Please help! urgent/1 day to take back Leaf. range is awful

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Dennas

Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2013
Messages
6
Location
nashville
I just leased a 2012 Leaf. It came with only 57 miles on it so it's very new. The range we are getting is so bad that we don't think we can keep this car, and I'm wondering if I have a lemon battery or something. I've tested it all day and evening and am still freaked out.

Bottom line is that I've charged up 4 times in 2 days and "added" a total of about 250% of charge. I got that by adding up the difference from the charges that were made: First charge was 100%. Second was from 30 to 87%. Third was from 30 to 93%, and fourth was 30 to 60%.

My range of actual driving by the odometer during the use of those charges is 113 miles. There are currently also 34 miles left on the GoM, and that might actually be accurate since it consistently seems to tell me I'm going to go twice the distance of what I'm actually getting and there should be some padding when I get to "zero". In other words, I'd get to zero after 17 miles and might have another 17 miles in the battery not showing. I would hope.

So anyway that gives me 147 miles at best, for 250% of charge. That's a total range of 59 miles per 100% charge. I can't find anyone on any forum who is getting this bad of a range. I know I'm new to driving an EV, but I've really worked on the technique and it doesn't seem to change my range much. I've been driving around all day on the highway at 60mph and on regular roads going 30-40. We have a few hills here and there. Mostly it's fairly level. I've driven like a granny, taking way too long to get up to speed after a light, using momentum as best I can and seeing only 2 dots on the power meter as much as I can get away with. My Eco Indicator has been way up at 80-90% most of the time except for an incline. In other words, I'm driving so carefully that it's almost impossible to maintain. I've had the climate control on most of the time, because my wife will not tolerate a vehicle that is uncomfortable. We live in a basic middle of the road climate in Tennessee. The last two days have been 40-65 degrees.

If we watch the GoM, we are nervous wrecks, but my worries now are about the actual distance per charge up.

I am also disturbed by the fact that the GoM showed my range as 59 miles at 93% charged! I know its inaccurate but still... The fuel bars were up to only 10 too. Then I drove 22 miles in several different environments, but mostly quiet level country roads at 40mpg and 2 miles of interstate at 60mph.

I ended up with only 5 bars left after those 22 slow and steady miles. That seems to indicate that I get 44 total miles plus the invisible VLB miles (10-15?) after a 93% charge. Is this crazy bad? It seems so to me. They told us we'd have no problem with a rush hour commute of 26 miles each way and no possibility to charge up at work. We were supposed to have room to drop by the grocery on the way home. The one time my wife made the commute, she got home with just 2 bars left, in the red zone.

I cannot begin this EV journey with a full charge range of only 60 miles and lose efficiency from there. If we charge only to 80% and don't fall below 16%, as required to maintain a long battery life, we can only drive 40 miles a day, which is 12 miles shorter than the commute.

Thank you for any advice you can give me. I have tomorrow before my 3 days to return it are up. Unless I get some kind of statement that this is unusual and it needs to be fixed, I'm returning it.
 
If you could find even a 110V outlet at work, then the Leaf would be your best bet. Otherwise, you are not going to be happy with the range of the Leaf. It is too close to your commute distance. You should consider a vehicle with longer range, such as the RAV 4, Volt, or Prius.

Mileage chart:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=101293#p101293" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Note how you still have about 50% power left at 5 bars, and 25% power remaining at 2 bars.

I also suspect that you are not going as slowly as you think. When I started carefully observing speed limits, my Leaf mileage improved markedly. The cabin heater can easily cut mileage by about 15%.
 
Dennas said:
Second was from 30 to 87%. Third was from 30 to 93%, and fourth was 30 to 60%.
...
That's a total range of 59 miles per 100% charge. I can't find anyone on any forum who is getting this bad of a range.
...
I've had the climate control on most of the time, because my wife will not tolerate a vehicle that is uncomfortable. We live in a basic middle of the road climate in Tennessee. The last two days have been 40-65 degrees.
...

I cannot begin this EV journey with a full charge range of only 60 miles and lose efficiency from there. If we charge only to 80% and don't fall below 16%, as required to maintain a long battery life, we can only drive 40 miles a day, which is 12 miles shorter than the commute.
How are you determining those values of 30, 93%, and so on?

Have you looked at Tony's range chart at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=101293" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?

I think a Leaf owner needs to really come up with and own a standard questionnaire like what I proposed at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=261466#p261466" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and get it stickied. The posts by Tony at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=261496#p261496" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and a few that follow may be useful.

I bet the heater is helping kill your range.

What range were you expecting?

As for the bolded part, why do you care? You're leasing it. Charge it up to 100%, just don't let it sit at 100% for too long.
 
