Official Southern California Edison thread

[garygid]

Handling the billing (credit) for over-generation during one day's (or one billing period's) TOU periods is the main confusing part of PV usage.

Presumably the Peak, Off-Peak, and Low-Night usages are accumulated separately, minute by minute and day by day, for the whole billing period, within the meter. Then the meter is only read once for bilking purposes.

If all the P, OP, and LN usages are not negative (as accumulated for the whole billing period), the calculations are fairly "easy", and almost understandable, once one has the correct "Total Rates" for the Tariff being used.

But, with over-generation, the P (or OP, & rarely LN) "usage" will be negative. How is that handled and credited?

1. The kWh excess in each TOU category can be just carried forward to the next month and a settle-up billing done at the year end, if any "excess" still exists. But, months without "excess" are billed normally.

2. The kWh excess in one category can be used to offset (reduce) usage in the other TOU categories. This way, P generation can offset EV charging, but with no real benefit for the "Peak" generation.

3. Cash Credit can be calculated, often at the lowest tier rate of the generation period, and the "cash" applied to pay your bill. The problem comes that the credit is usually only for the "energy" (E) part of the billing, and not for the "distribution" (D) part. So, getting a credit for "E", but paying for "D+E", one can end up getting credit for LESS (or MORE) than one kWh used later, or in another TOU time slot. It can be as bad as "generate 4 kWh to buy one", or as good as "generate 1 kWh to buy five".

The exact rates and division of the costs between "E" and "D" are required to determine the best strategy.

If you can get 24¢ "E" credit per kWh for the month's over-generation at Peak, and apply that to 6¢ "D+E" charges at Late Night, you get 4 for one, a VERY good deal.

However, if you get only 9¢ cedi for "E" and pay a minimum of 13¢ for "D+E", you are better off trying to get 1-for-1 by running the meter backwards.

Yes, since the bilking methods do NOT appear to be "public" (or even well known within the PU), this over-generation topic seems to be a "great mystery". :roll:

 

[xtremeflyer]

Your rate: TOU-D-T-APSE
Billing period: Aug 12 '10 to Sep 14 '10 (33 days)

Delivery Charges
Energy-Summer On Peak
Lvl 1 (1% to 130% of bsln) -130 kWh x -$0.03224 = $4.19
Energy-Summer Off Peak
Lvl 1 (1% to 130% of bsln) 242 kWh x $0.05251 = $12.71
DWR bond charge 112 kWh x $0.00515 = $0.58
A/C cycling discount = -$0.50

Generation Charges
DWR
Energy-Summer On Peak
Lvl 1 (1% to 130% of bsln) -33 kWh x $0.03763 = -$1.24
Energy-Summer Off Peak
Lvl 1 (1% to 130% of bsln) 62 kWh x $0.03762 = $2.33
SCE
Energy-Summer On Peak
Lvl 1 (1% to 130% of bsln) -97 kWh x $0.29541 = -$28.65
Energy-Summer Off Peak
Lvl 1 (1% to 130% of bsln) 180 kWh x $0.07510 = $13.52

Energy Charge Total $2.94

I posted this in another topic, but it makes more sense here. As you can see, the negative numbers during on peak and the positive number off-peak. They do not overlap. Two things that are weird, yes, I pay SCE 3c kW to deliver them my energy, and the DWR (the renewable resources) is about 25%, but I have to count my energy towards that as well, which doesn't really make sense.

On average (for this bill), they paid me 19.3c kW during the on-peak time for my net generation and I paid them 12.3c for the electricity during the off-peak time. So not quite the 26c and the 13c I quoted earlier, but close. Now, of course, this is only for the summer. During the winter, the numbers are much closer and there's not as much benefit to the TOU.

BTW, when you are on Net Metering, you get monthly bills, but you only pay them annually. There have been a couple of months that I went negative because we were on vacation. That negative amount was credited towards the annual bill. I've been told that if I'm negative for the entire year, I lose that amount, although that is supposed to change. Since my solar was only designed to generate half my electricity, that tends to never happen.

