Range Chart

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edatoakrun said:
But I can't avoid "coasting" by which mean going down hill, maintaining my desired speed, with light throttle, or while accepting regen to my battery pack. How do you manage to do avoid doing the same...........

On what information or observation is the 1,000 ft./2,000 ft. adjustment for ascent/descent based?

I really think it is significantly understating typical ascent energy recovery, and could be misinforming potential LEAF owners who need to understand how ascent and descent affect range.

I'm not sure I fully understand your position. By coasting, I mean exactly that.... no power or regen, and that can only be done to 100% success in neutral.

The data, like all the data in this chart, is empirical, extrapolated, interpolated, and full of SWAG's. Read through the thread from beginning to end and see how many changes it has gone through.

So far, I'm reasonably comfortable with a rule-of-thumb of one bar per 1000 feet, but the regen is so much more difficult to nail down. 2000 feet descent is purely a SWAG for regen. My hunch is that it's close to about 65%, instead of the 50% that the chart suggests, but that's a bit cumbersome for a rule-of-thumb! (but I'm sure we can make something work).

Anyway, I'm excited that somebody who is intimate with long climbs/descents now has an SOC meter. The data will keep getting refined.
 
drees said:
TonyWilliams said:
Unfortunately, we've had a 231 gid reading with a 100% charge with 12 fuel bars and 12 capacity bars!! So, the reality is that the gids are not rock solid on the fuel bars.
Right - but did that charge seem more like a 10-bar charge or a 12-bar charge in terms of available range? It seems that Gids are a pretty accurate indicator of available range, certainly more accurate than bars when a "full" charge gets you 231 gids instead of close to 280. Look at TickTock's experience, for example...

I think it is TickTock's experience that I'm recalling. Yes, his range was/is in the toilet. But it still showed 12/12 bars, if I recall correctly, at 231 gids.
 
As an aside, is the correct terminology "gid" or "Gid"? I prefer the lower case version, but don't have data to support my preference. :D
 
Why does the metric chart start at speedy 70kmh (45mph) ?
56 kmh (35 miles) would be the most used one where I live at least.

Great chart thou ! :)
 
Nice work!

As a courtesy to the less experienced readers, you might want to define "GIDs" in the first post, as it is not mentioned until page 24! :lol:
 
Branched off from another topic, I was looking for a few points of clarification for the chart.

I've gone through almost all 27 pages of the topic, tracing back to the original chart and seen how several people have some input. I think it's great progress, then again, this is coming from an engineer where we like to see EVERYTHING.

With that being said, I believe the intention was the conservative assumption is that there is 21 kWh of useable energy in the battery pack. However, if you trace from the miles/kWh figures, they are not consistent.

Current numbers are below. (calculated values in parenthesis)
6.3 miles/kWh = 132 range
(6.3 * 21 = 132.3)

5.9 miles/kWh = 121 range
(5.9 * 21 = 123.9)

5.2 miles/kWh = 111 range
(5.2 * 21 = 109.2)

4.6 miles/kWh = 97 range
(4.6* 21 = 96.6)

4.3 miles/kWh = 89 range
(4.3 * 21 = 90.3)

Same for the rest of them on the chart. How were those values calculated? It looks like some round-up and round-down errors (it's not consistent one way or another) if it was calculated via the method above [(miles/kWh) * (useable energy)] = range Otherwise, it should be stated how those miles/kWh figures were associated with estimated max ranges.
 
TonyWilliams said:
edatoakrun said:
But I can't avoid "coasting" by which mean going down hill, maintaining my desired speed, with light throttle, or while accepting regen to my battery pack. How do you manage to do avoid doing the same...........

I'm not sure I fully understand your position. By coasting, I mean exactly that.... no power or regen, and that can only be done to 100% success in neutral.

In the Prius forums the terminology is split something like this:

Coast = foot completely off the pedals letting the car do the minimal regenerative braking programed in to the accelerator pedal.

Glide = foot on the accelerator to the angle required to make sure no regenerative braking occurs and no fuel is being spent. Pedal position varies based on speed and environmental conditions (slope, temp, pavement, etcetera).