MaxPower said:
If you could find even a 110V outlet at work, then the Leaf would be your best bet. Otherwise, you are not going to be happy with the range of the Leaf. It is too close to your commute distance. You should consider a vehicle with longer range, such as the RAV 4, Volt, or Prius.
...
I also suspect that you are not going as slowly as you think. When I started carefully observing speed limits, my Leaf mileage improved markedly. The cabin heater can easily cut mileage by about 15%.

Thank you! I thought I had done enough research and the dealer said we'd get 80 miles a day no problem on the commute. He was wrong. I did notice that and had looked at that chart. It's very helpful. It is very reassuring to get your feedback.

I have been going less than the speed limit all day, ha ha! I usually go right at it or 5 miles over. It does make a noticeable difference if I am on a long straight flat road and going a steady moderate speed. But rush hour doesn't really allow for that.

As for percentages, I'm using pitifully executed math, no doubt, but that's what the quick charger at the Nissan headquarters told me.
 
I did not realize that the ranges people discuss were for freezing your toes off in the winter and having heat stroke in the summer. Southern California would be better for this, I'm sure. The heater was taking about 8 miles off according to the GoM at high SOC.

I care about the batteries because I don't want them to degrade before my lease is up. But I don't know enough about it. You have a good point there.
 
Dennas said:
Thank you! I thought I had done enough research and the dealer said we'd get 80 miles a day no problem on the commute. He was wrong. I did notice that and had looked at that chart. It's very helpful. It is very reassuring to get your feedback.

I have been going less than the speed limit all day, ha ha! I usually go right at it or 5 miles over.
I think people will want to know your miles/kwh from the dash display, not Carwings.

80 miles? Depends on the speeds. I posted a poll at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=11201" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; as I got tired of hearing Nissan reps at auto shows (I wouldn't be surprised if they're contractors) telling people "100 miles average/on average". :roll:

Perhaps you should forget the '12 and wait for the '13 Leaf and get the SV or SL trim so you'll get the more efficient heat pump heater. See http://sfbayleafs.org/news/2013/01/2013-nissan-leaf-model-overview/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://sfbayleafs.org/news/2013/01/2013-nissan-leaf-product-highlights/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
 
Dennas said:
I did not realize that the ranges people discuss were for freezing your toes off in the winter and having heat stroke in the summer.
Freezing your toes... yes. Using the heater drastically reduces your range. I try to do without & just use the heated seats & steering wheel. I wear hat, gloves, and a coat. But not everybody is committed enough to do that.

In the summer, use the AC all you want - it is very efficient, and hardly affects the range.

Note that temperature appears to have a PROFOUND effect on range. Where are you located? If you're driving in below-freezing weather with the heater on, then I can see getting ~60 miles on a single charge. Going slower means that the heater is running longer, so your mileage still won't be all that great. Try turning off the climate control altogether if possible and see if you get better results.
 
He said Tennessee and also mentioned Nissan HQ's quick charger.

OP, can you update your location info? It's easy to miss if we haven't read the posts carefully.
 
As for your salesman who said 80 miles, no problem... that's a joke. I never recommend a Leaf to anyone who has a round-trip commute of more than 40 miles. It just isn't practical for the average driver. Yes, you can pull off more if you know how to hypermile and are willing to live without climate control. But we know most people won't do those things. I'm not sure I could get 80 miles out of my leaf even under ideal circumstances. 75 is about the most I'd ever attempt even on a day that required no climate control and on a level 40-mile-per-hour road.
 
cwerdna said:
I think people will want to know your miles/kwh from the dash display, not Carwings.

great links. thanks.

I'm at 3.1/kwh according to the dash display and an average of 15.5 mph over the last 180 miles. Told you I was slow but that kind of surprised me.
:shock:

So, according to the chart, I'm getting the pedal to the metal 75 mph worst-case scenario for m/kwh but barely moving down the road at 15 mpg. Seems pretty bad to me. Can I make a case for this not being normal behavior for such a brand spanking new battery?

One last note, the Nissan range scenarios:
http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/range" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
show my 15 mph and 62 mile range as a scenario, but it's 14 degrees and stop and go traffic jam style driving. I'm doing the most leisurely driving style you can imagine without being on one very long road, but just a few stops. I am about to go do my last test and it's 32 degrees.
 
cwerdna said:
I think a Leaf owner needs to really come up with and own a standard questionnaire...

Hmm. Perhaps a small program or a spreadsheet that asks a few questions like:

How far is you daily commute (one way)?
How far are other drives might you want to take in this car on a regular basis?
How fast is your commute?
Do you have charging at work?
If so, is the charging at work something that would be reasonable every day?
Where do you live? (Or maybe just get a result from Stoaty's battery life estimate?)
Lease only or plan to own?
When it is cold, do you crank up the heat or defrost only when needed?
Some questions about charge stop tolerance.

