Post Your Battery Degradation Results

[TomT]

Yep, that is exactly my experience here. I'm anticipating dropping my fourth bar a few months before my four year lease is up...

one factor that counters this trend for bars 3 and 4 is that as you lose more and more capacity, one would tend to do more charges to 100% rather than 80% and perform more charge cycles in a given time period as you compensate for less range.

 

[dgpcolorado]

...btw, did the P3227 update today & there was no change to the Ahr reading (unlike most experience reported on the forum)

I also saw no change at all for the Amp hour reading before and after. Forty-eight miles and several hours later it had gone up quite a bit, before beginning the usual downward trend.

As has been said by others, it seems to take time for the new software to become acclimated to the battery measurements.

 

[Stoaty]

Here are my latest figures:

Months owned - 27
AH - 57.24 (86.4% of 66.25)
Gids at 100% charge - 239 (85.1% of 281)
Gids at 80% charge - 201 (86.6% of 232)

In spite of babying my Leaf as much as possible, I am now on the "glide path" of Palmdale, CA with a predicted years to EOF of 10.1 years and 93,000 miles--even though my Leaf spends most of its life in a parking garage in West Los Angeles. Since my efforts don't appear to have accomplished that much in terms of slowing capacity loss, I am throwing in the towel. While I will still drive conservatively (gotta keep my 5.6 mile/kwh average up), I am not going to worry about parking in the sun or taking my Leaf to hot locations.

 

[opencar]

you pegged it! took a couple days and now my readings are substantially higher. from other people's feedback, seems like it'll take several weeks before settling into pre-update readings. i was a 54.8 Ahr prior to the update & i hear the 2nd bar loss is somewhere around 51 Ahr.

...btw, did the P3227 update today & there was no change to the Ahr reading (unlike most experience reported on the forum)

I also saw no change at all for the Amp hour reading before and after. Forty-eight miles and several hours later it had gone up quite a bit, before beginning the usual downward trend.

As has been said by others, it seems to take time for the new software to become acclimated to the battery measurements.

 

[opencar]

your AH reading seems too high to lose the first bar; are you still coming off the 'high' induced by P3227?

Here are my latest figures:

Months owned - 27
AH - 57.24 (86.4% of 66.25)
Gids at 100% charge - 239 (85.1% of 281)
Gids at 80% charge - 201 (86.6% of 232)

In spite of babying my Leaf as much as possible, I am now on the "glide path" of Palmdale, CA with a predicted years to EOF of 10.1 years and 93,000 miles--even though my Leaf spends most of its life in a parking garage in West Los Angeles. Since my efforts don't appear to have accomplished that much in terms of slowing capacity loss, I am throwing in the towel. While I will still drive conservatively (gotta keep my 5.6 mile/kwh average up), I am not going to worry about parking in the sun or taking my Leaf to hot locations.

 

[TomT]

Yep, I have given it up too.

Since my efforts don't appear to have accomplished that much in terms of slowing capacity loss, I am throwing in the towel. I am not going to worry about parking in the sun or taking my Leaf to hot locations.

 

[surfingslovak]

In spite of babying my Leaf as much as possible, I am now on the "glide path" of Palmdale, CA with a predicted years to EOF of 10.1 years and 93,000 miles--even though my Leaf spends most of its life in a parking garage in West Los Angeles. Since my efforts don't appear to have accomplished that much in terms of slowing capacity loss, I am throwing in the towel. While I will still drive conservatively (gotta keep my 5.6 mile/kwh average up), I am not going to worry about parking in the sun or taking my Leaf to hot locations.

I think you have done admirably well, when compared to others in a similar situation and climate. Obviously, it's every owner's prerogative what they do with their vehicle, but what might be contributing to the disappointment in your case is that the battery is not holding up as well as we anticipated. This is unfortunate, since the model you did so much great work on was indirectly based and calibrated on what Nissan said (in public and in private).

