Rip-Off charging stations

[ElectricVehicle]

I see the logic in the early going since the spaces are at a premium. It's kinda hard on LEAF owners with our wimpy 3.3kW chargers, though. If I only get 10-12 miles of range for $4, I'm probably going to pass on it, where someone who gets double or quaduple that range for the same money might go for it.

So it's tough to justify for a 3.3 kW LEAF? Try justifying it for a Plug In Prius that only has a 13 mile electric only range! That's the electric range equivalent of 1/4 gallon of gas.

For us to substantially reduce gas usage, funding for public charging needs to come from more than just the drivers. We're bearing the entire costs for what will ultimately be huge benefit to everyone in the US and the world. And the cost of the parking space itself makes the cost of EV charging pale in comparison...

 

[SanDust]

If anyone saw my rant about EVGO, I will point it out again. I believe that business model is doomed to failure. Nobody ever pays for a subscription to a service unless that subscription adds value.

I think eVgo provides good value. You sign a contract for three years at $90/month. That's $3240, which sounds like a lot. But you get a Level II charger and they install it for you. Then you can use it to charge your car without cost on an all-you-can eat plan. Plus you can use their public chargers.

Once you subtract out the cost of the charger and installation you're only paying about $45/month for all charging, including at public Level II and DC chargers. That strikes me as a good deal, especially since you don't have to pay up front for the charger.

As I mentioned in another thread, what can make a program like this unappealing is too much government support. For example, if the government gives you a free Level II charger and your friendly local utility gives you a special rate plan, then a program like eVgo isn't looking so appealing.

 

[adric22]

Once you subtract out the cost of the charger and installation you're only paying about $45/month for all charging, including at public Level II and DC chargers. That strikes me as a good deal, especially since you don't have to pay up front for the charger.

I spend about $10 a month on charging currently and bought my own L2 charger for $900. So I'm at $1,260 for a 3 year period. And if I need access to a public charging station once in a blue moon and have to pay $5 to use it, I'm still way better off.

 

[ElectricVehicle]

If anyone saw my rant about EVGO, I will point it out again. I believe that business model is doomed to failure. Nobody ever pays for a subscription to a service unless that subscription adds value.

I think eVgo provides good value. You sign a contract for three years at $90/month. That's $3240, which sounds like a lot. But you get a Level II charger and they install it for you. Then you can use it to charge your car without cost on an all-you-can eat plan. Plus you can use their public chargers.

Once you subtract out the cost of the charger and installation you're only paying about $45/month for all charging, including at public Level II and DC chargers. That strikes me as a good deal, especially since you don't have to pay up front for the charger.

As I mentioned in another thread, what can make a program like this unappealing is too much government support. For example, if the government gives you a free Level II charger and your friendly local utility gives you a special rate plan, then a program like eVgo isn't looking so appealing.

The $2500 for an installed level 2 charging station at home is ludicrous. We're already seeing that drop off and we're seeing EVSE at Home Depot and other outlets for $700, soon it will be less. With your own electrician and reasonable permit fees, you can get a level 2 EVSE installed at home for $1,000 on a simple install. Those prices will continue to fall.

For convenience, I've rounded the $89/mo to $90. If that $1/mo makes a difference to you, please adjust the following analysis accordingly!

And what about the next 3 years? $3240 for the next 3 years, $90/month!

$0.30/kWh (expensive) = 300 kWh/mo = (3miles/kWh) 900 miles/month = 10,800 miles/yr
$0.20/kWh (moderate) = 450 kWh/mo = (3miles/kWh) 1350 miles/month = 16,200 miles/yr
$0.10/kWh (cheap) = 900 kWh/mo = (3miles/kWh) 1350 miles/month = 32,400 miles/yr

I'm a low mileage household, so I'll put maybe 6,000 miles/yr on the LEAF and my energy economy is better than 4 miles/kWh so I need 1,500 kWh/yr or 125 kWh/mo. $90/mo for 125 kWh = $0.72/kWh !

