Permit needed for EVSE if using existing dryer outlet?

[empowah]

Hi all,

I managed to get an EVSE from the CEC program in November. It was installed about a month ago, but the electrician still hasn't pulled a permit for it or scheduled an inspection from the City, despite billing me $249 specifically for those tasks.

The electrician tapped the existing, unused 240-volt dryer outlet in our garage. The EVSE that was installed is the standard 30-amp Aerovironment unit that needs to be hardwired (not portable). To my knowledge, a new circuit breaker wasn't added to our existing utility panel. Given these circumstances, is an electrical permit required for this install?

If a permit is not required, then I will request a refund for services paid for that were never rendered. If a permit is required, then I will contact them again to pull the permit. I'm concerned about any liability issues that may arise with a non-permitted EVSE installation, so I want it to be done properly.

I apologize in advance if this question has been answered somewhere else.

Thanks,
Michael

 

[smkettner]

30a EVSE needs a 40a circuit to meet code. Talk to the city and the boss as this needs to be corrected.

 

[UkrainianKozak]

You don't need a permit if your current EVSE has a plug that plugged in into existing outlet.
But if electrician actually replaced the circuit that fed the outlet with the circuit that now feeds hardwired EVSE (no plug and no outlet anymore) in such case permit would be most likely required.

Hi all,

I managed to get an EVSE from the CEC program in November. It was installed about a month ago, but the electrician still hasn't pulled a permit for it or scheduled an inspection from the City, despite billing me $249 specifically for those tasks.

The electrician tapped the existing, unused 240-volt dryer outlet in our garage. The EVSE that was installed is the standard 30-amp Aerovironment unit that needs to be hardwired (not portable). To my knowledge, a new circuit breaker wasn't added to our existing utility panel. Given these circumstances, is an electrical permit required for this install?

If a permit is not required, then I will request a refund for services paid for that were never rendered. If a permit is required, then I will contact them again to pull the permit. I'm concerned about any liability issues that may arise with a non-permitted EVSE installation, so I want it to be done properly.

I apologize in advance if this question has been answered somewhere else.

Thanks,
Michael

 

[planet4ever]

30a EVSE needs a 40a circuit to meet code. Talk to the city and the boss as this needs to be corrected.

Just to spell out the assumption in smkettner's statement, electric dryers are virtually always installed on 30A, not 40A, circuits. Unless the wiring was oversized and the electrician replaced the circuit breakers, you have a botched job that the city will not, and should not, approve.

Ray

 

[Valdemar]

Unless you are absolutely sure everything is done properly (and it sounds like it may be not) it is in your best interest to get a permit and have the electrical work inspected and approved by a city inspector. Too many "electricians" out there who don't know what they are doing (speaking from experience).

 

[Nubo]

It sounds like the original dryer outlet is still available, and with power?, but was "tapped" for the hard-wire EVSE installation? Is the EVSE also getting power? There should only be 1 device on this circuit. If the electrician left BOTH the dryer and the EVSE "hot", then start over with another electrician, imho.

 

[davewill]

I echo the concerns. AFAIK, that EVSE can only be configured for 30a operation. Since dryer outlets are 30a, the installation likely does not meet code, which requires a 40a circuit. It sounds like the installer is trying to pull a fast one on you AND the CEC program, who paid for part of the install. I'd contact the city, and the CEC program. If you used a credit card to pay the electrician, I'd also file a dispute of the charge, until the job passes an inspection.

 

[UBUYGAS]

Maybe the OP can use this site to find a legit electrician ?

http://www.homeadvisor.com/task.Electrical-Vehicle-Charging.61620.html?fromCatOID=-10312&link_id=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[jsongster]

When they did mine... a very similar situation... they disconnected existing dryer cable from its old 30A breaker... pulled breaker, made wire safe from dryer... ( no longer connected) and ran a new wire across garage in conduit to the EVSE location near front of garage. Breaker panel at back wall of garage.

The electrician who did mine pulled permits, I paid for that... and it was all successfully installed and works fine,

If I had simply upgraded my 120v EVSE trickle charger to a 20A from ingineer I would not have needed to pull permits as the EVSE was never going to pull more than 20A and the dryer outlet would have been unmodified.

Some days later PG&E contacted me about the new load I had added and in warning me about their need to inspect the work, implied that I might still be liable for upgrades if I was somehow not set up right. They later called back and said it was all ok. No need for any facility upgrades on their side.

I'm pretty sure if I had bought a Tesla with a 50A charger or more... that PG&E would have been more interested than they were for the little 25A LEAF.

EV drivers should probably support the consumer watch group TURN to keep PG&E honest in their dealings with Solar panels energy buyback and EV charging.

 

[empowah]

Thanks for all the help!

I checked my electrical panel, and it seems the electrician installed a new 40 amp circuit breaker:

... but used the existing wiring for the dryer. There used to be an outlet here, which he replaced with a blank panel. The existing wiring was instead inserted into conduit, which extends through the wall:

The conduit then runs into a metal box (what is this?) and then into the EVSE:

My understanding is that upgrading the circuit breaker to 40 amps (from 30 amps, presumably) is not enough; the circuit itself (i.e., all the wiring) needs to be upgraded as well. However, our car only has the 3.3 kW on-board charger, which draws 15 amps. I'm debating between (1) asking for a refund of the $250 permit fees and keeping the existing install, if it's safe, and (2) moving forward with the inspections and permits, which would likely require new 40-amp wiring that the Aerovironment install does not cover. Our garage is pretty far from the electrical panel, so the cost would be high.