I think what was often lost in translation is that the situation in Phoenix is like an accelerated battery aging test. If the packs there live significantly shorter life than expected, this means that they will live a proportionally shorter life elsewhere. While the results of your efforts might be disappointing, I believe that on a relative scale, it could have been worse. Personally, I really wish that Nissan would complete the development of the new "hot battery" and used it in every vehicle. I think they have enough data to support that decision.

I'm not sure what the cost difference might be, but if it was $200 or $300, do you think the expense would be justifiable to make the packs last longer and be more heat resistant?

 

[Stoaty]

your AH reading seems too high to lose the first bar; are you still coming off the 'high' induced by P3227?

I haven't lost the first bar yet, but it is getting close. At the rate my AH reading has been decreasing lately (1 AH every 3-4 weeks) it won't be long until the first bar is lost. No, I am not still coming off the "high" (which increased my Gids, but didn't effect my AH much). The Gids went up to 220 after the update (for 80% charge), now down to 201. They were at around 208 before the update. The AH reading was 59+ about 2 months ago, now decreasing by about 0.05 AH per day.

 

[Stoaty]

...but what might be contributing to the disappointment in your case is that the battery is not holding up as well as we anticipated. This is unfortunate, since the model you did so much great work on was indirectly based and calibrated on what Nissan said (in public and in private).

Yes, the model was based on the info TickTock got from the Nissan engineer... which now looks to be quite optimistic.

I think what was often lost in translation is that the situation in Phoenix is like an accelerated battery aging test. If the packs there live significantly shorter life than expected, this means that they will live a proportionally shorter life elsewhere. While the results of your efforts might be disappointing, I believe that on a relative scale, it could have been worse.

Agreed, I could have done a lot worse. It appears that the model needs to be tweaked to more accurately reflect reality. Not sure how to do that, though.

Personally, I really wish that Nissan would complete the development of the new "hot battery" and used it in every vehicle. I think they have enough data to support that decision. I'm not sure what the cost difference might be, but if it was $200 or $300, do you think the expense would be justifiable to make the packs last longer and be more heat resistant?

If what Nissan says about their "hot" battery is true, I think that $1,000 - $2,000 extra would be justifiable, since it appears from the research paper referenced in the Wiki that the electrolyte tweak doubled the life of the battery. Adding in the ceramic coated separator should make it even better. The problem is that I will now have a hard time believing what Nissan says about the new battery. I would like to see a special deal on the new battery for those that purchased the Leaf rather than leasing.

 

[downeykp]

+1
We were all naive to believe what Nissan was telling us. Was everything they told us ambiguous on purpose? I believe we all know the answer to this question.
As an owner I hope they do something to right their wrong. But I am not holding my breath.

 

[TomT]

Yep, I need to see a track record first... "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice..."

The problem is that I will now have a hard time believing what Nissan says about the new battery.

 

[TickTock]

...but what might be contributing to the disappointment in your case is that the battery is not holding up as well as we anticipated. This is unfortunate, since the model you did so much great work on was indirectly based and calibrated on what Nissan said (in public and in private).

Yes, the model was based on the info TickTock got from the Nissan engineer... which now looks to be quite optimistic.

Remember that even at the time of my interview, I was well below the curve and the explanation was my annual mileage was larger than "typical."

 

[surfingslovak]

Remember that even at the time of my interview, I was well below the curve and the explanation was my annual mileage was larger than "typical."

Good point, and that may be true in Phoenix and for you individually. I'm not disputing that, and continue to be appreciative of all the data you have collected and shared on the forum. That said, I think there is a general concern building, as we see more signs that the longevity of the pack might be shorter than anticipated. This is somewhat anecdotal, but there is an owner in the relatively cool SF Bay Area, who has lost a bar after 25 months of ownership and 21,783 miles. He is a long-time EV driver, and one could expect that he knows how to take care of his LEAF. There are several owners in Seattle, who have lost a bar this summer. While most of them are heavy commuters, I found it surprising to hear. Personally, I thought that the PNW will not be affected until year three or four. The model Stoaty built was specifically calibrated to reflect our collective learnings last year. This model takes mileage into account as well, I believe. What we see in the second and third year of LEAF ownership appears to be worse than what the model had predicted. And by a significant margin.