If you're putting 15,000 miles per year or more on your LEAF and don't drive conservatively (3 vs. 4 miles/kWh), eVgo may work for you. It's not worth it to me on the few occasions I might use a QC, factoring in the battery degradation of QC. I'll just fire up the 2002 Prius that's already paid for and gets 40+ MPG. Yes I'd like Plug In Prius to complement the LEAF, and get better mileage and a few more electric miles, but having the LEAF + the 2002 Prius that's already paid for, it's like having a Prius with 100 mile Electric only range and 40+ MPG on gas. If you have choices, the value of eVgo is severely diminished for the price they charge. Besides, I have Solar PV at home anyway, so the home energy component of eVgo is irrelevant - worse - a waste of money for those who take the additional step of putting Solar Electric in.

Besides, the Time Of Use rates are not a government hand out, they arer the economic realities of the utility companies. Things are moving towards TOU instead of away from it, so expect to see more TOU rates in residential settings in the future. It only makes sense to encaourage consumers to save them selves and the utilities money by running heavy appliances, clothes dryers, electric car charging etc. outside of the 2 - 9 pm peak power demand window.

The crazy tiered rates based on usages that we have in CA, PG&E etc. are under review now and will be changing so that the top tiers are less expensive. The tiers will also incorporate time of use components, so jhust based on market forces, home EV charging is going to get cheaper at night than it is today in those areas that have the excessive tiered rates.

Crazy, eVgo even has the Plug In Prius on their website, but the plan for that is still $90/mo!
Toyota Prius PHV (PHEV)
Charge time: 90 min (Level 2)
Maximum range: 13 Mi (600+ hybrid)
MSRP: $27,000

 

[surfingslovak]

With your own electrician and reasonable permit fees, you can get a level 2 EVSE installed at home for $1,000 on a simple install.

Great analysis, as always. BTW Ghosn stated in his SIEPR talk he gave at Stanford three months ago that he expected this "simple system" to cost $1,000 according to the information that bubbled up to him from Nissan USA:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4alG3T1kuU&t=97s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[SanDust]

The $2500 for an installed level 2 charging station at home is ludicrous. We're already seeing that drop off and we're seeing EVSE at Home Depot and other outlets for $700, soon it will be less. With your own electrician and reasonable permit fees, you can get a level 2 EVSE installed at home for $1,000 on a simple install. Those prices will continue to fall.
...
And what about the next 3 years? $3240 for the next 3 years, $90/month!
...
Besides, the Time Of Use rates are not a government hand out, they arer the economic realities of the utility companies.

Not sure where you got your $2500 figure from. I used $1600, which is more reasonable than your $1000. While you can get a charger with a one year warranty for $750, $1000 seems to be the going rate for a charger with a three year warranty, and the eVgo charger is on a three year contract. Plus where I am the permit costs $250. Add in the breakers you'd need and so forth, plus sales tax, and the $1600 seems, if anything, pretty conservative, even ignoring charges for drawings and the inspection and so forth.

As for the using the $90/month rate without the installed charger, obviously we don't know but my guess is that the next three year contract would be at a reduced rate and/or you'd get a new charger.

As for the special rates, I didn't say that they were a handout, just that they were special. That's just a fact, and you wouldn't disagree that they're favorable, would you?

I'm not saying that you would want this plan. I'm just pointing out that it's not a bad plan and, in fact, depending on your situation, could be a good one, but that government programs and actions by the utilities make it less appealing. For example, if a Leaf owner where I am was on a tiered rate plan and was already in the highest tier, and was using 400 kWh a month to charge, it would cost them $120/month just to charge at home, let alone at public chargers.

 

[ElectricVehicle]

With your own electrician and reasonable permit fees, you can get a level 2 EVSE installed at home for $1,000 on a simple install.

Great analysis, as always. BTW Ghosn stated in his SIEPR talk he gave at Stanford three months ago that he expected this "simple system" to cost $1,000 according to the information that bubbled up to him from Nissan USA:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4alG3T1kuU&t=97s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks! I'm just racking my brain trying to figure out a sustainable business model that works for everyone - EV driver, charging service provider, charging site owner, and maybe a little help from all the non-EV drivers that also reap benefits from those that do drive EVs (Healthier air, less damage to oceans, less oil dependence, etc.)

