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surfingslovak said:
... Looking at the temperature profile for Rancho Penasquitos, it appears that if we computed the effective temperature for that location, Stoaty's model would return a higher loss, which would be closer in line with the capacity bar loss you just experienced.

The model predicts my loss at 11.33% and my actual loss is 13.78%. I suspect Stoaty's model would predict a higher loss for me if we computed the effective temperature for my location which is Singing Hills/Rancho San Diego (about 20 miles from the coast).
 
rickbecker said:
The model predicts my loss at 11.33% and my actual loss is 13.78%. I suspect Stoaty's model would predict a higher loss for me if we computed the effective temperature for my location which is Singing Hills/Rancho San Diego (about 20 miles from the coast).
Yes, thank you for that information, Rick! I tried to pull up long-term averages for Rancho San Diego and Spring Valley, but weatherspark.com simply returns the data for San Diego. I had better luck getting the temperature profile for El Cajon, which might be reasonably close to your location.

El Cajon, CA
elcajonweatherspark
caplossmnl
 
surfingslovak said:
rickbecker said:
The model predicts my loss at 11.33% and my actual loss is 13.78%. I suspect Stoaty's model would predict a higher loss for me if we computed the effective temperature for my location which is Singing Hills/Rancho San Diego (about 20 miles from the coast).
Yes, thank you for that information, Rick! I tried to pull up long-term averages for Rancho San Diego and Spring Valley, but weatherspark.com simply returns the data for San Diego. I had better luck getting the temperature profile for El Cajon, which might be reasonably close to your location.

El Cajon, CA
elcajonweatherspark
caplossmnl
That is more appropriate than the San Diego location as I am just east of El Cajon in the foothills. I am at an elevation that is about 600 ft higher than El Cajon and our high temperatures tend to be a bit lower.
 
1/1/2012 Delivery (2 years old)
Mileage 19261
AH-63.86 SOH 97%
80% charges except once a week 50 mile RT normally
North Idaho
 
Now that I have the Leaf DD device, here's an update on the state of my battery as of 12/13/2013 (after 80% charge):

S=79.87
GIDS=190
AH=54.00
Health=66.36
12V battery=11.5V
Bat temp=58.6
 
My Gid data for the past 600 days. I'm at about 40 months; ~29.5k miles; SoCal-91208.
Blue is 100% charge; Red is 80%.
Looks like I'm down almost 13% with what appears to be some acceleration in SOC loss. Hanging on to 12 capacity bars by fingernails it seems. That 1st bar should be a goner by August.

As mentioned previously, for SoCal, my LEAF sees cooler average temps than many here. At home, it's parked outside in the shade and sits in an open-air parking structure during work-days. Did a decent range check to/from Gary's LEAF meeting in Cerritos yesterday. That's just over 60 mi R/T, all freeway. Perfect temps, no wind but a solid uphill climb on the way home. Arrived with 2 bars which is a bar short of what I recall for that drive. I think 60 mi of freeway is about my max comfort-zone range now.
I don't know how you do it every day mwalsh!


hy89.png
 
sparky said:
That's just over 60 mi R/T, all freeway. Perfect temps, no wind but a solid uphill climb on the way home. Arrived with 2 bars which is a bar short of what I recall for that drive. I think 60 mi of freeway is about my max comfort-zone range now.
Two bars! That's probably 15mi+ of range left! What speed were you doing on the freeway?

Your LEAF is doing much better than typical for SoCal - parking in a shaded parking structure and outside at night is definitely helping a lot.

sparky said:
I don't know how you do it every day mwalsh!
It's a lot easier when you ease into it over 3 years.

For comparison, here's the chart of my car since I started taking measurements. Big jump before July '13 is getting the last firmware update.

LEAF-battery-stats-20140413.png
 
drees said:
sparky said:
That's just over 60 mi R/T, all freeway. Perfect temps, no wind but a solid uphill climb on the way home. Arrived with 2 bars which is a bar short of what I recall for that drive. I think 60 mi of freeway is about my max comfort-zone range now.
Two bars! That's probably 15mi+ of range left! What speed were you doing on the freeway?
Coming home, I was worried about making it but the traffic on I-5 helped; with long stretches of 50 mph max. I averaged 4.2 mi/kwH.

drees said:
Your LEAF is doing much better than typical for SoCal - parking in a shaded parking structure and outside at night is definitely helping a lot.
Agree. Plus we don't do anything else to baby it. Charge to 100% 2-3 days a week and typical mi/kWh is 3.3 since my wife drives it like a slot car.

drees said:
For comparison, here's the chart of my car since I started taking measurements. Big jump before July '13 is getting the last firmware update.
I only have the first firmware update (Jan-2012), didn't bother with any more. Car has been flawless except for range loss. My Tesla, after about 12 mo, is showing about 264 mi, rated range, vs 271 when new. We'll see how that compares after another year.
 
sparky said:
My Tesla, after about 12 mo, is showing about 264 mi, rated range, vs 271 when new. We'll see how that compares after another year.