 

[Weatherman]

Perhaps for those. in relatively mild climates, seeing "premature" capacity losses, the first question should be, "Have you had the battery capacity software update done yet?"

I lost my first bar back in early June, before I got the software update. After the update, I didn't get the 12th bar back, but, according to the LEAF battery app, my Ahr reading was in the mid 57s, far higher than would be expected for the first bar to fall (unfortunately, I didn't have the app before the update, so I don't know what the Ahr reading was when the 12th bar was lost).

After three, warm months, my battery's Ahr reading has drifted down in the mid 55s, which is about where the first bar should have gone away. I suppose it's possible that if I had had the software update done before the 12th bar disappeared, it would still be around, today (although its days would be numbered).

 

[mkjayakumar]

Lost my 2nd bar at 18 months and 21.5K miles. The first one I lost at 18k miles about 2 months ago..

So it only took about 2 months and 3500 miles to lose the 2nd bar, and of course with generous help from several 100F+ degree weather and 5 days a week 100% charges in the mornings. I keep the car outside to cool it down to an ambient high 70s in the morning and charge in L1.

Three more months I will turn this Leaf back and not sure what I am going to do next. Go for the next Leaf right away or wait for the so called improved 'hot' battery in mid 2014 ...?

I was hoping that I would jump into a Rav4 but that is not panning out either with the Toyota's CARB attitude.

 

[surfingslovak]

Perhaps for those. in relatively mild climates, seeing "premature" capacity losses, the first question should be, "Have you had the battery capacity software update done yet?"

Yes, and would not rule that possibility out. That said, we had a variety of experiences with the update, including Dave in Olympia, who believes that he is actually doing worse after the update than before.

After three, warm months, my battery's Ahr reading has drifted down in the upper 55s, which is about where the first bar should have gone away. I suppose it's possible that if I had had the software update done before the 12th bar disappeared, it would still be around, today (although its days would be numbered).

I think we are fixated on bars a bit, but perhaps the terms on the new capacity warranty did little to help shift the focus away from it. What's of interest is how much capacity the battery is losing and how quickly given a certain climatic impact. Also, if there was any leveling effect or not. The owner in the Bay Area had a garage with Western exposure, much like Scott in Phoenix. It's conceivable that the higher temps in his garage contributed to faster than anticipated capacity loss. He certainly is not a heavy commuter, and the total mileage on his LEAF reflects that. They just leased another EV and the LEAF might see even fewer miles now. This could be potentially the saving grace. As the LEAF loses range and owners shift their usage to other vehicles, we could see less capacity loss over time.

 

[Weatherman]

They just leased another EV and the LEAF might see even fewer miles now. This could be potentially the saving grace. As the LEAF loses range and owners shift their usage to other vehicles, we could see less capacity loss over time.

Maybe a little, but depending on the temperature, not much.

I drove my Volt, almost exclusively, over the past two weeks, and thought the LEAF's battery degradation would slow down a bit. No such luck. It was still dropping Ahr at a rate of about 0.03/day by just sitting there with a 50%-charged battery. Wasn't even out in the sun during that time (I moved it into the garage during the day while I took the Volt to work and moved it back outside at night). The reason was simple. The battery temp was hovering in the upper 80s to near 90 the entire time.

 

[mkjayakumar]

In four months this summer from May thru July, I drove 6K miles, charged to 100% 5 days a week in the morning, and lost 2 bars and 35 Gids from 252 to 217 this morning.I will be at 210 before summer winds down. And that a loss of 15% in the 2nd summer.

Great job Nissan.

 

[smkettner]

Today was the first day that it took two bars to get 10.5 miles to work. Mostly level, mostly 60mph, climate control running at modest temp.
Sorry no fancy meters.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Any 2013's out there that have lost a bar yet? It would have to be a very heavy driver, likely in a warm climate.