Maybe we'll end up with something like the early days of cell phones where the costs were ridiculous in the first years, with mobile phones the size of a brick, not including battery, to today where they are cell phones are tiny and the cell phone plans aren't cheap, but they are affordable to the general public.

Whatever plan it is, with the variation in each of our driving styles, from 13 mile electric range Plug In Prius to 300 mile range Tesla Model S and different driving distances from 5,000 miles per year to 20,000+ there will have to be some component based on how much you use. (Plug In Prius Electric miles might be 3,000/year or lower.)

 

[SanDust]

BTW Ghosn stated in his SIEPR talk he gave at Stanford three months ago that he expected this "simple system" to cost $1,000 according to the information that bubbled up to him from Nissan USA:

Probably from the same people who told him the Leaf had a 100 mile range. :lol:

As always with Nissan there are caveats. If you were willing to forgo a three warranty, and not pull a permit and run the insurance risk, and do it yourself, and didn't have too many complications, you might be able to do it for $1000. Otherwise no. This seems obvious because if you take the SPX charger, add shipping, add tax, and then add the fee for pulling the permit, you're already over $1000, and it's only going up from there.

 

[surfingslovak]

BTW Ghosn stated in his SIEPR talk he gave at Stanford three months ago that he expected this "simple system" to cost $1,000 according to the information that bubbled up to him from Nissan USA:

Probably from the same people who told him the Leaf had a 100 mile range. :lol:

No kidding! ;-)

 

[ElectricVehicle]

Not sure where you got your $2500 figure from. I used $1600, which is more reasonable than your $1000. While you can get a charger with a one year warranty for $750, $1000 seems to be the going rate for a charger with a three year warranty, and the eVgo charger is on a three year contract. Plus where I am the permit costs $250. Add in the breakers you'd need and so forth, plus sales tax, and the $1600 seems, if anything, pretty conservative, even ignoring charges for drawings and the inspection and so forth.

As for the using the $90/month rate without the installed charger, obviously we don't know but my guess is that the next three year contract would be at a reduced rate and/or you'd get a new charger.

As for the special rates, I didn't say that they were a handout, just that they were special. That's just a fact, and you wouldn't disagree that they're favorable, would you?

I'm not saying that you would want this plan. I'm just pointing out that it's not a bad plan and, in fact, depending on your situation, could be a good one, but that government programs and actions by the utilities make it less appealing. For example, if a Leaf owner where I am was on a tiered rate plan and was already in the highest tier, and was using 400 kWh a month to charge, it would cost them $120/month just to charge at home, let alone at public chargers.

$0.04/kWh would be a special rate, but few people get that because of the tier charges or the several thousand dollar separate meter install. If anything, I would say current electric rates are unfavorable to EVs, at least with many California utilities that have the severe tier usage penalties, appplying even off peak. The majority of my energy costs is not the base price per kWh, it's the tier penalty that's being changed because it is so grossly UNFAVORABLE towards EVs. I do agree there are some "special" rates for EVs, but they are UNFAVORABLE, given that they are subject to huge tier penalties off peak.

Best Buy will sell the charger with installation for $1495. If you are or know a handy person, with some electrical skills, you can get a level 2 EV charger installed for around $1000 with prices dropping, or even use 120V charging. I'm underimpressed by the value of their charger. Even the AV units are popping up on eBay for $600. Warranty? 3 years? If you need a 3 year warranty for a small microcontroller, a connector, some wire and a contactor - run away from that product. These things should last years if properly made. Are you getting a warranty on your microwave? Vacuum cleaner, etc? Sure some people will, but others will save some money. Some areas have crazy permit prices - $250, $300, etc. But others have permits that are $50. There's work goinig on to reduce the permit costs also, particularly in cities that are trying to promote "Green".

The tiered rates are changing in the next year or two most likely, before the end of the eVgo 3 year contract. If they want me to sign up, they need to tell me what I'm in for for the next 3 years. Otherwise I have to assume it's the same $89/mo for a 3 year commitment. No thank you. That's a dark tunnel at the end of three years. I'll support a competitor with a better long term plan or forgo the service altogether.