 

[tbleakne]

Thank you for re-posting your actual bill. This is very helpful. It seems clear from this that you are, in fact, being credited in $$, not just kwh as I was told, for your net positive generation during a particular TOU period. It appears that they are keeping track of your net generation separately for each TOU period. In my opinion this is the fairest way to do it. It is not how it was explained to me, but I was talking to a level-1 call center person.

I highlight key parts below, with my comments within <<<<<< >>>>>>>

Your rate: TOU-D-T-APSE
Billing period: Aug 12 '10 to Sep 14 '10 (33 days)

<<<< >>>>>

A/C cycling discount = -$0.50

Generation Charges
DWR
Energy-Summer On Peak
Lvl 1 (1% to 130% of bsln) -33 kWh x $0.03763 = -$1.24
Energy-Summer Off Peak
Lvl 1 (1% to 130% of bsln) 62 kWh x $0.03762 = $2.33
SCE
Energy-Summer On Peak
Lvl 1 (1% to 130% of bsln) -97 kWh x $0.29541 = -$28.65
<<<<<<<<< ^^^^^^^
Here is your payoff, being credited in $$ at 29 cents/kwh. Great.
>>>>>>>>>

Energy-Summer Off Peak
Lvl 1 (1% to 130% of bsln) 180 kWh x $0.07510 = $13.52

Energy Charge Total $2.94

<<<<<< >>>>>>>>>>>>

BTW, when you are on Net Metering, you get monthly bills, but you only pay them annually. There have been a couple of months that I went negative because we were on vacation. That negative amount was credited towards the annual bill.

I've been told that if I'm negative for the entire year, I lose that amount, although that is supposed to change.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
This is no longer true. Last Spring the rules changed, and there was an announcement that you would be paid for any excess at the end of the annual Net Metering "settle-up" period. However, as of last month, the SCE person (again, level-1) stated that the price you would be paid for any positive residual excess kwh was still being negotiated.

However, since your monthly accounting is in terms of $$, not kwh, the most straight-forward way for the end-of-year settlement would be to simply pay you the net $$. Does anyone have more recent information ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Since my solar was only designed to generate half my electricity, that tends to never happen.

One more question: Since you have both Net Metering and TOU, it seems to me that your meter must be both TOU and bi-directional. Is this correct ?
I just visited friends who have Net Metering but no TOU, and they have just a mechanical meter that spins backward. Their Net Metering statement shows only net usage.

Thanks again for clearing this up.

 

[xtremeflyer]

One more question: Since you have both Net Metering and TOU, it seems to me that your meter must be both TOU and bi-directional. Is this correct ?
I just visited friends who have Net Metering but no TOU, and they have just a mechanical meter that spins backward. Their Net Metering statement shows only net usage.

Thanks again for clearing this up.

I used to just have the mechanical meter that spins backward. When I called at the beginning of the summer and asked to be put on TOU, they came out and installed the smart meter within a week and now have the digital meter that just counts upwards in the different categories (ie generation, usage, and of course the different on-peak and off-peak)

 

[tbleakne]

I probably need to just call Edison but here is my question if you know. Boomer shows Just two rates. What if you get the separate meter and put the home on TOU? The EV is set with a separate meter but does EV charging get included to bump you to tier 2 on the regular TOU home billing? Or how does the standard TOU compare to EV-TOU?

My understanding is that with the EV you must choose one of 4 tariff plans:
1. It can stay with regular (non TOU) for everything, including the car. The car will tend to kick you into a higher tier.
2. It can be whole-house TOU (TOU-D-TEV). Physically the car charging port is just another circuit on your regular panel and meter. You get the benefit of charging the car at night at the super-off-peak rate, but on-peak rates for your house are high. If you use substantial A/C during the afternoon without solar panels, this could be a bad option, but if you have solar with little or no A/C, this can be good.
3. It can be TOU-EV1, with the second meter installed. In this case the car will NOT affect the billing for your house on the primary meter. My understanding is that your house is NOT on TOU with this option, so it is better if you do have substantial on-peak usage. The second meter is discussed in other posts.
4. You could also choose tariff TOU-D-T, which makes no special accommodation for EVs, but I don't think this would have any benefit over option 2.

