Ready to Buy (I think)

[WMTribe90]

I posted the following in a thread over in the regional discussion boards (Mtn West), but thought I would post it here too, since I'm in a bit of a time crunch and looking for feedback from current Leaf owners.

Now that tax season is over, I was able to get someone on the phone at the Colorado Department of Revenue and ask about the Leaf tax credit for 2013. The gentleman confirmed that the credit amounts for 2013 have not been released. At different points in the conversation he indicated they should be out "in May" or "the next couple months". Rather annoying, since I am ready to buy now and the credit (or lack of) is obviously a factor, but at least it won't be Dec or Jan like last year. He said last year was an overhaul of the program, which is why it took so long, and this year is just tweaks, so it should be sooner.

I took a test drive at the Boulder Nissan dealership on Weds. Really liked the sales person. Very knowledgeable and he did not over-sell the car or its capabilities.

I was going to wait till the end of the year to buy to try and get the best possible price on a 2013, but it turns out my cousin's husband works for Inifiniti. For the month of April, the VPP price is $1,000 under invoice. Salesman couldn't/wouldn't say if this offer will extend into May, which has me considering a purchase in the coming days. This would put the price for an S with the charger package at $21,039 (after the Federal tax credit). I plan to trickle charge the Leaf at night in my garage and forgo (at least to start) a home charging station, but decided I wanted the QC port to take advantage of public stations as they hopefully become available in coming years.

My gut is the CO state credit will be less than the $4,600 offered for 2012, but hopefully still north of $2,000. I guess it all depends on which ICE the are using as the comparable and what trim level of the Leaf they compare it to. I just don't see them dropping the credit to 0 for an all-electric. What would be the point of the credit?
Then again, the tax code is often irrational.

Regardless of what the CO state credit amount, I'm fairly comfortable pulling the trigger. I'm betting on long-term ownership (5-8 years). My rnd-trip commute is only 34 miles, so even with 30 percent battery degradation I would have an approximate range of 53 miles. I realize the technology will likely improve rapidly in this time span, but all I really care is that the car gets me from point A to point B safely, reliably, as cheaply as possible, and with as little environmental impact as possible. I have three young boys and a 2012 Honda Odyssey for any long trips and my wife's old Xtrerra (2000) for mountain excursions. The Leaf will be strictly a commuter and around town vehicle. The Leaf will replace my 2001 Saturn SL1, which has 125,000 miles.

By my math, even without a State tax credit and factoring in some heavy depreciation, the five-year cost to own the Leaf is at worst a break-even proposition when comparing the cost of ownership of a similar ICE with a starting MSRP of $20,000. Anything beyond the first five years and the battery warranty would be gravy and improve the price of ownership over the comparable ICE (maintenance and fuel savings increase and relative depreciation gap narrows b/c almost all cars end up at zero in the end). Hopefully, Nissan will offer an affordable battery replacement pack in this time span, but I'm not counting on it.

This site has been tremendously valuable in helping research this car and weigh options. So, I'd be interested in the community's thoughts on any of the above before I make the plunge.

 

[thankyouOB]

you obviously want the car. you obviously think you can afford it.
so it really comes down to what?
do you usually deny yourself things you really want?

or does your bank account rule, along with worries about retirement and college savings, and what ifs?
we dont know what is in your account; so we cant make an economic decision for you, but clearly your heart wants it and you will be teaching your kids to be good stewards of the environment.

 

[WMTribe90]

you obviously want the car. you obviously think you can afford it.
so it really comes down to what?
do you usually deny yourself things you really want?

or does your bank account rule, along with worries about retirement and college savings, and what ifs?
we dont know what is in your account; so we cant make an economic decision for you, but clearly your heart wants it and you will be teaching your kids to be good stewards of the environment.

We can afford to purchase the car. However, as you say, there are always competing needs (college savings, retirement, etc.). The environmental aspects are very important to us. But the same economic metrics I applied to our PV system install five years ago apply here. I'm willing to pay an up-front premium, as long I'm break even or better in the long run. Unfortunately, our finances aren't such that we can make big decisions like this with our hearts (environmental conscious) with little to no regard to cost (otherwise I'd buy a Tesla I guess I'm looking for those with more experience/expertise to point out any holes in my thinking or considerations I'm overlooking.