400 kWh/mo is 1200 to 1600 miles/mo or 14,400 to 16,000 miles/year. I know some people put that sort of mileage on their EVs. I know some people don't. The eVgo rates ONLY make sense with the crazy tiered power rates that are getting changed in the next few years. The eVgo rates are totally insane in some areas where the cost of power is in the less than $0.10/kWh $0.15/kWh. The national average is around 11.6¢ per kWh for Residential. Off peak electricity is much cheaper than the average. So if you drive over 15,000 miles/year and get you electricity from the MOST expensive utilities in the MOST expensive states, eVgo MIGHT make sense for you. Mind you, even eVgo only changes the price of their plan by $10/month from $79 to $89 if it includes your home charging electricity. So the value of the home component of the electricity is not a compelling argument for eVgo for the majority of EV drivers across the US.

The average retail price of electricity in the United States in 2010 was 9.88 cents per kilowatt-hour (kWh). The average prices by type of utility customer were:
Residential: 11.6¢ per kWh
Transportation: 11.0¢ per kWh
Commercial: 10.3¢ per kWh
Industrial: 6.8¢ per kWh

Prices vary over time and by locality due to the availability of power plants and fuels, local fuel costs, and pricing regulation and structures.

The three States with the highest average price of electricity in 2010 were:
Hawaii (25.12¢ per kWh)
Connecticut (17.39¢ per kWh)
New York (16.31¢ per kWh)

Those with the lowest average prices in 2010 were:
Wyoming (6.20¢ per kWh)
Idaho (6.54¢ per kWh)
Kentucky (6.75¢ per kWh)

http://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/index.cfm?page=electricity_factors_affecting_prices" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[shay]

If anyone saw my rant about EVGO, I will point it out again. I believe that business model is doomed to failure. Nobody ever pays for a subscription to a service unless that subscription adds value.

I think eVgo provides good value. You sign a contract for three years at $90/month. That's $3240, which sounds like a lot. But you get a Level II charger and they install it for you. Then you can use it to charge your car without cost on an all-you-can eat plan. Plus you can use their public chargers.

Once you subtract out the cost of the charger and installation you're only paying about $45/month for all charging, including at public Level II and DC chargers. That strikes me as a good deal, especially since you don't have to pay up front for the charger.

As I mentioned in another thread, what can make a program like this unappealing is too much government support. For example, if the government gives you a free Level II charger and your friendly local utility gives you a special rate plan, then a program like eVgo isn't looking so appealing.

It looks like you are assuming that the EVSE is yous at the of the term. I am under the impression that it is not. You are only leasing the EVSE from evgo.

 

[ericsf]

BTW, I wrote a message to ECOtality to tell them that EVSE programs where their name was involved shouldn't be complete rip-offs. This was following the announcement that some Casino had installed EVSE to be "green" and was charging $4 per hour (a complete rip-off).

Surprisingly I got a very receptive answer from Blink:

Thank you very much for the time it took you to send us this feedback. Unfortunately, there is not much we can do about a company who purchases our product and then charges for public use of them. However, I did take your customer feedback and anonymously forwarded it to the point of contact we have on file for the Casino to ensure that at the very least your voice was heard.

 

[91040]

Has anyone run the numbers to determine what a fair price would be for charging?

Plug in America has this information page and calculator- http://www.pluginrecharge.com/p/calculator-charging-for-charges.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. You can change the numbers to fit your situation. With their default numbers- at $3/hour, it would take almost 6 years to break even, at $4 about almost 3.5 years.

 

[DarkStar]

Has anyone run the numbers to determine what a fair price would be for charging?

Plug in America has this information page and calculator- http://www.pluginrecharge.com/p/calculator-charging-for-charges.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. You can change the numbers to fit your situation. With their default numbers- at $3/hour, it would take almost 6 years to break even, at $4 about almost 3.5 years.

"Payback does not account for income from the marketing effect nor the small increase in property insurance expense."