You can compare the two TOU EV tariffs on SCE's web site here:
http://www.sce.com/residential/rates/electric-vehicles.htm

Beware, these tariff documents are a little messy. They have distribution and generation broken out separately, and there is always a mix of SCE and DWR generation. Your regular bill will show what the current mix of SCE/DWR is. It varies somewhat from month-to-month. DWR rates are not tiered; SCE rates are.

 

[tbleakne]

This is interesting. You are fortunate to have talked to a higher level rep than the one who was there during my test-drive.

New information from SCE rep Dick Cromie at the Anaheim Drive Electric Nissan Tour today.

SCE IS installing second meters for EV charging.

The second meter will attach to a new small panel BEFORE the main house panel.

<<<<<< >>>>>>>>>

I am glad they have resurrected the second-meter option, but I do feel jerked around by SCE. Here is where I stand:

Near the end of June SCE raised the off-peak rate for TOU-EV1 from 8 cents to 12 cents, as I recall. Up to September I had planned for the second meter as part of a major electrical upgrade in order to avoid having the car push me into tier 3 for most months. My electrician bought materials based upon that plan. At the last minute before he began work, SCE canceled the second-meter option as it was then envisioned. He completed the upgrade without provision for the second meter. I now have a new prime sub-panel in my garage right next to where the EV charging port will be. Everything is ready to connect the port to the panel right next to it, which is supplied by the main meter.

As I understand it, the old second-meter option was somehow attached to your main meter/panel; no new panel was needed. To switch back to the second meter option now in its new form, I would need to install a small panel next to the main outside service panel. I would also have to run another conduit for the EV dedicated circuit about 20' into the garage. This would be somewhat messy.

For several weeks my new plan is to avoid tier 3 by adding solar. Of course solar is much more expensive than any second meter installation, but it can help keep my A/C costs down as well. I share with others a desire to be rewarded for charging the car late at night when the grid is lightly loaded, but the off-peak and super-off-peak rates are really about the same as tier-1 on the non-TOU plan. If you can get down to tier-1 with solar for most months, it seems to me that the TOU-EV1 offers little additional benefit. However, if you are driving the car a lot, perhaps 50 miles/day (~ 360 kwh/month), then in the winter months when there is less solar you might end up in tier 3 without the second meter.

There is one more option that I feel should get more attention. This new SCE 2nd-meter option seems kind of crude to me - not real 21st century. Boomer23's post on the original Santa Monica tour thread has this:

EV-Charge America . . ., their EVSE is more impressive than AV's, with a built-in wattage use meter and telematics, as well as RF-chip interactivity. So Cal Edison and I think DWP are testing their EVSEs for accuracy to see if they'll accept their usage meter for metering kWh for EV charging.

The Blink from ECOtolity also has such a meter. If these meters get approved, you would not need either the extra panel or the extra conduit, because their readings would be transmitted wirelessly. Of course it could be many moons before all the software talks together. Detailed discussion on this point can move to the charging port thread.

 

[xtremeflyer]

I know this won't help completely explain TOU-EV rates, but here is what Whole House TOU looks like, with Summer, Winter, Level 1 and Level 2 charges. It also has a summer savings program discount on it. I've also posted my generation and usage for the same time period. I'm still trying to do my own analysis to see if its really worth it to get the second meter or not, I'm in a townhome and my house is the third one in, so I don't know how a second meter would be connected (or if it'd fit in the maintenance closet). Bummer that I couldn't make it to the tag up last weekend at HTB since it sounds like that was a good part of the discussion.

 

[Boomer23]

I know this won't help completely explain TOU-EV rates, but here is what Whole House TOU looks like, with Summer, Winter, Level 1 and Level 2 charges. It also has a summer savings program discount on it. I've also posted my generation and usage for the same time period.

This is very useful, thanks for posting it. It looks like you still have charges of about $33, which is then reduced by your A/C cycling discount. I'm assuming that you ran your A/C a fair amount. I'm also glad to see that they charged you negative dollars for the delivery charges when you were generating (i.e. negative) kWh. The first listed entry of -41 kWh X -.03224 = a positive $1.32 is a bit weird (a double negative equals a positive charge). I realize that the math makes sense, it's just weird that they are charging you a positive amount for some of the kWh you are generating.