 

[Stoaty]

Colorado is probably a very good place for battery longevity, based on the estimated rate of battery capacity loss for Denver. For our best guess about the rate of capacity loss (most heavily dependent on climate - hot climate bad) see the Wiki:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Battery_Aging_Model" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[EvansvilleLeaf]

Can't help you with CO side but you're an ideal Leaf owner as far as range, climate and usage goes. Purely financial CBAs are a) tricky to get right and b) limited.

a) first. What price will gas be in 5-8 years? Would we have guessed right in 2005 about today's prices? Electricity costs are far more regulated and while not simple to predict, far less volatile. Most people underestimate ICE maintenance costs too. Everybody has anecdotes of 10 yr old ICEs with nothing but oil changes but they are not the norm. Transmission shops, exhaust manufacturers, Autozone etc make money somehow. There are hundreds of parts subjected to hundreds of degrees for years on an ICE. They will normally fail far more than the fewer parts in less hostile environments on a BEV

b) What price do you put on a near silent car with no vibration? One with 100% torque from the line? Just a cool hi tech factor? No more gas stops? I'm not an eco-warrior by any means. My fun/road trip car gets 18mpg. I was sold on the Leaf, with far higgher costs than now, on these factors first.

 

[WMTribe90]

Colorado is probably a very good place for battery longevity, based on the estimated rate of battery capacity loss for Denver. For our best guess about the rate of capacity loss (most heavily dependent on climate - hot climate bad) see the Wiki:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Battery_Aging_Model" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thank you for sharing that link. Very cool spreadsheet. It appears that under my anticipated use that I wouldn't dip below the 70% capacity line until sometime in year 13 (125,000 total miles). Seems reasonable since I have almost exactly 125,000 miles on my 2001 Saturn.

 

[WMTribe90]

Can't help you with CO side but you're an ideal Leaf owner as far as range, climate and usage goes. Purely financial CBAs are a) tricky to get right and b) limited.

a) first. What price will gas be in 5-8 years? Would we have guessed right in 2005 about today's prices? Electricity costs are far more regulated and while not simple to predict, far less volatile. Most people underestimate ICE maintenance costs too. Everybody has anecdotes of 10 yr old ICEs with nothing but oil changes but they are not the norm. Transmission shops, exhaust manufacturers, Autozone etc make money somehow. There are hundreds of parts subjected to hundreds of degrees for years on an ICE. They will normally fail far more than the fewer parts in less hostile environments on a BEV

b) What price do you put on a near silent car with no vibration? One with 100% torque from the line? Just a cool hi tech factor? No more gas stops? I'm not an eco-warrior by any means. My fun/road trip car gets 18mpg. I was sold on the Leaf, with far higgher costs than now, on these factors first.

a) I assumed an average gasoline price of $4.00 gallon over the next five years or fuel savings of ~$1,000/yr over a fuel efficient (30 mpg) ICE alternative.
I assumed the ICE maintenance would run $1,000 more than the Leaf over the first five years (and only increase from there). Both of my older ICE vehicles are starting to rack up maintenance costs at the 10+ year mark. Given the oldest Leafs are ~3 years old, what is the best guess on long-term leaf maintenance needs. Has there been any recalls? Commonplace repairs?

b) Obviously hard to put a dollar value on those, but I'm very much looking forward to the things you mention. I also want to be an ambassador for this technology and help speed its progress toward widespread acceptance.

 

[Stoaty]

I assumed the ICE maintenance would run $1,000 more than the Leaf over the first five years (and only increase from there). Both of my older ICE vehicles are starting to rack up maintenance costs at the 10+ year mark. Given the oldest Leafs are ~3 years old, what is the best guess on long-term leaf maintenance needs. Has there been any recalls? Commonplace repairs?

There was a software update very early on to fix a problem where turning on the AC could cause the Leaf not to run. This was back in about March, 2011. My Leaf from June, 2011 already had the fix:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Warning_lights_leading_to_LEAF_that_won%27t_run" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There have been a couple of other technical service bulletins, usually for pretty minor stuff. No recalls. I don't think there are any commonplace repairs. A few people have had problems with the heater not working and some have had the charger in the Leaf go bad (more common with certain EVSE charging stations). These problems have all been fixed under warranty. The only required maintenance is flush brake fluid every 2 years and get annual battery check (free for first year or two, likely a nominal fee later). In almost 2 years of ownership I spent $20.00 on maintenance (getting the tires rotated).