If the Leaf has more aggressive regenerative braking at no foot on pedal you might have to adjust the definition of coast for leaf driving but I hope you can see where others are coming from as cars that have regenerative braking are changing terminology because people don't like to have to type any more than necessary (people are lazy).

note: neither of these definitions has anything to do with maintaining a set speed. In fact it is more common in either scenario to gain or lose speed than to maintain it. edatoakrun's usage is unspecific because if his "desired speed" is 80mph then he could be "coasting" with the pedal mashed down quite far indeed.

Maintaining a glide (no regen, no electric, no gas) on a Gen II Prius traveling downhill is rather easy to do with the pedal only. You say the only sure way to do it with the Leaf is to put it in Neutral. Is that because

A. the pedal range for glide on the leaf is narrower than a Prius
B. you are just specifying a technique that removes all other variables (driver skill, slope, pavement, etcetera)
C. you are specifying a technique that addresses a technical difference (something about the leaf makes it unreasonable to try to glide without shifting to Neutral).
 
dhanson865 said:
...Glide = foot on the accelerator to the angle required to make sure no regenerative braking occurs and no fuel is being spent...


Another way of saying "coasting". And yes, this is simple to do in a LEAF, at least to the level of accuracy as reported by the energy usage screen.

I would add, however, that, IMO, the incremental efficiency gains of trying to "glide" or "coast" in A LEAF are so slight, I just don't worry too much about exactly matching the coasting speed that the road provides you with.

In descents, I drive in ECO 99% of the time. This allows immediate use of full regen, and allows immediate acceleration (as opposed to shifting out of neutral) when road conditions require it.

You are still recovering (very nearly) the full energy from the descent, whether you are using slight regen, or slight acceleration, to adjust your speed to whatever you prefer.
 
TNleaf said:
...the conservative assumption is that there is 21 kWh of useable energy in the battery pack. However, if you trace from the miles/kWh figures, they are not consistent.

As you might imagine, even Nissan can't and doesn't provide exact range data (Distance To Empty, DTE, in Nissan talk, per our Dec 3 meeting with the chief engineer). We use our best estimates with the tools we have.

The numbers are rounded to equal whole numbers between bars. At 3.9m/kWh-60mph, 100% is 82 miles and after 4 miles, theres 78 miles at the top of the 11th bar. The chart started out very simple, and I've tried to keep it simple. Of course, 21 * 3.9 is 81.9 miles, so that's close. I don't believe any of the 100% range number exceed a 21 multiple.

BTW, 21 is not conservative. Throw the battery in a -20C environment, and you probably have a 40% reduction in that number (another rule of thumb, 1% reduction below 20C per 1C). Conversely, a 50% reduction in battery capacity from cycles and years in service, and exposure to heat, will not provide a 21 number. Per Mark Perry, yesterday he stated that the battery physically freezes at -30C.

As I state in the notes, 21 is a "factor". It's a starting point to provide a baseline for calculations based on 20C/70F weather, with a new 100% battery. We make adjustments from there. A battery hotter than 20C/70F obviously has more than 21kWh usable, but we don't exactly know the top of that yet. You'll also note that 20C and 70F are not exactly the same. Nor is 1000 feet and 300 meters. They are all intended to be simple enough for my 9 year to quickly and simply figure out, not be an exact number that we probably will never reach.

Look at the tolerance between 3.9 and 4.0... 81.9 to 84 miles at a 21 factor. We don't have the level of a data to begin to get hyper accurate. After our Dec 3 meeting, it's obvious that both Nissan and us are woefully behind in a solution for a hyper accurate range from a battery powered car.
 
Edit - 10 December 2011, Version 7d.
File includes both English and Metric measures, in both PDF format and XLS:

LEAFrangeChartVersion7d.jpg



Range chart in PDF; Metric and English Statute Miles (UK / USA), Version 7d:


http://bayfiles.com/file/1fHn/06grBi/LEAFrangeChartVersion7d.pdf


Range chart in Microsoft Excel; Metric and English Statute Miles (UK / USA), Version 7d:


http://bayfiles.com/file/1fHp/2W2TFk/LEAFrangeChartVersion7d.xls
 
Edit - 21 January 2011- please pencil in a change to the temperature data to reflect:

"5. Temperature Decrease: Subtract 1% loss from range for each 4F/2C below 70F/20C"


This will be reflected in a future Version 7e
 
Thanks again for this range chart. Used it last night when I had an 80 mile round trip for dinner with the in-laws. In heavy, but steadily moving traffic, freeway traffic stayed below an average of forty on the way up, so I knew I could go with the flow on the way back and still get home with a dozen miles on the GOM.