By the way, what size is your solar PV installation, preferably in installed DC watts? Mine is 5,160 Watts (24 panels of 215 Watts each).

 

[Boomer23]

A quick post to sum up where I am with SCE and my possible AV EVSE install at this point. I'll post more detail in another post.

* I requested that SCE evaluate which rate schedule will work best for me, whole house TOU or two-meter TOU by looking at my usage history. An analyst responded today that they couldn't give an answer because I have solar power and that means that they can't see my total usage picture. So I'm going to have to do the calculations myself. I'm thinking that the two-meter solution will be the best. At least I got contact information for the analyst so that I can consult him on details.

* I asked SCE's solar group about how they determine payment and fees for a TOU rate schedule when my solar PV system makes more power than I use in most months. The answer pretty much reflects the info that xtremeflyer has been sharing.

* I told AV through Nissan's EV group that I want my installation quote to reflect the addition of a TOU second meter panel as an option, in place of the sub-panel that is currently in the quote. AV called back and left a message saying that they are currently in talks with SCE on "how they would have that connected" and they will get back to me, but that it may take "longer than usual".

So I guess that I'm going with the second meter TOU plan, but that I'm waiting to see how AV changes their quote to include the second meter panel. I may ask my independent electrician to give me an estimate on that option.

 

[Boomer23]

Here is the information that was sent to me today from SCE's Customer Generation group.

My questions:

SCE technicians came and installed an IDR meter about a week ago to allow
me to change to a TOU Domestic plan in my next billing period, which should
be changing about now. I think the new rate plan is TOU-D-T.

My solar system makes more power than I use. I currently project that I'll
make 2,000 kWh more than I use in the next year.

My question is: On a TOU plan with Net Metering such as I am going to be
on, and with SCE going to be paying customers for excess generation, will I
be paid more per kWh for the On-Peak kWh that I'm generating than I will be
charged for the Off-Peak kWh that I'll be pulling from SCE? That is, on a
sunny day when I make more net power than I use for the day, will my net
charge be a negative dollar amount? And if so, will these negative daily
charges be added and combined with other net negative and net positive
charges to come up with a payment that SCE will give me for my generation
year? Or does SCE just sum the kWh, either negative or positive for each
day, and then determine an amount to pay me at the end of my Net Metering
Year based on the total net excess kWh generated?

Also, please let me know the payment rates that SCE will use to determine
these payments.

SCE response:

Customers, such as yourself, that have interconnected a renewable
generator under SCEs Net Energy Metering Program (NEM) are credited
monthly for the excess generation based on the rate that the account is
established. That is, as captured in your example below when you
generate excess power during the on peak period of the TOU rate the kWhs
will be credited on your bill at the same rate you would have paid for
using the power. SCE will provide you with a monthly bill that will
provide the 'net' kWh usage and energy amount ($$) charges (+/-) for
that billing period.

AB 920 which became law 10/2010, expanded the NEM Program so that at the
end of your 12-month NEM relevant period SCE compensates (rate pending)
customers that still have excess power that can be used to offset
previous usage.

The rate for compensation under the AB 920 bill will be available by
1/1/2011, at which time SCE will communicate the information to our NEM
customers

For additional information please visit SCEs website at:
http://www.sce.com/customergeneration/nem-ab920?from=ab920


If you have any questions, please reply to [email protected].

 

[xtremeflyer]

I'm assuming that you ran your A/C a fair amount.

Yes, we did, as you may recall, this was the month that it got to 113 deg, you can see that in my generation/usage graph the week or so that we just had the A/C on all the time. This isn't normal for us actually.

The first listed entry of -41 kWh X -.03224 = a positive $1.32 is a bit weird (a double negative equals a positive charge). I realize that the math makes sense, it's just weird that they are charging you a positive amount for some of the kWh you are generating.

Gary pointed this out last time I posted here. This actually "kind of" makes sense. This is a delivery charge and there is a cost involved for SCE to have that power delivered from my house to the grid, so in that sense, I can understand the concept.