 

[Reddy]

You're good to go, even on L1. A couple of points: Given your commute, availability of other cars, and the slow roll out of DCQCs in your area (read NONE), I wouldn't bother with the QC port. You could lease without the QC, then upgrade in 2-3 years with QC should the need arise. Given the large number of L2 stations on http://www.plugshare.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, I would seriously consider getting the 6.0-6.6 kW charger. This will allow you to get more charge out in the wild for extended travel (say 100-150 mi). You'd better get used to visiting Walgreens. Also, consider what direction you might travel the most from home. If you routinely travel south to Denver, then consider buying from a dealership in that direction. That way, you can charge enroute and not get the cold shoulder because you didn't buy from a certain dealership. Be prepared to use this car more than you expect (because it's so darn cheap to drive and nice to be in compared to your ICE). Finally, for normal commuting, you don't "need" the L2 charging station or evseupgrade.com. As already said, L1 will likely require about 8 hr charge to replace your commuting miles so there is plenty of time every night. I would set your timer to start at ~11pm and end at 8 am, charge to 80%, and you're good to go. Remember, if you get "behind" on charging, say arrive home late one night after driving to extra activities after work, the L1 takes quite a bit of time to "catch up". You can always add some charge at a nearby commercial L2. Eventually, you may want to upgrade to L2, but you've got lots of time to decide. The tougher days won't come until Winter, when heat (even with the more efficient 2013 Leaf) will consume more energy. Even then, 35 mi RT will be easy, even in the snow/rain. Just watch out for that -25 F week and don't plan any extra driving then.

 

[vrwl]

Like Stoaty, I've had just the 1 year battery check and I'll be rotating tires in about 1000 miles. That's it as far as maintenance goes so far. I've driven 6000 miles in the 10 months I've owned the car and I don't even notice any significant difference in our electricity bill. It costs me about 2 cents for every mile I drive (1248kWh used*0.10 per kWh/6000 miles). Most people average somewhere in the 2-3 cents/mile range for electricity cost so you can use that to figure your monthly or yearly "fuel" expense.

I've been charging using the L1 EVSE that comes with the car for the last 10 months and it's just fine. Takes a little bit of advance planning, but nothing I can't handle. I did get the upgrade done to my EVSE, so once I finally pay for an electrician to increase the size of our electrical panel or add another panel, then I'll be ready to go with the L2 charging.

Found out today that I have a bit over 89% capacity left in my battery, so for a Texas car, it's not too bad so far, but time will tell. You'll have a lot better luck with your battery in Colorado with the cooler temps. No matter what though, I still love my car!

 

[WMTribe90]

You're good to go, even on L1. A couple of points: Given your commute, availability of other cars, and the slow roll out of DCQCs in your area (read NONE), I wouldn't bother with the QC port. You could lease without the QC, then upgrade in 2-3 years with QC should the need arise. Given the large number of L2 stations on http://www.plugshare.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, I would seriously consider getting the 6.0-6.6 kW charger. This will allow you to get more charge out in the wild for extended travel (say 100-150 mi). You'd better get used to visiting Walgreens. Also, consider what direction you might travel the most from home. If you routinely travel south to Denver, then consider buying from a dealership in that direction. That way, you can charge enroute and not get the cold shoulder because you didn't buy from a certain dealership. Be prepared to use this car more than you expect (because it's so darn cheap to drive and nice to be in compared to your ICE). Finally, for normal commuting, you don't "need" the L2 charging station or evseupgrade.com. As already said, L1 will likely require about 8 hr charge to replace your commuting miles so there is plenty of time every night. I would set your timer to start at ~11pm and end at 8 am, charge to 80%, and you're good to go. Remember, if you get "behind" on charging, say arrive home late one night after driving to extra activities after work, the L1 takes quite a bit of time to "catch up". You can always add some charge at a nearby commercial L2. Eventually, you may want to upgrade to L2, but you've got lots of time to decide. The tougher days won't come until Winter, when heat (even with the more efficient 2013 Leaf) will consume more energy. Even then, 35 mi RT will be easy, even in the snow/rain. Just watch out for that -25 F week and don't plan any extra driving then.

Thanks for the response. There is actually a Walgreens with a charging station about 1 mile from my house. My commute is toward Denver, but we generally head to Boulder for entertainment. Unless there is a dealership near my work, I'll probably stick with the Boulder dealership because they sell the most and are the most knowledgeable.

Good point on the QC stations (though hopefully that will change soon). However, and correct me if I'm wrong, if I purchase an S, I don't have the option of getting the 6.6 kw/h without also getting the QC. The S comes standard with the 3.3 kw/h and the "charge package" upgrade option comes with 6.6 kw/h, QC, and back-up camera for $1,300. I think there's enough value there for me, even though I plan to primarily charge using L1. I'd just hate to not have the QC if the infrastructure gets added along the major highways here in Colorado or a few years down the road.

How much range loss are you experiencing on those colder Colorado days in the teens or single digits?

