Official Tesla Model S thread

[Nubo]

believe it or not in many places people do not have access to power where they park for the day.
even crazier, some people live in apartments/condos where access to charging is not possible and they use public transportation for their commute.
I am not looking for arguments, I am just pointing out a huge part of the population for whom an EV will not work. Until charging stations are as common as gasoline stations this segment is essentially shut out of the EV market

Not every impediment to universal adoption needs to be resolved before widespread adoption happens and demand becomes a driving force. And previously "unsolvable" problems are solved.

Consider electricity itself. Once a luxury for only the wealthiest homes. Before long available to less-wealthy homes. But what landlord would go to such an expense!?

There must have been a time when a wired apartment was something very special. A generation later, an apartment without electricity may have seemed somewhat desperate. A generation further still and an apartment without electrical power was likely seen as unacceptable, scandalous, or probably illegal.

I see no reason why widely available electrical power for car charging in rental situations would be any more difficult to achieve than the universal availability for living quarters. Much less difficult, I would think, than this other miracle which has already happened.

 

[apvbguy]

believe it or not in many places people do not have access to power where they park for the day.
even crazier, some people live in apartments/condos where access to charging is not possible and they use public transportation for their commute.
I am not looking for arguments, I am just pointing out a huge part of the population for whom an EV will not work. Until charging stations are as common as gasoline stations this segment is essentially shut out of the EV market

Not every impediment to universal adoption needs to be resolved before widespread adoption happens and demand becomes a driving force. And previously "unsolvable" problems are solved.

Consider electricity itself. Once a luxury for only the wealthiest homes. Before long available to less-wealthy homes. But what landlord would go to such an expense!?

There must have been a time when a wired apartment was something very special. A generation later, an apartment without electricity may have seemed somewhat desperate. A generation further still and an apartment without electrical power was likely seen as unacceptable, scandalous, or probably illegal.

I see no reason why widely available electrical power for car charging in rental situations would be any more difficult to achieve than the universal availability for living quarters. Much less difficult, I would think, than this other miracle which has already happened.

the hole in your analogy is while electrifying a home may have too expensive for average person or landlord back then as long as the power lines passed by the home it was doable. for many apartment dwellers charging an EV at home or work is impossible

 

[N952JL]

believe it or not in many places people do not have access to power where they park for the day.
even crazier, some people live in apartments/condos where access to charging is not possible and they use public transportation for their commute.
I am not looking for arguments, I am just pointing out a huge part of the population for whom an EV will not work. Until charging stations are as common as gasoline stations this segment is essentially shut out of the EV market

Not every impediment to universal adoption needs to be resolved before widespread adoption happens and demand becomes a driving force. And previously "unsolvable" problems are solved.

Consider electricity itself. Once a luxury for only the wealthiest homes. Before long available to less-wealthy homes. But what landlord would go to such an expense!?

There must have been a time when a wired apartment was something very special. A generation later, an apartment without electricity may have seemed somewhat desperate. A generation further still and an apartment without electrical power was likely seen as unacceptable, scandalous, or probably illegal.

I see no reason why widely available electrical power for car charging in rental situations would be any more difficult to achieve than the universal availability for living quarters. Much less difficult, I would think, than this other miracle which has already happened.

I remember visiting my Aunt in MO back in 1968. She had a party line phone but no Electricity. The lines were not there to tape into.

I also need a 300 mile range at 70mph EV. And I also want a 6 hr charge EV riding lawn mower! I'm getting tired of having to go to the gas station for my lawn mowers.

 

[Nubo]

the hole in your analogy is while electrifying a home may have too expensive for average person or landlord back then as long as the power lines passed by the home it was doable. for many apartment dwellers charging an EV at home or work is impossible

There is no hole; you make my point even more concisely than I did. The power lines, the generating stations, the transmission lines, are already there. A landlord may view the addition of outlets and facilities as "too expensive". But it's doable. And once the demand is there, the expense will increasingly be seen as an expected amenity that landlords will need to provide in order to compete for tenants.

 

[swaltner]

And I also want a 6 hr charge EV riding lawn mower! I'm getting tired of having to go to the gas station for my lawn mowers.

Off topic, but...

http://www.meangreenproducts.com/meangreenspecs.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not quite your 6 hour runtime, but 4 hours and batteries (50-70 pounds) that a single person can lift with some care.

I had a Hustler Turf Zeon mower for a while. With a run time of 62 minutes, it was about 5 minutes shy of being able to mow my yard in a single shot. Still wondering if I should have just gotten the fast charger instead of screwing around with buying gas for the new mower....

 

[cwerdna]

Business Insider/Yahoo Finance: Big Chunks Of The US Couldn't Care Less About Tesla:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/big-chunks-us-couldnt-care-160111011.html

I'd imagine they're referring to queries for http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=tesla&date=1/2013+12m&cmpt=q&geo=US" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

 

[mkjayakumar]

To add to Nubo's point: The same was true for high speed Internet which is now seen as ubiquitous , but just about 10 years ago was unavailable in vast swaths of the nation. Availabilty of 3G (and now 4G) has completely changed the landscape, that in the US I am always connected all the time in (almost) all the places.

