On the Radio right now-NPR "Science Friday" Leaf vs. Volt

[DaveinOlyWA]

Science friday has been 1 of my favorite shows i have been podcasting it 4 years. Unfortunetly i had to work so could not listen live. However i still started Screaming at my phone When the guy implied that The leaf's demand was a result of some sort of government conspiracy.

I Had taken several informal Poles on what types Of EV requirements Would be acceptable. Many would accept a mere 50 mile range. I also think you would be a big mistake 4 car companies not to market A highway capable 50 mile range At a
lower price point. Put 1 out at 20,000 before incentives in the market will explode.

Typed with Speech to text From my droid x

 

[Gonewild]

Here is the podcast link

http://podcastdownload.npr.org/anon.npr-podcasts/podcast/510221/129186636/npr_129186636.mp3?_kip_ipx=1647709246-1281799683

 

[evnow]

If they tank, that's 50 Billion tax dollars down the drain.

Let us all buy new houses and prop up the real estate market. Fed has bought $1,500 Billion worth of mortgage backed securities. :twisted:

 

[AndyH]

Enough with the Volt bashing, leaffan!

So - Leaf bashing is ok, but we must not talk truth about Volt? Yeah, ok...

As SanDust says, they both have their place. I started out convinced that I wanted a Volt. I am now determined to get a Leaf. With the miles I drive, either one of them will be gasoline free most days, and either one of them will cause me to use gasoline occasionally (for trips over 100 miles).

Let's take a 100 mile trip in a Leaf, Volt, and standard Prius. We'll assume 50mpg for the Prius and 37mpg for the Volt. We'll also assume the Volt truly will deliver 40 miles in EV mode.

100 miles in the Leaf: zero gasoline burned
100 miles in the Prius: 2 gallons burned
100 miles in the Volt: 1.6 gallons burned

I'd buy a Prius before I'd buy a Volt - it's mature tech and well proven, the electric and gas systems are better integrated for best efficiency, it will travel farther than 350 miles on a tank of fuel, and it's upgradeable to a PHEV60 capability for much less money than the Volt.

Yes - there are mission profiles that better fit different vehicles. For that reason, anyone that feels a 'blanket smear' of any vehicle because it won't do everything is just wrong from the start.

 

[cdub]

Science friday has been 1 of my favorite shows i have been podcasting it 4 years. Unfortunetly i had to work so could not listen live. However i still started Screaming at my phone When the guy implied that The leaf's demand was a result of some sort of government conspiracy.

Same here. That guy has his info all wrong. Does he know how much government subsidies exit for oil companies that make the price of oil so artificially low?

Government Fiat (sp?) my bum. Oil companies get 10000x more tax loopholes and subsidies compared to EV consumers and companies.

He needs to drive that car - then he'll know exactly why people want it. It's from CONSUMER demand. The government rebates is just icing on the cake.

 

[LEAFfan]

I also think there's place for both Volt and LEAF. Or even a used Prius with extra batteries (as discussed on another thread). The Volt is just simply not for me. And I am willing to make compromises to NOT use gasoline whereever absolutely possible. (You should hear the spouse talking about my "greening"!) The final straw was probably no longer being able to watch all the injured and dying animals in the BP Gulf of Mexico disaster.

I do understand and respect the argument about buying Made in America, except so little (parts content) is these days, despite what a badge on the outside is trying to tell you. But ok, I won't argue that point further.

The real problem, and ok, it's more of an image and historical one, is GM itself. If the Volt was a Ford product there'd be a lot more to like about it. (Bail-out, EV1 crushing, etc you get the idea. Plus, the gradual degradation of original objectives (60 mile E-range, $25k price), the "cheating", calling it an electric car, etc etc.)

I don't want to argue any of the points I made above. Just want to state my feelings of why I will not buy the Volt in its current form.

Instead, all the best to GM, and to those that get a Volt, and use as little gasoline with it as possible. And I hope GM sees the light and does its absolute best to make the Volt a huge success.

(Honey, did you plug in the LEAF last night ?) :lol:

Well, if one of you forget, it will send you a text message.

 

[Zythryn]

If the Volt had been available three years ago, we would have bought one instead of our 2nd Prius.
However, due to it's inherent complexity and short EV range, And the fact the Volt will have competition when it finally arrives, we have better solutions.
I am not saying that the Volt won't work for anyone, just that GM has a shrinking market which will only get smaller for a 40 mile EV with a gas extender.

