Official Tesla Model 3 thread

[webb14leafs]

I disagree with the "Most" comment. Half or more of the items on that list apply within the first 60,000 miles.

Maintenance and component/part failures are two different things.

None of the items on your list are scheduled maintenance items for a Nissan within the first 100k miles

Transmission Fluid
Starter
Alternator
Radiator Fluid
Radiator
Spark Plugs
Fuel Pump
Fuel Injector
Fuel Filter
Fuel Tank
Fuel Cleaning
belts/chains
fans
A variety of gaskets, seals and hoses
A variety of engine monitoring sensors

Maybe fore a Nissan, but many cars will need a Transmission Fluid exchange, Spark Plug replacement, Radiator Fluid, and Fuel System cleanout at either their 60,000 mile or 100,000 mile service, with the coolant needing replaced well before than and more frequently than the others. The serpantine belt (if applicable) will also need replaced. The starter will likely fail between 60,000 and 100,000 miles. Every car I've owned has had an O2 sensor go out well before 100,000 miles. This isn't even mentioning the random, obscure hose or seal that might go out on a domestic car.

Not sure why you're arguing basic facts.

 

[webb14leafs]

You're right that there are some maintenance costs for EVs that we simply don't know about yet.

I will say this (and attempt to bring the discussion back on topic)...my first LEAF had to have its reduction gear assembly replaced. I had been (and continue to) tout that EVs are far cheaper vehicles to maintain and repair and the savings do add up (even if only marginally in the case of an expensive Model S or X). Between the almost complete lack of regular maintenance items and the fact that the EV drivetrain is far simpler than an ICE, it should be quite a bit cheaper to own an EV.

But wow, I was quite disappointed at my experience with the Nissan. For a few reasons. First, supposedly EVs don't have a transmission. Well technically true, but it does have this reduction gear, and boy was it expensive! It was a $2600 repair! We were able to get my son's ICE transmission rebuilt for less than half that amount. Second, not only did I feel the part died early (technically I was BARELY out of warranty--stupid me I didn't bring the car in until just after 60K miles because I was so focused on potentially losing my 4th bar and I didn't want the car to just sit in a parking lot for 2 weeks in the summer), but after posting about this here and on Facebook, and the fact that Nissan knew exactly what the problem was based on just my description, I infer that this is actually a fairly common problem!

Now fortunately Nissan did offer me out of warranty assistance so I didn't have to pay the $2600 myself (or at least not all of it). And I am willing to posit that perhaps this was due to the fact that it was a first generation LEAF and maybe parts quality was not yet mature.

However, to bring it back on topic, let's not fall into the trap of thinking that the Model 3 won't be in the same boat. Most of us that have reservations and will take delivery in the first year are going to be buying a car that almost certainly will have more issues than say either a 2023 Model 3 or a more established ICE vehicle today. If part of your justification for buying the Model 3 (or by extension, any Tesla) is that it's going to be far cheaper to maintain & repair, let's dispel that right away. While the drivetrain may be simpler, it's also "newer" and failures will be more likely to occur. And if/when they do occur, they will likely be quite expensive due to their relative rarity and lack of a good aftermarket supply chain build up. I'm not saying the cars will be junk either. Any individual owner may have great luck and have nothing go wrong. Just if we look at the total population, I do think that initially the cost spent on maintenance & repair per capita will certainly not be zero, and in fact may not even be all that competitive with reliable ICE vehicles.

I'm not trying to get us on to talking about the Leaf. I'm just referring to EVs in general. You're experience with the reduction gear is not different than an anomalous failure that occurs in many early model year cars. The 2001 and 2008 Accords for example had horrible transmissions. The '01 is considered one of the most unreliable cars of the last 20 years. And that's an Accord.

That brings us on to the Model 3. Everyone is lining up for not just an initial model year, but a first of it's kind product from a new manufacturer. Not bashing. Just pointing it out. I personally would want to wait a few years for the kinks to get worked out. The saving grace is that Tesla has a good reputation of taking care of its customers.

 

[abasile]

The reason we might be worried about "esoteric" EV parts requiring replacement is that EVs are not produced at anywhere near the massive scale of ICE production. Parts for ICE vehicles tend to be widely available and a huge number of people know how to perform repairs. However, I firmly believe that EVs will end up being cheaper to maintain than ICEVs once the EV market has matured.

In the meantime, for repairs on out-of-warranty EVs, it may sometimes make sense to shop around within the EV community and utilize the services of independent entities (including some "EV nerds" who may do jobs on the side in their personal garages) rather than paying full fare at dealerships or Tesla service centers.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I guess my question is

are these fluid changes as important as Tesla wants us to think they are or do they fall into the LEAF brake fluid box?

There are a lot of things maintenance recommends but how important are they? This is an answer you can't ask a service shop because they will ALWAYS recommend what the book says

 

[Nubo]

...So I think anyone would agree that most of those items are "optional" or "as needed" and very doable by either the end user (i.e. key fob battery replacement) or an independent mechanic (tire rotations and alignments) for FAR less than $475. The only possible truly costly item that may need to be done by Tesla is the drivetrain fluid service, whatever that is (odd that it's only a year 1 item). ...