What I still don't understand is how they determine the percentage of allowance for on peak and off peak, since all of my on peak is negative.

By the way, what size is your solar PV installation, preferably in installed DC watts? Mine is 5,160 Watts (24 panels of 215 Watts each).

12 panels of 215 watts. The entire community is equipt with solar installed by the builder and SunPower. The system was not designed for us to have no electric bill, but was designed to keep us within Tier 1
rates since they are so cheap and the payoff to generate that part of the electricity would have been a lot longer. Now that I am looking at the Leaf, I think I can fit 6 more panels on the roof, but I have to decide if the costs are worth it.

 

[tbleakne]

The first listed entry of -41 kWh X -.03224 = a positive $1.32 is a bit weird (a double negative equals a positive charge). I realize that the math makes sense, it's just weird that they are charging you a positive amount for some of the kWh you are generating.

Gary pointed this out last time I posted here. This actually "kind of" makes sense. This is a delivery charge and there is a cost involved for SCE to have that power delivered from my house to the grid, so in that sense, I can understand the concept.

What I still don't understand is how they determine the percentage of allowance for on peak and off peak, since all of my on peak is negative.

These are excellent observations. The way I look at it, if you generate more than you consume in a given TOU period over the billing month, you are credited at the full generation rate, but the distribution rate is slightly negative to reflect a charge for "parking" the excess in the grid. In a subsequent month when you might use more than you produce due to A/C in a hot spell, you can pull that excess back from the grid and recover that distribution charge.

I agree how they determine the % allowance for on and off peak is confusing. I put this very question to Glenn Picus, a higher-level SCE guy whose number I got from the blond SCE lady at the test-drive event. I read him the paragraph I quote below and he said "I will get back to you."

Here is my interpretation:

Above all else you want to avoid getting into level 2 for on-peak TOU, because then you get hit with the high $.32 delivery rate in addition to the high generation rate. My latest calculations, however, indicate that it is actually pretty easy to avoid tier-2. If things work the way I interpret the paragraph below, you could theoretically be in level 2 during on-peak, and be in level 1 off-peak. Each TOU period is separate, so if you have negative usage for on-peak for the month, you are in "level 0" for on-peak for that month - no worries. For TOU periods that are positive, the baseline allocation is split proportionately. This means that charging the car in super off-peak is good, because it reduces the allocation % for on-peak. Your net usage during on-peak = (total-usage)*(% peak allocation), but solar is mostly on-peak except for the portion before 10 am. My roof faces West, so I neglected that part. Therefore, if the expression
(% allocation) * (total-usage - baseline) - solar
is negative, and I will avoid the high delivery rate of level 2 for on-peak.

Of course I am not sure all this is right.

Here is the quote from "sheet 9" of TOU-D-TEV:

"In order to determine the allocation of baseline kWh to each Time-of-Use (TOU) period, the
customer’s baseline allowance for the billing period is first allocated to each TOU period
based on the ratio of the metered kWh in the TOU period to the total metered seasonal kWhs
in the billing cycle. TOU kWhs are then assigned to each tier by applying the existing tiering
parameters. Baseline allowance for distribution to TOU periods is the minimum of the
standard allocation as set forth in Preliminary Statement, Part H, or total metered kWh for the
billing cycle."

 

[Boomer23]

Here's a little update on where I'm "at" with my EVSE wiring plan and SCE.

I'm now on rate schedule TOU-D-T so that I can take advantage of the higher payback rates for my solar-produced power during peak hours. I'm waiting for my first monthly bill so that I can examine how SCE will account for these kWh.

I now, finally after some email back and forth with an analyst at SCE, understand that if I choose a second meter for EV charging on rate schedule TOU-EV-1, my household power use remains on whatever rate schedule I choose for the household power, and my EV charging ONLY is charged to TOU-EV-1. That probably should have been obvious, but sometimes I'm dense.

