of even the better informed future LEAF owners stand in their ability to make a clear plan.

 

[garygid]

The Three Possible 2nd "EV" Meter Connection Methods:

1. Connect THROUGH a breaker in the Main Service/Load Panel. Is this the "AFTER Panel" that SCE described?

2. Connect BETWEEN (on the HOUSE side of) the existing Meter and the Service/Breaker/Load Panel. Is this the "BEFORE" option they were talking about?

3. Connect to the "hot" House Feed BEFORE (on the GRID side of) the existing Meter. Or, is THIS the "BEFORE" option?

Service Upgrade:
All three methods add additional LOAD to the service-in lines, which MIGHT require a service upgrade. If underground, that can be expensive.

Method #3 is the only one where the two meters are independent (can be billed totally separately). In the other cases (#1 and #2), the EV charging current goes through both meters, and is "counted" twice, requiring some form of "subtraction" for correct billing.

Method #1 requires the existing breaker panel to be able to handle the extra load, but the others do not.

#3 requires the PU to turn off (or disconnect) the service "at the street" so that they can wire the "not-hot" feed wires to the 2nd Meter. Not clear what the division of labor is for that part of the wiring.