Hopefully the business is installing charging stations to generate incremental revenue from additional customers (stop to charge, buy a hotdog).

 

[walterbays]

BTW, I wrote a message to ECOtality to tell them that EVSE programs where their name was involved shouldn't be complete rip-offs. This was following the announcement that some Casino had installed EVSE to be "green" and was charging $4 per hour (a complete rip-off).

Surprisingly I got a very receptive answer from Blink:

It's nice that Blink is listening.

The Pala Casino is charging $4 per hour. I'll probably go visit them once just to show I appreciate them installing charging stations. I'm no gambler though; I wouldn't even gamble on making the return trip without a boost charge.

But look at the grey dot on the blink map. That's Harrah's Rincon Casino. What if they price it at $3 per hour, and all the gambler Leaf drivers start going there to play? And then Pala drops their price to $2? And then Sycuan adds charging stations for $1. And then Barona adds them free if you buy $5 of chips. Etc.

Same thing with Walgreen's. If they charge $4 for L3 that's a good deal. But if they charge $4 for L2 that's a rip-off, and if CVS starts offering it for free with $10 purchase they'll get the business.

The first hurdle is getting charging stations installed at all. Once that's done and there starts to be a little bit of competition, prices should fall. And the Volt and Prius PHV drivers will help keep them all honest for us. Any place that charges more per mile than the gas station next door isn't going to get any PHEV business.

 

[Aeolus]

As I mentioned in another thread, what can make a program like this unappealing is too much government support. For example, if the government gives you a free Level II charger and your friendly local utility gives you a special rate plan, then a program like eVgo isn't looking so appealing.

I don't know of anyone who is getting a special rate plan from a friendly utility. Instead, we are paying time of use rates, which give incentives to use power off peak, and substantial penalties for using on-peak power.

 

[redLEAF]

BTW, I wrote a message to ECOtality to tell them that EVSE programs where their name was involved shouldn't be complete rip-offs. This was following the announcement that some Casino had installed EVSE to be "green" and was charging $4 per hour (a complete rip-off).

Surprisingly I got a very receptive answer from Blink:

It's nice that Blink is listening.

The Pala Casino is charging $4 per hour. I'll probably go visit them once just to show I appreciate them installing charging stations. I'm no gambler though; I wouldn't even gamble on making the return trip without a boost charge.

But look at the grey dot on the blink map. That's Harrah's Rincon Casino. What if they price it at $3 per hour, and all the gambler Leaf drivers start going there to play? And then Pala drops their price to $2? And then Sycuan adds charging stations for $1. And then Barona adds them free if you buy $5 of chips. Etc.

Same thing with Walgreen's. If they charge $4 for L3 that's a good deal. But if they charge $4 for L2 that's a rip-off, and if CVS starts offering it for free with $10 purchase they'll get the business.

The first hurdle is getting charging stations installed at all. Once that's done and there starts to be a little bit of competition, prices should fall. And the Volt and Prius PHV drivers will help keep them all honest for us. Any place that charges more per mile than the gas station next door isn't going to get any PHEV business.

As a Walgreen's fairly close to us just installed their charging stations (but we don't have our LEAF yet) haven't bothered to stop in yet to see what the fee would be but they are definitely L2 chargers (quite similar to the AV branded ones sponsored through Nissan); the problem with these pharmacy/convenience locations is that you wouldn't typically have a long enough visit at them unless they were in a shopping plaza where you plan to spend enough time -- especially with a L2 charger. If for instance you're picking up a prescription fill order, what is that like 15 minutes? Now if they had an L3 charger that would be a bit of a different story. If a Super Target (with a full grocery store inventory) were to put these in, you could get your prescription, groceries, electronics, photos, etc. and the 'visit' would be long enough -- bonus points if CVS will offer free charging with a minimum $xx purchase, that would be a great model for others to follow. In some locations they don't already have curb parking right up front (all parking is separated by a lane that you need to cross to get into the store) so they would be more difficult to retrofit as you'll need to have underground wiring, etc. but as I'm seeing more 'island' like locations for banks, etc. it's still possible -- again it has to be a draw to get more customers in as well as can't be cost prohibitive for the merchant or too expensive for customers to use.