After some calculations that are probably inaccurate due to the complexities of calculating "baseline" usage on a TOU plan, it appears that I'll do quite a bit better on a two meter plan using TOU-EV-1 than I would on a whole house TOU plan for EV charging, TOU-D-TEV. That difference probably amounts to several hundred dollars a year better. In fact, if I'm correct, being paid back more for power produced during peak hours will allow me to drive cost-free for more miles than I had previously thought. I should be able to drive about 8,000 solar powered miles a year on the 2,000 kWh extra that I produce, but due to the higher payback during peak hours, I'll probably be able to drive COST-free for perhaps 10,000 miles a year.

Regarding my wiring setup, I have a physical space issue that probably precludes installing a standard meter panel for the second meter. I have only about 12 inches width of stucco wall between my main panel and a sliding door frame. So I've asked the SCE analyst if I can use a separate meter socket and a sub-panel for this application, since they will take up less horizontal space. I was told that a local planner will call me to advise on this.

Meanwhile, I have told AV that their quote needs to include a second meter option. They responded by saying that they are in talks with SCE and it isn't yet clear how they will be able to handle second meters with SCE. So they are stalled for now.

If I get approval from SCE to use the narrower meter socket and sub-panel, I may go with my independent electrician and select another EVSE. If AV moves forward with a quote for a second meter, I may still go with them.

 

[1051]

I had SCE do a rate analysis back on 8/31 and ordered a TOU-D-TEV meter and it was installed today, so plan on a 60 day cycle. I do not have solar and have changed my pool equipment to run from 12am to 4am. I am waiting to see what level 2 240v chargers are available after the first of the year and the pricing. This meter reads my different price tears during the day then goes to the TEV price from 12-6am.

"Time-of-Use Domestic Tiered Electric Vehicle Charging (TOU-D-TEV): Schedule TOU-D-TEV is designed for residential customers who combine lighting, heating, cooking and power (in a single family accommodation) with charging electric vehicle(s) on a single meter. Under Schedule TOU-D-TEV, customers may receive substantial savings if they charge their electric vehicle(s) during super off-peak hours. On-peak, off-peak and super off-peak hours for TOU-D-TEV are as follows:
On-Peak: 10:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. weekdays – all year, except holidays
Super Off-Peak: Midnight to 6:00 a.m. – all year, every day
Off-Peak: All other hours – all year, every day"

http://www.sce.com/CustomerConnection/
http://www.sce.com/CustomerService/billing/tiered-rates/understanding-tiered-rates.htm?from=billhelper

 

[smkettner]

1051, I think I will do the same. I am not excited about the additional box outside for a second meter and panel.
I might even leave as is until I get my smart meter installed Dec 2011. Then I would have a great comparison year to year.

 

[tbleakne]

I'm now on rate schedule TOU-D-T so that I can take advantage of the higher payback rates for my solar-produced power during peak hours. I'm waiting for my first monthly bill so that I can examine how SCE will account for these kWh.

>>>>>>>>>

After some calculations that are probably inaccurate due to the complexities of calculating "baseline" usage on a TOU plan, it appears that I'll do quite a bit better on a two meter plan using TOU-EV-1 than I would on a whole house TOU plan for EV charging, TOU-D-TEV. That difference probably amounts to several hundred dollars a year better. In fact, if I'm correct, being paid back more for power produced during peak hours will allow me to drive cost-free for more miles than I had previously thought. I should be able to drive about 8,000 solar powered miles a year on the 2,000 kWh extra that I produce, but due to the higher payback during peak hours, I'll probably be able to drive COST-free for perhaps 10,000 miles a year.

Regarding my wiring setup, I have a physical space issue that probably precludes installing a standard meter panel for the second meter. I have only about 12 inches width of stucco wall between my main panel and a sliding door frame. So I've asked the SCE analyst if I can use a separate meter socket and a sub-panel for this application, since they will take up less horizontal space. I was told that a local planner will call me to advise on this.

I am very interested in the details of how you have determined that the two-meter option will pay you more that just one whole-house meter on TOU-D-TEV. If you didn't have solar, I would understand completely that two meters would be best, but with solar always making you a net generator during peak TOU, I would think the savings would be minimal.