 

[thankyouOB]

i have had the car for 24k miles -- and two years in a few days. it has lost a small amount of range, the vast majority of it when i changed to michelin tires after a flat and a bubble in a second original equipment tire.
for me, no other maintenance at all. i will change the air filter at the next service, which comes up in a month.
you will need to deal with some loss of range, but that doesnt seem to be a factor in your commute. commutes though can change.
it is all you want it to be.
the car is a dream.

i have solar, as you can see from my profile, and sig.
i did not really make the solar and EV decisions with my mind primarily on timely return on investment, although it has worked fine for me.
i like saving $700 a year on electricity for a 10k investment. that is a 7% tax-free return.

i cant talk cold weather issues with you, obviously.


the only other pertinent issue seems to be whether you can stretch more usage out of your existing car or it is time to replace. i am not a spender when it comes to vehicles, in terms of getting one often. i always keep cars 10 years, unless they get wrecked.
that has worked fine for me. but i do like to buy a nice car, since i am keeping it for awhile.
the LEAF is a nice car with nice equipment. i love the bluetooth radio, handsfree, which lets me stream MBL from my phone to the car. i love the back up camera. you will never tire of fueling up in your driveway and for so little money.

 

[WMTribe90]

Like Stoaty, I've had just the 1 year battery check and I'll be rotating tires in about 1000 miles. That's it as far as maintenance goes so far. I've driven 6000 miles in the 10 months I've owned the car and I don't even notice any significant difference in our electricity bill. It costs me about 2 cents for every mile I drive (1248kWh used*0.10 per kWh/6000 miles). Most people average somewhere in the 2-3 cents/mile range for electricity cost so you can use that to figure your monthly or yearly "fuel" expense.

I've been charging using the L1 EVSE that comes with the car for the last 10 months and it's just fine. Takes a little bit of advance planning, but nothing I can't handle. I did get the upgrade done to my EVSE, so once I finally pay for an electrician to increase the size of our electrical panel or add another panel, then I'll be ready to go with the L2 charging.

Found out today that I have a bit over 89% capacity left in my battery, so for a Texas car, it's not too bad so far, but time will tell. You'll have a lot better luck with your battery in Colorado with the cooler temps. No matter what though, I still love my car!

Good to hear the L1 charging is working for you and others on here.

I used a figure of 3.2 cents per mile to calculate my EV "fuel" cost. Anybody in Colorado with xcel power have a precise number? Does xcel offer off-peak rates? If so, what time of day do they apply?

 

[WMTribe90]

i have had the car for 24k miles -- and two years in a few days. it has lost a small amount of range, the vast majority of it when i changed to michelin tires after a flat and a bubble in a second original equipment tire.
for me, no other maintenance at all. i will change the air filter at the next service, which comes up in a month.
you will need to deal with some loss of range, but that doesnt seem to be a factor in your commute. commutes though can change.
it is all you want it to be.
the car is a dream.

i have solar, as you can see from my profile, and sig.
i did not really make the solar and EV decisions with my mind primarily on timely return on investment, although it has worked fine for me.
i like saving $700 a year on electricity for a 10k investment. that is a 7% tax-free return.

i cant talk cold weather issues with you, obviously.


the only other pertinent issue seems to be whether you can stretch more usage out of your existing car or it is time to replace. i am not a spender when it comes to vehicles, in terms of getting one often. i always keep cars 10 years, unless they get wrecked.
that has worked fine for me. but i do like to buy a nice car, since i am keeping it for awhile.
the LEAF is a nice car with nice equipment. i love the bluetooth radio, handsfree, which lets me stream MBL from my phone to the car. i love the back up camera. you will never tire of fueling up in your driveway and for so little money.

I think we're pretty like-minded. I definitely look at cars (and the PV) as long-term deals. My PV is on track to pay-off in ten years, so I'm half way there. I don't think about the payoff much anymore and, like you, just enjoy the low power bills.

I am a little torn to unload the Saturn, when it seemingly has life left in it. I get over 30 mpg combined (manual tran) and could probably squeeze another year or two out of it. Flip side is the car is 12 years old, serves its primary purpose, but is joyless to drive. Wife is not a fan either when she has to drive it.

 

[Reddy]

Good point on the QC stations (though hopefully that will change soon). However, and correct me if I'm wrong, if I purchase an S, I don't have the option of getting the 6.6 kw/h without also getting the QC. The S comes standard with the 3.3 kw/h and the "charge package" upgrade option comes with 6.6 kw/h, QC, and back-up camera for $1,300. I think there's enough value there for me, even though I plan to primarily charge using L1. I'd just hate to not have the QC if the infrastructure gets added along the major highways here in Colorado or a few years down the road.

How much range loss are you experiencing on those colder Colorado days in the teens or single digits?