The advantage of the second choice is that it will "futureproof" our charging if we ever get, say, a Tesla in a couple of years. The first choice would be less expensive, and it should still be safe, given the 15 amp charging... right?

Thanks,
Michael

 

[EVDRIVER]

Regardless of your charger the wire must match the breaker. No exception.

 

[mwalsh]

It looks like he put a bit of effort in. If you have the wherewithal, I would be tempted to pull some of the coverings, to see if you can tell what gauge the wiring is. But if you don't know what you're doing, don't go digging around in there.

 

[smkettner]

Did the city sign-off the permit after a final on-site inspection?
I would call the city and describe your concerns of 40a breaker with #10 wire.

 

[davewill]

... but used the existing wiring for the dryer. There used to be an outlet here, which he replaced with a blank panel. The existing wiring was instead inserted into conduit, which extends through the wall:

Image

What he actually did was splice new wire onto the existing wire inside that box, and run it through that exposed conduit. This is acceptable because the metal box protects the splice, and someone needing to troubleshoot the circuit can easily open the box to find the splice.

I DO have to say, I don't approve of the way he did the work, though. The conduit should either have exited through the COVER of the box (they make covers for this purpose), or the wire should have been run inside the wall. It should NOT exit out the top of the box, and then come out onto the surface through a gaping hole in the drywall.

The conduit then runs into a metal box (what is this?) and then into the EVSE:
Image

This is likely a shutoff switch so that someone can cut power to the EVSE without having to go find the breaker in the main panel. This is why a lot of us like to have a plug on our EVSEs. The plug serves as the local cutoff (just unplug it) instead of having to have a cutoff switch installed.

My understanding is that upgrading the circuit breaker to 40 amps (from 30 amps, presumably) is not enough; the circuit itself (i.e., all the wiring) needs to be upgraded as well. However, our car only has the 3.3 kW on-board charger, which draws 15 amps. I'm debating between (1) asking for a refund of the $250 permit fees and keeping the existing install, if it's safe, and (2) moving forward with the inspections and permits, which would likely require new 40-amp wiring that the Aerovironment install does not cover. Our garage is pretty far from the electrical panel, so the cost would be high.

The advantage of the second choice is that it will "futureproof" our charging if we ever get, say, a Tesla in a couple of years. The first choice would be less expensive, and it should still be safe, given the 15 amp charging... right?

Thanks,
Michael

Personally, I wouldn't be satisfied unless the work is properly inspected. In the short term, find out what size wire is being used for the circuit. If it is correct for 40 amps, then you can simply file for the permit and have the inspection done yourself. If its wrong, then you have two choices:

1. Have the circuit fixed/rerun properly for a 40a breaker
2. Change the breaker back to 30a, and get an EVSE that can be configured to run at 24a or less.

Either way, get the danged thing permitted and inspected.

 

[Valdemar]

I can be wrong here but this circuit should really be on a 20A breaker for #10 wire because the wire ampacity has to be derated for continuous load, so #10 can only carry 24A in this application (24*1.25=30). Technically you could use a 24A breaker if they existed. There are also conduit fill considerations. Get the thing inspected or at least bring someone for a 2nd opinion.

Edit: I suspect you have #8 already, it would be a pretty obvious error to use a 40A breaker on #10 for anyone who's done this type of work in the past. You still have to confirm this though.

 

[davewill]

I can be wrong here but this circuit should really be on a 20A breaker for #10 wire because the wire ampacity has to be derated for continuous load, so #10 can only carry 24A in this application (24*1.25=30). ...

No, it's the EVSE that must be no more than 80% of the circuit capacity, not the breaker. Up to 32a (30a is what's commercially available) on a 40a circuit and breaker is correct... or up to a 24a EVSE on a 30a circuit and breaker.

 

[Valdemar]

I can be wrong here but this circuit should really be on a 20A breaker for #10 wire because the wire ampacity has to be derated for continuous load, so #10 can only carry 24A in this application (24*1.25=30). ...

No, it's the EVSE that must be no more than 80% of the circuit capacity, not the breaker. Up to 32a (30a is what's commercially available) on a 40a circuit and breaker is correct... or up to a 24a EVSE on a 30a circuit and breaker.

Isn't it the same thing but from a different perspective? All I'm saying given the OP already has a 30A EVSE and wants to more or less safely operate it for now over #10 (if it is really #10) for 3kW charging it has to be done using a 20A breaker, not a 30A one as it was previously suggested. Even with a 20A breaker I don't think it would pass an inspection.

 

[davewill]

Isn't it the same thing but from a different perspective? All I'm saying given the OP already has a 30A EVSE and wants to more or less safely operate it for now over #10 (if it is really #10) for 3kW charging it has to be done using a 20A breaker, not a 30A one as it was previously suggested. Even with a 20A breaker I don't think it would pass an inspection.

No. The 30a EVSE needs a 40a circuit. Period. The only way to operate safely if the wire is only big enough for 30a is to get an EVSE that draws under 24a, and change the breaker to match the wire.

 

[empowah]

Thanks for all the suggestions. The installer said they will schedule an inspection tomorrow; hopefully they follow through on that.

Edit: I suspect you have #8 already, it would be a pretty obvious error to use a 40A breaker on #10 for anyone who's done this type of work in the past. You still have to confirm this though.

Hope that's the case. It appears there was an existing 40 amp circuit breaker on the panel already. I can make out a "4..." on it.

 

[Wennfred]

Don't want to start a new topic on this so here it goes,

I want to connect my 30A Bosch Power Max to a 50amp breaker with 6-2 wire. Is this correct? The plan is to have this set up for future Model E Tesla. 2011 SL, 6.6kw onboard charger.




Fred