None of that you could have imagined 10 years ago and if AOL's push of their cheap dial-in capabilities did not materialize, then we would not be here.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

having had a chance now to compare about 30K of Leaf driving to 16K of Model S driving, there are a few interesting comparisons to note:
1. temperature management is vital! Once the Leaf is cold soaked, it takes some rather heroic efforts to warm it up vs the Tesla S, which warms the battery as it charges. if you want the extra range that a warm battery gives, all you have to do in the tesla S is plug it in and charge it some. In extreme heat, the battery is also protected. an upgraded version of the temperature management in the Roadster is now in the S. the roadsters have done quite well even in extreme heat climates. temperature management rules!
2. CHAdeMO is design flawed by virtue of the fact that it is just plain huge, clunky and not user friendly, leading the stations to be plagued with maintenance issues. After using Tesla's one, slim and easy to use plug... Nissan and all other EV manufacturers should adopt Tesla's system, it works and it's super fast, up to 120 kW and soon 135 kW!!!
3. we enjoy the Leaf much more now that we don't try and push it's limits so much... sizing the battery for the task is key.
4. I now firmly believe that larger batteries are more vital than lots of car chargers all over the place.
5. Tesla's approach to getting charging stations in the ground is mind boggling, most stations have about 10 stalls. in a matter of weeks the number of stations is set to double nationwide, that combined with the fact that they will be solar and matched with battery banks in the next few years is also amazing. check out the map page, move the slider from today to "coming soon" (as in the next month or two), it's historic: http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger Nissan's approach to expanding quick chargers is anemic in comparison, it feels like very little is happening, even as if plans are being scaled back, not expanded.

 

[DaveEV]

I now firmly believe that larger batteries are more vital than lots of car chargers all over the place.

That is easy to say when each Model S that is sold is enough money to pay for a LEAF + QC station installed - but a single QC station serves a lot more than one vehicle.

Throwing tons of battery is one way to solve the problem, but certainly not the most cost effective.

And you still need charging stations all over the place regardless since inevitably you are going to end up somewhere that you need to charge.

 

[RegGuheert]

having had a chance now to compare about 30K of Leaf driving to 16K of Model S driving, there are a few interesting comparisons to note:
1. temperature management is vital! Once the Leaf is cold soaked, it takes some rather heroic efforts to warm it up vs the Tesla S, which warms the battery as it charges. if you want the extra range that a warm battery gives, all you have to do in the tesla S is plug it in and charge it some. In extreme heat, the battery is also protected. an upgraded version of the temperature management in the Roadster is now in the S. the roadsters have done quite well even in extreme heat climates. temperature management rules!

On Tuesday I drove about 69.5 miles RT with the OAT varying between 35F and 38F. By charging and heating just before departure, the battery temperature was 51F at departure and 59F upon arrival home four hours later. This was the largest temperature rise above ambient that I have ever seen. So far this winter, I have yet to see a battery temperature below the 40s, even though we have had several mornings in the teens.

Of course the other side of that same coin is that the battery will be exposed to higher temperatures during the hot months.

2. CHAdeMO is design flawed by virtue of the fact that it is just plain huge, clunky and not user friendly, leading the stations to be plagued with maintenance issues. After using Tesla's one, slim and easy to use plug... Nissan and all other EV manufacturers should adopt Tesla's system, it works and it's super fast, up to 120 kW and soon 135 kW!!!

I've always felt that the Achilles heels of CHAdeMo were cost and reliability.

3. we enjoy the Leaf much more now that we don't try and push it's limits so much... sizing the battery for the task is key.

Agreed. The 69.5-mile trip is our longest "normal" trip which we take (about every other month). But our frequent trips are 14 and 30 miles with a weekly excursion of about 46 miles. The LEAF is quite well-suited for these uses. Anything longer than the 69.5-mile trip is done in the Honda Civic Hybrid or one of our gasoline ICEs.

4. I now firmly believe that larger batteries are more vital than lots of car chargers all over the place.

Me, too. But I have come to believe that the sweet spot for mass-market BEV adoption will be around a 125-mile EPA range.

 

[apvbguy]

having had a chance now to compare about 30K of Leaf driving to 16K of Model S driving, there are a few interesting comparisons to note:

3. we enjoy the Leaf much more now that we don't try and push it's limits so much... sizing the battery for the task is key.
.

bingo, this is the best and most important observation that you've offered

 

[TonyWilliams]

... Nissan and all other EV manufacturers should adopt Tesla's system, it works and it's super fast, up to 120 kW and soon 135 kW!!!

I've always felt that the Achilles heels of CHAdeMo were cost and reliability.