Most of the wear-metals in a gearbox or differential accumlate during the early period. Once removed the next interval can be further out, as the mating surfaces now fit precisely and experience far less wear. I've heard this is good practice in general. I did an early change on the gear fluids in my last purchased car and the lube was indeed "silvery". I may go ahead and do a similar change if I decide to buy my next LEAF instead of lease.

 

[Nubo]

*duplicate*

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

...So I think anyone would agree that most of those items are "optional" or "as needed" and very doable by either the end user (i.e. key fob battery replacement) or an independent mechanic (tire rotations and alignments) for FAR less than $475. The only possible truly costly item that may need to be done by Tesla is the drivetrain fluid service, whatever that is (odd that it's only a year 1 item). ...

Most of the wear-metals in a gearbox or differential accumlate during the early period. Once removed the next interval can be further out, as the mating surfaces now fit precisely and experience far less wear. I've heard this is good practice in general. I did an early change on the gear fluids in my last purchased car and the lube was indeed "silvery". I may go ahead and do a similar change if I decide to buy my next LEAF instead of lease.

Teslas, with their outrageous torque, may be more needful than most in this regard.

Sounds like the standard process when manufacturing tolerances can't be accomplished.

 

[Nubo]

Sounds like the standard process when manufacturing tolerances can't be accomplished.

It's simply physical reality. No practical manufacturing process exists that will precisely polish the mating surfaces in the manner that simply running them does. You then have a choice as to whether to leave those wear metals in play, or take them out. The larger particles will be trapped by magnetic drain plugs over time. Smaller particles remain in suspension.

 

[GlennD]

Well since I just leased an another B250E it is not likely I will be leasing a 3. My current lease does not expire until 9/26/22. I wish Tesla well but the timeline does not work for me. Even with the deliver delays I think my number will come up before I am ready for a new car. My original lease expired in early January of 2010. That would have made it on Tesls's original timeline.

 

[dgpcolorado]

I have a question Mr dgpcolorado if it isn't being too nosey: had EVs not existed would you have spent what you did on your Tesla on an ICE car? What sort of car would you have otherwise bought?

I'd likely have kept my '96 Jeep Cherokee or replaced it with a somewhat newer used car. My LEAF actually replaced my 25 year old VW Golf — 230,000 miles, purchased new for $8600 — which I lost to a collision with a deer; I had just done some expensive repairs on it and planned to keep it for another five years and then see how the EV market was shaking out.

No, cars aren't my "thing." Driving on sunpower is. To elaborate:

I installed my first solar panels in 2008 as "phase 1" of a future electric car (and the cost came from the "car replacement fund" line in my budget). As GRA knows, I bicycle commuted for most of my career — 43,000 miles worth. Then I retired to the mountains to get away from the congestion of cities and suburbia. The problem is that it is an inefficient way to live: no public transportation, too challenging in terrain and weather for daily bicycle commuting (although I still do some rides down to town for a severe workout), seventy mile grocery shopping trips with 2500 feet of elevation change.

To me, the obvious way to reduce the impact of using a car, at least a little, was by driving an EV and fueling it with sunpower. Nevertheless, I had to wait a long time before the LEAF became available (I bought mine in Oregon and had it trucked to Colorado because they weren't being sold here yet). To get my LEAF serviced I had to drive it over Red Mountain Pass — 11,018 feet — to Durango, which involved about seven hours of charging in Durango and additional charging at a motel in Silverton that happened to have a 240 V L6-30 outlet they were kind enough to let me use. I considered myself lucky that I didn't have to tow my LEAF 330 miles to Denver for service. As the battery degraded (I think the heating from the high kW needed to ascend steep grades contributed to the problem) the grocery shopping trips were no longer possible in winter but by that time a public charge station had opened up in my destination city, so I was able to keep going with the LEAF for several more years.

As I said before, buying and driving beater used cars is far more cost-effective than buying new cars, including EVs, even with the temporary tax credits. For someone who needs an urban commuter car, it is hard to beat a used LEAF — they can be had at bargain prices IME. For someone who wants one EV that can do local driving as well as very long road trips, a used Tesla is the only option unless one is wealthy enough for a new one. Or just keep burning oil, as most people do. I now only go to gas stations to buy 0.4 gallons at a time for my chainsaw.

 

[edatoakrun]

Still not many (or any?) production model 3s delivered to buyers, but some interesting new reading here:

Subject:

Request for issuance of a new certificate of Conformity Initial application for MY2017 Model 3...

https://www.scribd.com/document/362674734/Model-3-epa#fullscreen&from_embed

 

[lpickup]

but some interesting new reading here:
https://www.scribd.com/document/362674734/Model-3-epa#fullscreen&from_embed

Yes, very interesting!

AC Recharge Energy, kWh 89.406(AER)

which of course would include any charging system overhead (AC/DC converter).