My wife's Volt is showing down from ~41 miles new (8.5 months ago) to ~38 miles pretty consistently now, so off around 7% (if the numbers are believable at face value).

Don't know if it's the way she's driving it now vs. over the winter (there is likely more climate control usage now); the pack being protected during the heat wave(s) we've been having recently; the fact that it's not been charged from completely depleted for a while; a bit of battery degradation; or some combination of all of the above.
 
mwalsh said:
My wife's Volt is showing down from ~41 miles new (8.5 months ago) to ~38 miles pretty consistently now, so off around 7% (if the numbers are believable at face value).

Don't know if it's the way she's driving it now vs. over the winter (there is likely more climate control usage now); the pack being protected during the heat wave(s) we've been having recently; the fact that it's not been charged from completely depleted for a while; a bit of battery degradation; or some combination of all of the above.

The Volt's GOM is a bit like the LEAF's GOM. It calculates range based on recent driving behavior. Fortunately, the Volt GOM's drift is glacial compared to the LEAF's GOM mercurial behavior. I've seen full charge estimates anywhere from the upper 30s to lower 40s. Even with the Florida heat, there has been no trend over the past year.
 
Not sure if anyone is updating the Real World Battery Capacity Loss table, but we've lost the 3rd bar on 5/10 at 34,500 miles. LEAF was 30 months old at the time.
 
2011 Nissan Leaf now being used as a taxi in the UK with just over 32,000 miles on the clock. Getting regular rapid charges per shift (3 or more). A lot of the time these can be 15 minutes (or less) 'top up charges' between jobs.

Just ran the LeafSpy app for the first time and it shows a AHr of 59.34 & GIDs 247 (87.9%).
 
uktaxi said:
2011 Nissan Leaf now being used as a taxi in the UK with just over 32,000 miles on the clock. Getting regular rapid charges per shift (3 or more). A lot of the time these can be 15 minutes (or less) 'top up charges' between jobs.

Just ran the LeafSpy app for the first time and it shows a AHr of 59.34 & GIDs 247 (87.9%).
Wow . . . . top up to 100% ??
Supposedly, even topping via L2 can decrease capacity longevity. I can't imagine what'd happen doing DC 3x a day - day in & day out. At least the UK has colder atmospheric temps to minimize the negative impact.
.
 
uktaxi said:
2011 Nissan Leaf now being used as a taxi in the UK with just over 32,000 miles on the clock. Getting regular rapid charges per shift (3 or more). A lot of the time these can be 15 minutes (or less) 'top up charges' between jobs.

Just ran the LeafSpy app for the first time and it shows a AHr of 59.34 & GIDs 247 (87.9%).

Thanks for the report.

Hope you will come back with more in the future.

First, realize that the app is not measuring your battery capacity, it is only displaying what your LEAF's own battery management system is reporting, along with whatever errors the cheap instrumentation produces.

The limited accuracy of using the "gid" count as an indication of actual battery capacity has been known for years.

Ingineer:

The biggest problem with the Leaf's Instrumentation/BMS (in my opinion) is the use of the Hall-effect current sensor. These are not very accurate for coulomb counting and subject to accuracy degrading effects, such as centerline drift, effects of the earths magnetic field, temperature, etc. The inaccuracy of this is why "some gids are more equal than others". Nissan compensates for this inaccuracy by applying corrections to the SoC by sampling voltage and using it formulas that also take into account the temperature, internal resistance, aging, etc. This is why you can gain/lose SoC suddenly sometimes after power cycling. It will apply changes all at once if the car is power cycled, but if in use, it will apply a correction in the form of a drift which appears as faster/slower SoC counting than real energy out/in.

I was able to meet with the Nissan engineers from Japan last December, including the battery system engineer (I had a one-on-one with him). Their explanation for why we have no direct SoC display in the car was basically that they were afraid to show it and have these corrections occasionally make it "jump" which would "confuse the customer". The Battery Systems Engineer told me that cost was the reason they used the Hall-Effect current counter rather than a more-accurate galvanic shunt...
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=10040&start=61" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Second, look at the AVT test results of capacity loss through 50 k miles in batteries with atypical use patterns similar to yours:

http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/energystorage/DCFC_Study_FactSheet_50k.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As discussed here:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=14271&start=20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You can see the relatively slow loss of capacity except during the seasonal periods when they experienced very high battery temperatures caused both by high kWh throughput (multiple L2 or DC sessions and high miles driven daily) and extremely high ambient (Phoenix extended Summer) temperatures.