Then does a few computations and maps into :
(green) (No problem, lots of margin)
(yellow) (think twice)
(red)(Danger Will Robertson!)

Someone in a mild climate and driving 5 miles one way is green. Someone in a moderate climate, with no charging at or near work, commuting 25 miles one way is at least in the yellow.
 
3.1 mi/kWh is actually just ok and not all that great. I drive almost exclusively highways for my commute and othe trips (its Texas, its all spread out) and am able to hit 4.0 mi/kWh on average and I rarely drive in ECO either. Either your hills are worse than you thought, the temperature is worse than you thought, your driving is not as good as you think, or the climate control is eatting you alive.

With good EV drving (notice not insane - I use 3-4 bubbles of power regularly, go the speed limit [average of 60 mph for my commute], use climate control, but moderate) I hit the 4.0 mi/kWh.

You will notice that temperature drops are very larage effects on range, especially if the battery is cold. Wind makes a huge difference too for each 5 mph headwind you are really like driving 5 mph more. Once you hit highway speeds each 5 mph exponentially increases your energy requirements.

Finally, those QC charging %? So wrong and often incorrect. Showing 90% at a QC is usually about 80% for myself.
 
I'm a new Leaf (2012 MY) owner up in Ottawa, Canada. I got the car last week on a day when the high temperature was -17 degrees F (-27 degrees celsius). The first day I got 47 miles on a 100% charge - arrived at home with 1 bar left, at -17 degrees F, with climate control on 100% of the time. Energy efficiency was 2.3 miles / KwH.

Next day it was -4 degrees F. I got 56 miles on a 100% charge with 100% climate control - arrived with 1 bar left. Energy efficiency was 2.7 miles / KwH.

Yesterday it was 30 degrees F. I got 83 miles on a 100% charge with 100% climate control - though it didn't kick in too much - arrive with 2 bars left. Energy efficiency was 3.7 miles / KwH.

This morning it was 35 degrees F. The days not done yet, so I can't say how much range I will get with how many bars. But my morning 17 mile commute took 3 bars, climate control on but didn't work too hard... Energy efficiency was 4.2 miles / KwH.

All driving was done in Eco mode, at speeds of around 40 - 50 miles per hour.

I'm not 100% sure of what I conclude from all of this, but there is at least one thing that seems very clear: Low temperatures really reduce range, both due to increased use of climate control, but also reduced battery capacity. However, this is only dramatic at levels below 30 F, IMO. I imagine that this is not your case in Tennessee, correct? So it seems very odd that you are getting such a low range...

Two theories that perhaps other more knowledgeable people can chime in on:

- I found that my brakes were odd when I first got the car. I had never driven anything with regenerative braking, so I wasn't sure; but there seemed to be a little too much drag. On the third day I had the car, at one point I applied the brakes pretty hard - it seemed like the brakes caught something; there was a metallic screeching sound, and then it went away after about 2-3 seconds. And since then the drag seems to be gone and my energy efficiency is better... Someone up here suggested that maybe the brakes on the new car were a little "sticky" and causing drag. Perhaps you should go to your dealer and get this checked out.

- I also had an interesting comment from a fellow Leaf driver up here on our Canadian Leaf FB page, saying that the GoM gives you some bizarre read outs over the few weeks or so until the GoM "adapts to you driving style" and takes this into account. For example, the car at first assumes that you will drive in a certain way, but if you drive more efficiently eventually the GoM will adjust and the guesstimate range will be higher after you charge...

Not sure if this helps...
 
What does the power use screen say about climate control, etc. You probably have the heater on and that is killing your range.

Also, ignore the GOM.
 
No problems, your LEAF is fine for how you're driving it.

Running the heat will get you the range you're indicating.

I live in TN too. I often make trips to Nashville, so I know the area/climate.

In Nashville, there are level 2 plugs everywhere, DCQC at Nissan HQ & Smyrna plant, Cracker Barrel on I-40 just leaving town going east (Stewarts Ferry Pike exit) & a new one about to open right across from Carnival Kia on Bell Road (I-24)

That being said, your range will increase alot when the leaves start to come back on the trees, but you're actually doing pretty well for running the heater. Try to preheat in the morning & get by on seat warmers and heated steering wheel for as long as you can on your morning commute. Also, if your boss will let you charge 110 at work would be nice & also be sure to preheat the car while you're still plugged in before leaving work.