My wife is still convinced that we are going to run out of juice somewhere. She begins to get nervous when her gas gauge gets below half full, so the different way of thinking about fuel capacity that the LEAF requires would make her crazy if she were driving.
 
NYLEAF said:
...is the mi/kwh shown on the Energy/Status screens accurate for use with the range chart?

That reading should be 0.1 miles/kWh higher than the dash mounted reading. Either is fine to use, to be honest, but my data is based on the lower dash mounted info.


I reset both at different times (a few days after getting the car), but after about a week of driving, they've both settled on 4.1 mi/kwh. So, if I multiply 4.1 times 21 (or really more like 18.9 since at 30F there's about a 10% reduction in available energy, right?), I should figure out how far I can go, assuming I keep that same average, correct?


You need to reset from the point where you'll be measuring. That is normally at a 100% or 80% charge. So, fuel up, reset which ever economy meter you wish to use, and use the chart to guess what your miles/kWh might be. Driving down a level road at sea level, with 70F battery temps, nil wind, no climate control, windows up, tires with 36psi or better, no aerodynamic changes to the car (like a roof mounted bike rack with 3 bikes on it), no exceptionally heavy load, etc....

Then, you should be able to count on 3.9 miles/kWh for that portion of the drive done at 60mph. What many folks don't factor is that if you plan 60mph, it might take some stop and go driving before you get to an open highway to drive 60mph. Depending how you drive, that can raise or lower your average when you finally get to 60mph at a steady speed. If you're curious, you can reset one of your economy meters once steady at 60mph on that flat, no wind highway, and it should settle in at 3.9miles/kWh over 10 or more miles. Of course, the center console data will be 0.1 higher, at 4.0.

To calculate your overall range, I think you got it right. Using the economy meter that was reset at 100%, simply multiply by 21. For 80% charges, use 17. So, 3.9*21=82 miles of range from 100% charge and 3.9*17 for 80%, or 66.3 miles.

Adjustments for temp are based on the battery temperature. Unfortunately, that's a bit difficult to determine without an accurate battery temperature gauge. Generally, if the car hasn't been charged or driven for 8 hours overnight, and was sitting outside, the battery is probably "cold soaked" at ambient air temperature. I say overnight, because even cold temps with the daytime sun's radiation will heat things up.

There is a consideration for cell balancing, but if the car was charged to 100%, and met the threshold for balancing, the BMS automation will do that over a time up to 4 hours after the 100% charge was completed. The car must have been left plugged in during this time.

So, back to your example, yes, 70F - 30F = 40 temperature delta / 4 is 10% reduction in battery capacity, and thus range. If your 60mph drive lasts one hour, you might use some climate control at 30F outside.

Your battery capacity is 21 - (21*0.1) = 18.9kWh, as you correctly calculated, leaving a 73.7 mile range (18.9*3.9). Don't subtract your heater use from your battery capacity, because it will be reflected in the lower economy, in addition to the lower economy just to extract the energy from the colder battery. I have no idea what might keep you comfy, but let's say you'll use an average of 2kW of heating. Over an hour, that's 2kWh used.

That should equal about a 10% loss of economy, from 3.9 down to 3.5 miles/kWh to travel that 60mph, multiplied by 18.9 battery capacity, will leave 66.1 miles of range (3.5*18.9).

Then, of course, whatever adjustments for elevation changes, headwinds, density altitude, gross vehicle weight, etc.


I've also read that the Carwings data differs from the car, and if I had a separate meter, or a Blink EVSE, or a TED device (I have none of these things), I would get different figures. My Carwings, at least for now, shows no data whatsoever (I do press OK every time I turn on the car, so I'm not sure what the issue is...)!


Yes, there are two versions of CarWings. Newer cars, and those with the 11-041 firmware update, are 2.5% off on miles traveled. Older cars are seemingly more accurate on mileage, but grossly off base on everything else. Data from a TED or Blink don't reflect charger inefficiency of 73% at 120v, and 84% at 240v.
 
Tony, I have some numbers I am having trouble correlating with your table. Last night I charged to 100%, starting the charge from the Nissan Owner's Portal.