During the 10,000 mile driving segments where the batteries were not subjected to high ambient temperatures, capacity loss was only in the ~2 to 3 percent range, even for the LEAFs subject to twice daily DC charges from ~driven-until-stop SOC to "100%"

So, you should be able use the App to monitor your batteries temperature this summer to get a good idea of what to expect in terms of future actual capacity loss.

When was the Cab first put into service?

Has it already gone through a Summer of DC charging and high daily miles?

Have you observed any loss of range?
 
hill said:
Wow . . . . top up to 100% ??
Supposedly, even topping via L2 can decrease capacity longevity. I can't imagine what'd happen doing DC 3x a day - day in & day out. At least the UK has colder atmospheric temps to minimize the negative impact.
I doubt it's much of an issue here since he likely drives it immediately down to a lower SOC. By "top up" he probably does not mean charge up to 100%, either.

And as the INL study shows, it's mostly temperature and time that causes the bulk of capacity loss, not QC use.
 
So I charged up my 1 month old 2014 SL last night to 100% for the first time and got the numbers listed below in my signature. I thought they were a little low for a basically new car, but I am not sure. I measured it with LeafSpy Pro after charging with a L1.
I charged it again to make sure it was at 100% and balanced as well.

On a side note, it showed 1 QC/49 L1L2. Don't know where the QC came from, my dealer doesn't have one so I am thinking the initial charge from the factory?
 
bbrowncods said:
So I charged up my 1 month old 2014 SL last night to 100% for the first time and got the numbers listed below in my signature. I thought they were a little low for a basically new car, but I am not sure. I measured it with LeafSpy Pro after charging with a L1.
I charged it again to make sure it was at 100% and balanced as well.
Yes, that sounds low. But you are not alone with this in the 2013/2014 LEAFs: 2013 Low Battery Capacity AHr Battery Degradation. You may want to read through that thread and weigh in there.
bbrowncods said:
On a side note, it showed 1 QC/49 L1L2. Don't know where the QC came from, my dealer doesn't have one so I am thinking the initial charge from the factory?
That's interesting since we have the opposite behavior: We have a 2011 LEAF which I QCed for the first time about a month ago, but the QC counter on LeafSpy still shows "0".
 
bbrowncods said:
So I charged up my 1 month old 2014 SL last night to 100% for the first time and got the numbers listed below in my signature. I thought they were a little low for a basically new car, but I am not sure. I measured it with LeafSpy Pro after charging with a L1.
I charged it again to make sure it was at 100% and balanced as well.

On a side note, it showed 1 QC/49 L1L2. Don't know where the QC came from, my dealer doesn't have one so I am thinking the initial charge from the factory?

"2014 Cayenne Red Leaf SL purchased 6/9/2014.
7/4/14 -629 miles, Temp 83, SOC 97.5, 59.81 Ahr, SOH 91%, Hx 91.44, 20.2 Kwh, Avg 4.127, High 4.136, Low 4.122, GIDS 267/92.5%."

That's about what my 2013 Leaf (12/2013) was when I first used the LeafSpy at about 3700 miles.
Now at about 8500 miles the AHrs after a full charge is 58 AHrs (258 GIDs). The first bar 'drops' at about
53 AHrs and every addition bar 'drop' occurs at every 4 AHrs decline.

Doesn't sound good.

My 1st data point post on March 16, 2013:

Vehicle - 2013 SL, Mileage - 3771, Production # - 416635, Date of Pur - 11/22/2013

GIDS - 263, Capacity - 20.3 kWH, SOC - 97%, SOH - 92%, Hx - 92.81%, AHr - 60.49
QCs - 21, L1/L2s - 110, Tire Pressure - 42psi, Average Range - 5.1-5.2miles/kWH
Driving Speed < 55-60mph, Vcell(nominal) - 4.12 volts
 
2012 SV in Atlanta
First bar lost 8.6.13 at 25,300 miles.
2nd bar lost 7.9.14 at 32,850 miles.
Looks like I am on track for a free battery under warranty before I hit 5yrs or 60k.
If the above is a trend, should be 4.4 years and 48k when I lose my 4th bar.
Perhaps ATL heat isn't LEAF-worthy...that'd be a shame for the recent #1 LEAF market in the world.
If anyone can point me to a recently updated chart of bars lost by geography/age/mileage I'd love to see how mine is tracking relative to others in ATL/similar climes.
Thanks!
 
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