I also disagreed with the guy that indicated the only reason people would buy EVs is government subsidies.
I do think the subsidies will increase the number of sales, but I also believe there would be enough of a market without subsidies to support the business model (well, Nissan's at least, maybe not GMs)

 

[lne937s]

.... A series hybrid is more efficient than a parallel hybrid like the Prius, at least from an engineering point of view. This is a very wonderful design feature, not just that it's plug-in. So in the end, although the Volt is not for me, I do very much hope it succeeds and the closer we get to weaning off of osama-bin-lodoline, the better!

A series hybrid is not more efficient in may applications. In an application where you need to supply large ammounts of torque accellerating slowly from a low speed (like a locomotive)- a series system is more efficient. For relatively quick accelleration followed by steady state cruising (like a car), not so much. Adding the additional conversion of energy involves greater losses. Running an engine at a steady speed through a gear (or belt), like cruising on the highway, is more efficient than running a gas engine to a generator to an inverter to a motor to a reduction gear. The Prius makes better gas mileage than a Volt because it eliminates the extra energy conversions.

 

[evnow]

The Prius makes better gas mileage than a Volt because it eliminates the extra energy conversions.

And because it uses Atkinson cycle. I think the jury is still out on series vs parallel. Let us give series a few more years and see what happens ...

 

[DeaneG]

OTOH, in a series system, the gas engine may be operated at a single speed for maximum efficiency. I understand that is not how the Volt's engine is managed.

 

[cdub]

I really think GM missed the mark on the sedan form factor of the Volt.

Having only 2 seats in the back is a big turnoff for me.

What would have been a shoe in as a good seller for the market would be the Volt Technology in a compact SUV or even better a minivan. I was really interested in the ENVI Jeep Wrangler and ENVI Town and Country (with Chrysler's Volt-esque technology) before they killed it.

It would provide the market with a type of fuel efficient car that isn't there. The Volt as is competes with the Prius and Leaf... and from a price standpoint it loses in my opinion - but put the Volt technology in an SUV or Minivan - well then there is a car that would sell like hotcakes in my opinion.

Alot of people who own minivans would love an eco-friendly alternative - and there just isn't one yet. This would fill a badly needed hole in the market.

 

[LEAFfan]

Enough with the Volt bashing, leaffan! As SanDust says, they both have their place. I started out convinced that I wanted a Volt. I am now determined to get a Leaf. With the miles I drive, either one of them will be gasoline free most days, and either one of them will cause me to use gasoline occasionally (for trips over 100 miles).

Many people want the US to reduce its imports of oil from the middle east, but they have a variety of reasons for that. There is a significant contingent (not well represented on this board) who don't want to buy anything foreign, including cars as well as oil. Those people won't buy a car from Nissan, and I hope they do buy a Volt.

I'm not in that camp, but I also hope the Volt is successful, because American taxpayers have a lot of money invested in GM right now. This is no longer a political issue, just an economic fact. If GM does well, we may get most of that money back. If they tank, that's 50 Billion tax dollars down the drain.

This almost tempts me to say Volt-bashing is anti-American, but we are still trying to be a free speech country, so I won't go that far. I'll just say it makes my wallet shudder.

I was just replying to sandust's ignorant bashing of the LEAF. Actually, mine wasn't bashing, but pretty factual. Tony, from GM, said the Volt was complex. I agree and with complexity comes many more problems and breakdowns. The LEAF, on the other hand, is very simple.

 

[Gavin]

You say the Volt isn't an EV, the Volt folks say they'll wave to you when you're stranded on the side of the road with a flat battery

I assume the smart EV people will never be stuck on the side of the road with a dead battery. You should, EV or gas or diesel, always know how far you can go...Hell I have seen many people walking with a small red gas canister down the highway to the last exit...so I guess gas cars can run out of power too. Funny...all vehicles have a range...find the right one for you and be happy.

If range is a fear, get a gas car.
If it isn't, get an EV. Or not. Whatever. But really the FUD from the Volt camp is getting old.

I thought we were pass all this.

Gavin

 

[evnow]

You say the Volt isn't an EV, the Volt folks say they'll wave to you when you're stranded on the side of the road with a flat battery.

I know. You could be very bad at planning and not see what is coming up. Just keep going down the same path. What would you end up with ? Ofcourse stranded on the side and then someone has to rescue you.

Wait, are we talking about GM's bankruptcy and the $50B rescue ? :lol:

 

[lne937s]

I really think GM missed the mark on the sedan form factor of the Volt.

Having only 2 seats in the back is a big turnoff for me.

What would have been a shoe in as a good seller for the market would be the Volt Technology in a compact SUV or even better a minivan. I was really interested in the ENVI Jeep Wrangler and ENVI Town and Country (with Chrysler's Volt-esque technology) before they killed it.