I only get down to about 15-20 F, and with my 8 mi RT commute, it's never a concern. Even at that temp, the L1 does a good job of pre-heating inside my garage. I probably see a total range of around 65-70 mi in town. I don't recommend it for daily commuting, but I did a 65 mi highway trip here: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11505&p=266517&hilit=+emergency#p266517
Here are some more cold threads: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=11506#p265550
Yes, you're right on the S with QC charge package. I hadn't really kept track since I won't be buying again. Here's the thread on all the specs: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11192&hilit=2013+specification#p257141

 

[WMTribe90]

Okay, I'm (OP) heading to the dealership tonight. If I can trouble the group with a few final questions, it would be a great help.

1) I'm now deciding between the S with charger package or SV models. I believe the price difference between theses two options is roughly $1,700 and this would get me Carwings, b-mode Regen braking and the hybrid heater (among other things that are of less value to me). As mentioned before I live in Colorado (front range) and have a 34-mile rnd trip commute that is one third HW and two-thirds mixed (speeds 25-45 mph with frequent start/stop). How much value would I get out of the hybrid heater and b-mode? How much of a range booster are these? Its my understanding that I can still program the car to preheat while plugged in without Carwings? Is this easy/convenient to do?

2) I've read on these boards that some 2013 Leaf owners have had trouble charging at L2 stations (car and charger are not synching up)? Has Nissan confirmed what the issue and fix are? Is this problem serious enough that I should wait before purchasing? Any way I can have the dealer check my potential purchase for this problem before leaving the lot?

3) If I go with the S with charge package is it worth trying to negotiate the $1,300 charger package down?

Thanks in advance for any/all responses and advice.

 

[thankyouOB]

$1700 bucks over the life of the car -- say five years -- is about $1 a day.
I go for that SV and get the upgrades.
i dunno which level gets you the backup or all-round camera, but that was the least important thing when i bought the car, and i wouldnt be without it today.

 

[Boomer23]

$1700 bucks over the life of the car -- say five years -- is about $1 a day.
I go for that SV and get the upgrades.
i dunno which level gets you the backup or all-round camera, but that was the least important thing when i bought the car, and i wouldnt be without it today.

+1 on the rear view camera. Worst decision Nissan made on equipping the 2013s was deleting the rear view camera as standard on the SL and it should be a standalone option on the S and SV.

 

[Stoaty]

If you live in Colorado, you definitely want the hybrid heater.

 

[dgpcolorado]

If you live in Colorado, you definitely want the hybrid heater.

I agree. Even with a 34 mile commute being able to use the heater with reduced impact on range would be helpful on other trips that are longer. That said, I find that a combination of preheating plus steering wheel and seat heaters is all I need most of the time because I dress for cold weather.

Okay, I'm (OP) heading to the dealership tonight. If I can trouble the group with a few final questions, it would be a great help.

1) I'm now deciding between the S with charger package or SV models. I believe the price difference between theses two options is roughly $1,700 and this would get me Carwings, b-mode Regen braking and the hybrid heater (among other things that are of less value to me). As mentioned before I live in Colorado (front range) and have a 34-mile rnd trip commute that is one third HW and two-thirds mixed (speeds 25-45 mph with frequent start/stop). How much value would I get out of the hybrid heater and b-mode? How much of a range booster are these? Its my understanding that I can still program the car to preheat while plugged in without Carwings? Is this easy/convenient to do?

The B mode is of greatest use for those dealing with steep hills. It is also convenient for single pedal driving. The S model does have a preheat timer that is programmed much like the charging timer. Not as simple as with the SV and SL but you would get used to it I would guess.

One of the things I would miss the most on the S model is the lack of Cruise Control. But I suppose that is a personal preference. And getting the charge package will help you make longer trips by making charging on the way much more practical. Many of us have found that we end up driving our EVs much more than we expected because it is so much more fun than an ICE car and much less expensive for fuel (or free for solar panel owners).

2) I've read on these boards that some 2013 Leaf owners have had trouble charging at L2 stations (car and charger are not synching up)? Has Nissan confirmed what the issue and fix are? Is this problem serious enough that I should wait before purchasing? Any way I can have the dealer check my potential purchase for this problem before leaving the lot?

I've not heard of such a thing. There were some issues with the GE Wattstation and older LEAFs; whether that has been fixed on the 2013 models I couldn't say.

3) If I go with the S with charge package is it worth trying to negotiate the $1,300 charger package down?

Thanks in advance for any/all responses and advice.

All things are negotiable but in the past Colorado dealers haven't been as willing to deal as those in some other states with much higher LEAF sales. It would be best to shop at several dealers if you can. I can't help with Front Range dealer suggestions, given my location.