11:17 PM - 6 bars after refresh, then click "start charge"
11:51 PM - 8 bars
12:30 AM - 9 bars
1:01 AM - 11 bars
2:16 AM - Charging complete
I have emails from [email protected] for the 11:17 PM and 2:16 AM events.

Let's look at the 11:17 to 1:01 time period. According to your chart, 6 bars should be 50.9% to 58%, and 11 bars should be 84% to 91.5%. That means I charged somewhere between 26% and 40.6% during that 104 minute period.

I was charging with a 12A 240v EVSEupgrade, which should be using a maximum of 2.88 kW at the wall. I believe it is generally accepted that the charger is somewhere around 84% to 87% efficient with a 240v 16A input, and no more than 75% efficient at 120v 12A. So it seems very unlikely that my setup was more than 84% efficient, and probably less. So it must not have been delivering more than 2.42 kW, or 4.2 kWh during the 104 minute period.

But even assuming the most possible energy delivered and the least percentage charged, I get a usable capacity of 4.2/0.26 = 16.1 kWh. (At the opposite extreme the calculation could easily have come out as 10 kWh or less capacity :!: )

Is it possible that is all my battery could hold? Yes, my car was sitting outside, hadn't been driven for five hours before starting the charge, and this was the middle of the night. But I went out and turned on the car at 3 AM. It showed 5 battery temp bars, and an outside temperature of 50°F. That checks with this morning's paper, which shows the low here last night was 51°F. According to your latest update, that should have cost me 5% in battery capacity. Do I really have an extra-small 17 kWh battery :?:

Ray
 
Ray,

I suspect your battery is fine.

It doesn't look like you are factoring in the tapering down of the charge as the battery approaches 4.1v per cell at 100%.

Secondly, those percentages are simply 281 Gid units divided by 2.81, to arrive at a uniform 100%. You cannot take the Gid percentages to correlate to a uniform unit of energy. I'm reposting some of TickTock's excellent work to show the non-linear portions of the Gids.

Ingineer has identified that our Gids are battery SOC in kWh divided by 80. I don't know the significance of 80, but of course, it doesn't add up with our dash derived data.

For instance, 100 miles driven at 4.8 miles/kWh is 20.83 kWh from the battery in simple math. Assuming the battery was charged to 281 Gid, then 281 * 80 = 22.5kWh.

So, did we have 22.5 or 20.83?

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=172208#p172208" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=172242#p172242" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

chargevstime.jpg
 
TonyWilliams said:
Ray, I suspect your battery is fine.
It doesn't look like you are factoring in the tapering down of the charge as the battery approaches 4.1v per cell at 100%.
I, too, think my battery is fine. I posted on this thread because I am beginning to doubt that the GID percentages as shown in your table are an accurate measure of SOC. See below.

As for factoring in the taper down, I ignored it for two reasons:
  1. The charge range I was looking at went only up to 84%, and I wouldn't expect a very significant taper before that.
  2. Including a factor for tapering would have meant even less energy transferred to the battery in the 104 minute time period, resulting in an even lower answer for total battery capacity.

TonyWilliams said:
Secondly, those percentages are simply 281 Gid units divided by 2.81, to arrive at a uniform 100%. You cannot take the Gid percentages to correlate to a uniform unit of energy. I'm reposting some of TickTock's excellent work to show the non-linear portions of the Gids.
Yes, I had seen TickTock's graph, but it looks quite linear to me in the range I was looking at, from about 160 GID to 240 GID. I will confess, though, that I have been taking your numbers as accurate SOC percentages (where by SOC I mean battery energy within the range that we can actually use). Based on my previous post I am now going to start taking them with a grain of salt, unless someone can find a problem in my logic or calculations.

Ray

P.S. I just realized I failed to report one fact that could be pertinent. I did get the "Charging Complete" email with a timestamp of 2:16 AM, as I said, but I also got a second "Charging Complete" email stamped 3:00 AM. And in fact I "lied" when I said I turned the car on at 3 AM. I fudged the time because I didn't want to admit that I was still up at 3:15, which was about when I really went out and checked the car. So I did nothing at all to cause the second completion message, and I suspect it was related to cell balancing. It had been several weeks since I had charged to 100%.
 
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