It would provide the market with a type of fuel efficient car that isn't there. The Volt as is competes with the Prius and Leaf... and from a price standpoint it loses in my opinion - but put the Volt technology in an SUV or Minivan - well then there is a car that would sell like hotcakes in my opinion.

Alot of people who own minivans would love an eco-friendly alternative - and there just isn't one yet. This would fill a badly needed hole in the market.

If you are looking for a minivan, Nissan is supposed to come out with an electric version of the NV200 for the US in the next couple of years:
http://www.roadtestreports.co.uk/full-road-test-report/Nissan/NV200/

 

[LEAFer]

You say the Volt isn't an EV, the Volt folks say they'll wave to you when you're stranded on the side of the road with a flat battery

I assume the smart EV people will never be stuck on the side of the road with a dead battery. You should, EV or gas or diesel, always know how far you can go...Hell I have seen many people walking with a small red gas canister down the highway to the last exit...so I guess gas cars can run out of power too. Funny...all vehicles have a range...find the right one for you and be happy.
Gavin

Hmm .... what happens if you run out of gas on a Volt ? :shock:
Can you tell the car to activate an emergency reserve from the traction battery to limp to a gas station ? (It's only 50% discharged, right?)

 

[SanDust]

I was just replying to sandust's ignorant bashing of the LEAF. Actually, mine wasn't bashing, but pretty factual. Tony, from GM, said the Volt was complex. I agree and with complexity comes many more problems and breakdowns. The LEAF, on the other hand, is very simple.

So saying that "both the Leaf and the Volt will have their place" is, in your mind, "ignorant bashing of the Leaf"?

As for "being factual", a redundant propulsion systems will be more reliable than a single propulsion system, unless the former has numerous single points of failure. More expensive to produce and maintain, but more reliable. And with respect to the "problem" of having more parts, it's well known in the space industry that more parts suggest a more reliable system.

As an FYI, with respect to your note that "one" of the two will be able to send a text message, the Volt connectivity may well be better than the Leaf's. You can connect to the Volt using either an iPhone or an Android phone, and yes it will remind you if you haven't plugged in. More interestingly, the Volt will use Google Navigation. Not sure if the Leaf will use this phenomenal tool but I haven't read anything about it, and the fact Nissan is wed to ATT may result in some limitations.

Like I said, both these cars will have their place.

 

[LEAFfan]

I was just replying to sandust's ignorant bashing of the LEAF. Actually, mine wasn't bashing, but pretty factual. Tony, from GM, said the Volt was complex. I agree and with complexity comes many more problems and breakdowns. The LEAF, on the other hand, is very simple.

So saying that "both the Leaf and the Volt will have their place" is, in your mind, "ignorant bashing of the Leaf"?

As for "being factual", a redundant propulsion systems will be more reliable than a single propulsion system, unless the former has numerous single points of failure. More expensive to produce and maintain, but more reliable. And with respect to the "problem" of having more parts, it's well known in the space industry that more parts suggest a more reliable system.

As an FYI, with respect to your note that "one" of the two will be able to send a text message, the Volt connectivity may well be better than the Leaf's. You can connect to the Volt using either an iPhone or an Android phone, and yes it will remind you if you haven't plugged in. More interestingly, the Volt will use Google Navigation. Not sure if the Leaf will use this phenomenal tool but I haven't read anything about it, and the fact Nissan is wed to ATT may result in some limitations.

Like I said, both these cars will have their place.

Your bashing part, which you failed to mention, was when you said people would see us along side of the road without any juice. THAT is your ignorant comment.
And the LEAF can be controlled with an inexpensive 'smart' phone. One doesn't need an expensive iphone. You'll never win an argument saying something with 300 parts to one is more reliable. LOL, where in the world did you come up with that? But you did get it right about the Volt being MUCH more expensive to maintain.

 

[planet4ever]

I was just replying to sandust's ignorant bashing of the LEAF. Actually, mine wasn't bashing, but pretty factual. Tony, from GM, said the Volt was complex. I agree and with complexity comes many more problems and breakdowns. The LEAF, on the other hand, is very simple.

I feel compelled to point out that the statements attributed to me in this quote were actually made by leaffan. SanDust apparently misplaced an end-quote marker by accident.

 

[SanDust]

I feel compelled to point out that the statements attributed to me in this quote were actually made by leaffan. SanDust apparently misplaced an end-quote marker by accident.

My mistake in not cleaning up the quote. I knew that. Sorry.