If you are driving the car 10K miles/year, that is about 2.5Kwh/year for the car, about 7 kwh/day, or 208 kwh more per month for charging the car. Does the savings somehow arise because this load on the house meter would push you further into the level-2 tier of TOU-D-TEV ? As I posted earlier, I believe the tier calculation is separate for each TOU. Since you are always negative during peak TOU, you should never be in tier 2 for peak TOU. As long as the car is being charged during super-off-peak, it has its own TOU period. I see that the delivery charge for Super-off-peak TOU jumps from 6 cents/kwh tier-1 to almost 12 cents/kwh for tier-2. Do you figure the 10K miles will kick you into tier-2 for your car most of the time ? Is that where the savings arises for a second meter?

Does the second meter give you a whole separate baseline budget, or is there one baseline budget for both meters ?

I am really hoping to make TOU-D-TEV pay for me with my new 3 KW solar array that I have ordered, so I need to really understand this myself. Tier-2 for my car charging would be a definite disappointment. I estimate I might need 120 kwh/month for my car.

Of course the TOU plan is a risk because I don't have hard data on my actual TOU consumption throughout the year. What would be very nice is if Edison would be willing to install a TOU meter for me, and showing me my TOU usage on my bill, WITHOUT actually putting me on TOU billing. I have been told that SCE is actually going to do this next year for everybody who has a smart meter, but it would be nice if they would do it for me now. Any opinion of how likely I could get SCE do to this? When pigs fly ?

If you will be at the Nov 13 breakfast this Saturday, perhaps we can discuss this there.

In regards to your space issue for the panel for the second meter panel, I believe you are very fortunate to have underground utility feed. As I believe I posted elsewhere, I was told that for overhead utility power like I have I would be required to install not just a panel and meter, but a complete separate feed through the roof as well, creating a very messy double configuration.

 

[Boomer23]

I got some new information today. After speaking with an SCE analyst for several weeks by email, I was able to speak to an SCE planner on the phone today.

He told me that SCE no longer allows the second meter to be installed in a small "meter socket" for EV charging because the meter sockets were not handling the charging voltages well. This apparently is the source of the information we heard a few months ago that second meters were being discontinued. In fact, SCE is trying to get current customers who have the meter sockets to de-install them. They do allow a second meter installed in a standard meter panel or in a dual meter main panel.

With the space limitation that I have next to my main meter panel, I don't have room for a second panel. So my choices are to change out my main panel to one with two meter sockets, or to go with a single meter rate schedule. There is a slight possibility that they would allow a second meter panel to be installed 20 feet away on the same wall, where there is enough space for a full panel. But I'd have to get special permission for that.

It would be less costly by at least $2,000 to stick with my existing single meter panel and go with AV's solution of adding a load center for the EVSE connection. I may just relax and go with that choice. It's possible, though, that AV's design might not pass inspection due to load limitations, and I'd need to change out my meter anyway.

To answer tbleakne's question, yes my preference for a two meter solution was based on concerns that the TOU-D-TEV single mater rate is tiered, while the TOU-EV-1 rate is not. I'm afraid that my charging usage would go into the second or higher tiers for some of the charging time period, taking me from 10 cents to 16 cents per kWh or higher.

The planner also cast doubt on whether SCE will actually pay us for our extra power production during on peak hours. He seemed to think that we'd need to be larger power producers to be paid for that power.

 

[mwalsh]

The planner also cast doubt on whether SCE will actually pay us for our extra power production during on peak hours. He seemed to think that we'd need to be larger power producers to be paid for that power.

Huh? I thought the utility was mandated to pay everyone for excess production as of January? I'll have to find the details again, but I'm pretty sure that's the case.

Edit: AB920 - http://www.sce.com/customergeneration/nem-ab920.htm

 

[Boomer23]

I know, I'm becoming convinced that NOBODY really knows the truth about this. I think we need the Oracle from The Matrix. I do know that you can call SCE fifteen times a day and get fifteen different answers, depending on which office you call.

 

[mwalsh]

I know, I'm becoming convinced that NOBODY really knows the truth about this. I think we need the Oracle from The Matrix. I do know that you can call SCE fifteen times a day and get fifteen different answers, depending on which office you call.

AB920 - http://www.sce.com/customergeneration/nem-ab920.htm