Winter is a bit of a challenge for a LEAF, but you can do it. I haven't driven my Accord in 2 1/2 months & I've put 5000 miles on my LEAF.

Ignore the GOM, experience will tell you how many miles per battery bar you will get according to miles/kwh.

Philip
 
Dennas said:
I've had the climate control on most of the time, because my wife will not tolerate a vehicle that is uncomfortable. We live in a basic middle of the road climate in Tennessee. The last two days have been 40-65 degrees.
You and your wife might be better off with a 2013 model. The Heat pump on the 2013 does not use near as much energy as the resistance heater in the 2012.
 
I have a 2012 SL with 8500 miles on now. We moved to Georgia last August. Before that we lived in NH. We were getting 5 or so Mi/Kw there but where we drove it was pretty flat. Here in GA it is more hilly and we are getting around 4.2 mi/Kw. It isn't terribly cold here but it has been hovering near 35 to 40 for most of January.

I charge to 80% every day except for Saturday when I charge to 100%. We have a lot of errands on Saturday which we can't do during the week. One saturday in December we drove a total or 88.8 miles on one 100% charge. No heater was necessary because of temps. Just to say what is possible with the LEAF.

My wife drives this car during the week, generally she drives 35 or so miles each day. We often have 35 to 40 miles on the GOM at the end of the day. I figure we are getting between 60 and 70 miles on an 80% charge.

Reading about the brake comment above makes me wonder if the rotors could be rusty from being on the car dealer's lot. It might be worth a trip to the dealer to see if they can find something wrong.
 
jimcmorr said:
Reading about the brake comment above makes me wonder if the rotors could be rusty from being on the car dealer's lot. It might be worth a trip to the dealer to see if they can find something wrong.
My prius used to develop rusty brakes from not being used much since I was always put a lot of effort into getting the most regen possible. Every month or two I'd end up going down the freeway and taking an off-ramp at 75mph. I'd put the car in neutral so there would be no regen, then ride the breaks to a stop. That would usually fix it.
 
Dennas said:
cwerdna said:
I think people will want to know your miles/kwh from the dash display, not Carwings.

great links. thanks.

I'm at 3.1/kwh according to the dash display and an average of 15.5 mph over the last 180 miles. Told you I was slow but that kind of surprised me.
:shock:
Most drivers of ANY car would be similarly surprised by their *average* speed. That's the average for all the amount of time the car was on, including stop lights, etc... That average number really doesn't say much about energy use.
So, according to the chart, I'm getting the pedal to the metal 75 mph worst-case scenario for m/kwh but barely moving down the road at 15 [MPH].
No, the data does not suggest that. You can't use the "average speed" that way.
Seems pretty bad to me. Can I make a case for this not being normal behavior for such a brand spanking new battery?
I know you're very anxious right now but you need to calm down and learn a bit more about how to understand the relationship between efficiency (miles per kWH) and capacity (kWH), and how to gauge your car's capacity. You're mixing a lot of terms and not really dealing with solid info. The car doesn't help, with its guess-o-meter and "bars", but there is plenty of info on this forum to help you understand how it really works. It's to early to conclude you have a low-performing car because you really have not approached the analysis in a rigorous way yet.

Short-term recommendations

- Pre-heat the car while still attached to "shore power". The most heater draw is when first warming things up. A good long pre-heat will warm up everything inside and the car will stay comfortable for quite a while without drawing a lot of battery power.

- use Eco mode. Among other things this will limit the heater to about 1.5kW, so will at least limit your range loss to about 4 miles per hour of operation. The car might not get as warm as you'd prefer but it should be tolerable. The heated steering wheel and heated seats go a long way towards keeping you comfortable with a lower cabin temp and they consume very little power.

- If using heat, set to minimum. This means 60F. A lot of people think that the fan speed controls the energy use. It has more to do with the difference between the set temp and the outside temp. Again, heated wheel and seats. Note, if you pre-heated, reduce from 77F to 60F gradually as the cabin loses heat. You don't want to be actively cooling the warm cabin to get DOWN to 60. If window fogging is not a problem you can just leave the heat OFF after the preheat until the cabin gets chilly.

- Check your tire pressures. I run mine at the manufacturers maximum pressure (44psi listed on the sidewall). Not only does this lower rolling resistance, but I find it improves the handling. Some people are against this, so read up and draw your own conclusions.
 
Dennas said:
As for percentages, I'm using pitifully executed math, no doubt, but that's what the quick charger at the Nissan headquarters told me.
AFAIK, all quick chargers over-report the SOC %! I know this is true for the Blink QC's I've used and understand that the Leaf itself under-reports to the QC which dutifully reports that number to the user.

If you're showing 10 bars, there's no way you're at 93%!
 
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