But it does get better:

City Range, miles 495.04
System AC, Wh/mile 180.6035876
System DC, Wh/mile 165.31
Vehicle DC, Wh/mile 158.11

I am interpreting "system AC" to include losses due to the AC/DC converter, and sure enough, multiplying 495.04 * 180.604 and you end up with the 89.406 mentioned above.

Now I'm not sure how to interpret "System DC" vs. "Vehicle DC". If you take 495.04 * 158.11 = 78.270 kWh, this matches up with the test report on page 17 which may (or may not) represent the energy transferred to the dyno? So this would account for motor losses? (just guessing here).

So would the System DC represent the actual battery capacity? 495.04 * 165.31 = 81.835kWh?

 

[lpickup]

Also evidence that Tesla is sandbagging the range results (summary from page 17):

Derating Factor 0.7
Five Cycle Range (mi) 334
MPGe 126
Tesla Desired Range (mi) 310

334 miles range vs. Tesla Desired Range of 310

 

[scottf200]

Relative MPGe numbers...

 

[GRA]

Just to make a note of it, the battery pack weight for the LR Model 3 is 480 kg. (1,058 lb.), the volume is 0.4 cu. m. (14.13 cu. ft.), and the (pack) specific energy is 150Wh/kg. By comparison, the Bolt's pack has a specific energy of around 140 Wh/kg., so same ballpark.

 

[cwerdna]

Those are really impressive MPGe figures for the Model 3. For awhile, the two most efficient in terms of MPGe were the Chevy Spark EV and the BMW i3 BEV (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=33640&id=35207&id=38557&id=38523).

I do wonder about the Ioniq EV figure and whether the EPA has done their own verification (own testing) of Hyundai's numbers. Or, if they screwed up and will need to downgrade it (ala https://hyundaimpginfo.com/aboutsettlement in the past).

 

[lorenfb]

Those are really impressive MPGe figures for the Model 3. For awhile, the two most efficient in terms of MPGe were the Chevy Spark EV and the BMW i3 BEV (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=33640&id=35207&id=38557&id=38523).

I do wonder about the Ioniq EV figure and whether the EPA has done their own verification (own testing) of Hyundai's numbers. Or, if they screwed up and will need to downgrade it (ala https://hyundaimpginfo.com/aboutsettlement in the past).

A more than a cursory look at the EPA numbers basically indicates the results are essentially in the "noise level" for the city numbers.
City driving efficiency is all about rolling resistance (weight & tires), motor efficiency (losses - motor & controller), and battery (internal
resistance). The difference in motor efficiencies is basically negligible as is the case for battery losses. So it's all about weight & tires
and how accurately the EPA tests can be replicated between vehicle tests, i.e. there is a margin of error which doesn't get discussed.

Model 3 - 3814 lbs, 131 EPA, Bolt - 3580 lbs, 128 EPA, i3 (60 Ahr) 2635 lbs, 137 EPA, Leaf 3391 lbs, 124 EPA

At issue: Model 3 - 400+ lbs > Leaf, yet 7 more miles per EPA, Note: Both use PM motors.

Bottom line: When one evaluates city driving EPA numbers, considers weight differences and potential testing errors, the quoting
of EPA numbers are a joke! What one can always state with certainty is that a BEV will always have better EPA numbers than a ICEV
or a hybrid.

 

[edatoakrun]

First report of parts order cutbacks.

IMO, a few weeks will eventually be probably extended just a bit forward...to forever.

Tesla cuts Model 3 part orders to Taiwan supplier Hota: report

TAIPEI (Reuters) - Luxury electric carmaker Tesla (TSLA.O) plans to slash by 40 percent its orders for parts for the new Model 3 mass-market sedan from Taiwanese auto component maker Hota Industrial Mfg. Co (1536.TW) from December, according to a media report.

Shares of the parts maker dropped nearly 9 percent after the Economic Daily News reported, citing Hota Chairman Shen Kuo-jung, that Tesla had told the firm orders would be cut to 3,000 sets per week from 5,000 sets starting December, due to a “bottleneck” in the production of Model 3.

Tesla may delay scheduled weekly shipments of 10,000 parts in March by a few weeks until May or June, the report added...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-taiwan-hota/tesla-cuts-model-3-part-orders-to-taiwan-supplier-hota-report-idUSKBN1CW0H4

 

[hyperionmark]

Those are really impressive MPGe figures for the Model 3. For awhile, the two most efficient in terms of MPGe were the Chevy Spark EV and the BMW i3 BEV (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=33640&id=35207&id=38557&id=38523).

I do wonder about the Ioniq EV figure and whether the EPA has done their own verification (own testing) of Hyundai's numbers. Or, if they screwed up and will need to downgrade it (ala https://hyundaimpginfo.com/aboutsettlement in the past).

And should get even a little better once we get a dual motor version. What kind of efficiency gains did we see in the Model S going from single motor to dual motor?

 

[edatoakrun]

First In-Depth look at the Tesla Model 3 | Model 3 Owners Club

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DT0vDMWsq4