You're in fantasty land if you think that a Tesla sticker on a charger makes it cheaper to buy, or cheaper install. Also, just because there have been a bunch of truly dreadful CHAdeMO chargers deployed with equally poorly designed and clunky plugs doesn't mean the CHAdeMO standard is flawed.

The two advantages that Tesla offers is the elegant plug and higher power. The former is doable for a CHAdeMO II design (just offer adaptors at the station between the older design and new one on a security cable), but the latter is just a function of more money.

 

[Reddy]

having had a chance now to compare about 30K of Leaf driving to 16K of Model S driving, there are a few interesting comparisons to note:
3. we enjoy the Leaf much more now that we don't try and push it's limits so much... sizing the battery for the task is key.

bingo, this is the best and most important observation that you've offered

+1 Over here, where the metroplex is 15 mi across, the Leaf works great. It's the perfect tool for in-town, less than 50 mi, driving!

 

[smkettner]

having had a chance now to compare about 30K of Leaf driving to 16K of Model S driving, there are a few interesting comparisons to note:
3. we enjoy the Leaf much more now that we don't try and push it's limits so much... sizing the battery for the task is key.

bingo, this is the best and most important observation that you've offered

+1 Over here, where the metroplex is 15 mi across, the Leaf works great. It's the perfect tool for in-town, less than 50 mi, driving!

Unfortunately LEAF was marketed primarily at 100 mile range or about double the perfect tool for 50 mi driving.
At least Tesla primarily sticks to the EPA rating with limited talk of 300 miles unless under limited ideal conditions.

 

[DaveEV]

MOD NOTE: I split off the whole "Who created the Internet" topic. Please stay on topic.

 

[RegGuheert]

... Nissan and all other EV manufacturers should adopt Tesla's system, it works and it's super fast, up to 120 kW and soon 135 kW!!!

I've always felt that the Achilles heels of CHAdeMo were cost and reliability.

You're in fantasty land if you think that a Tesla sticker on a charger makes it cheaper to buy, or cheaper install. Also, just because there have been a bunch of truly dreadful CHAdeMO chargers deployed with equally poorly designed and clunky plugs doesn't mean the CHAdeMO standard is flawed.

I said neither of those two things.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I've always felt that the Achilles heels of CHAdeMo were cost and reliability.

You're in fantasty land if you think that a Tesla sticker on a charger makes it cheaper to buy, or cheaper install. Also, just because there have been a bunch of truly dreadful CHAdeMO chargers deployed with equally poorly designed and clunky plugs doesn't mean the CHAdeMO standard is flawed.

I said neither of those two things.

Why not clarify what "cost and reliability" means then when referring to CHAdeMO chargers?

 

[RegGuheert]

Why not clarify what "cost and reliability" means then when referring to CHAdeMO chargers?

Sure. At $50,000, only the government can afford them. At $20,000, it is not really possible to build a business case around them. At $10,000 and below, there might be a business case for those who already own the land, but the reliability must be very high.

Tesla is paying for their network from vehicle sales. In other words, they have come up with a way to pay for the quick chargers.

Have you been able to make a business case out of installing quick chargers?

 

[TonyWilliams]

Why not clarify what "cost and reliability" means then when referring to CHAdeMO chargers?

Sure. At $50,000, only the government can afford them. At $20,000, it is not really possible to build a business case around them. At $10,000 and below, there might be a business case for those who already own the land, but the reliability must be very high.

Tesla is paying for their network from vehicle sales. In other words, they have come up with a way to pay for the quick chargers.

Have you been able to make a business case out of installing quick chargers?

Yes, we have, but to be honest, it must be thought of as vending a product. Nobody is paying $50k for a charger anymore, except the usual government graft like Blink was. There are Coke machines over $10k.

Reliability needs to be very high, regardless of the price. The two aren't related. We were lucky to get on with Fuji first, because their unit is very dependable, and the plug is far easier to use than the competition.

Once a host will offer the spot, and a deal is worked out on electricity costs, then a charger can make money and pay for itself, provided you have a good location. Blink would put chargers anywhere that somebody would allow them, since they got paid for installs from Uncle Sugar, not for building a robust, logical network.

One additional issue is installation costs, and these are best included in new construction projects, which essentially makes those costs near zero. That's it. Folks show up and pay the fees for charging their cars, and with our well over 1000 paid charge events, it can/does make money. The next question is how long will the charger last, but assuming ten years, it will do just fine.

We are growing the number in SoCal with several permits approved.

 

[RegGuheert]

That's it. Folks show up and pay the fees, and with our well over 1000 paid charge events, it can/does make money. The next question is how long will the charger last, but assuming ten years, it will do just fine.

I wish you the best with your efforts!

Since these are sourced by three-phase AC, the energy storage (capacitor) requirements should be minimized, but only automobile-level manufacturing quality power electronics at that power level tend to have long warranties. Do you mind me asking how long your warranties are on these units?