 

[Pipcecil]

If anyone saw my rant about EVGO, I will point it out again. I believe that business model is doomed to failure. Nobody ever pays for a subscription to a service unless that subscription adds value.

I think eVgo provides good value. You sign a contract for three years at $90/month. That's $3240, which sounds like a lot. But you get a Level II charger and they install it for you. Then you can use it to charge your car without cost on an all-you-can eat plan. Plus you can use their public chargers.

Once you subtract out the cost of the charger and installation you're only paying about $45/month for all charging, including at public Level II and DC chargers. That strikes me as a good deal, especially since you don't have to pay up front for the charger.

As I mentioned in another thread, what can make a program like this unappealing is too much government support. For example, if the government gives you a free Level II charger and your friendly local utility gives you a special rate plan, then a program like eVgo isn't looking so appealing.

It looks like you are assuming that the EVSE is yous at the of the term. I am under the impression that it is not. You are only leasing the EVSE from evgo.

There is alot of people that dislike eVgo's setup but I don't think its as flawed as people make it out to be, and for many people it actually makes some sense.

1. Firstly, there is no upfront cost on the EVSE period. Some people don't have oggles of disposable income and an extra 2.5k on top of the car can make a big difference. Look how many people did the standard AV installation through Nissan (hint its probably alot more than we think). If your looking for mass market, simple solutions work best (especially all in one). People that research and cost comparison are in the extreme minority. As was pointed out you never own the EVSE its always rented (like a cable box), but after 3 years you have the option to buy out (how much that is, who knows)...I wish that last part was different, but at least there is a buyout option.

2. The EVSE is different, its a completely grid connected unit (just like Blink's). It is NOT a dummy unit. Blink's system cost $1,500 plus installation. Three years @ $50 a month = $1800, which includes installation. Comparison to that three year timeline, your about even. Since eVgo uses the AV unit, its smaller and doesn't have the bugs some units have (hint hint, jut go look at the blink topics).

3. Its the ONLY company doing Level 3 here. Walgreens is NOT doing level 3 in Texas, ECOtality is NOT doing level 3 in texas, soooo, if you want/need level 3 its either eVgo or else. Granted a jump from 50 to 80 to just have access to their public chargers I think is alot. In addition there is no method to drop their home charger and just do public

4. 10 more dollars gets you electricity. At that point it really depends on how much your drive and spend. I spend 35 bucks a month on electricity for the leaf (I drive alot), so it would be a savings of $25 per month if eVgo pays the electricity.

I will give the fact its an odd model, your combining electricity cost, plus public chargers, plus home charger all into one. Some of those benefits are better than others. Unfortunately, eVgo will have no competition in the near future. To compete you need someone else to install Level 3 chargers, and that won't happen anytime soon unless something changes. In the end it boils down to: how often would you need to level 3 charge? how much do you pay per month in electricity for the leaf, can you afford the home charger straight off or do you want a smart grid charger or do you prefer AV's unit for looks/size/reliablity?

It doesn't work for everyone, but I can easily see it working for many people. I think the idea of a monthly payment really puts people off and many won't ever need a Level 3 except for the rare times. But, there are probably lots that could benefit from that extended range of a Level 3. To me it makes sense in large sprawed cities like DFW and Houston but makes little sense when you can drive across town in 30 minutes using 20 miles of range. You can drive one direction in Houston for an hour and still easily be in the city. That doesn't count all the suburbs either.

 

[shay]

1. Firstly, there is no upfront cost on the EVSE period. Some people don't have oggles of disposable income and an extra 2.5k on top of the car can make a big difference. Look how many people did the standard AV installation through Nissan (hint its probably alot more than we think). If your looking for mass market, simple solutions work best (especially all in one). People that research and cost comparison are in the extreme minority. As was pointed out you never own the EVSE its always rented (like a cable box), but after 3 years you have the option to buy out (how much that is, who knows)...I wish that last part was different, but at least there is a buyout option.

2. The EVSE is different, its a completely grid connected unit (just like Blink's). It is NOT a dummy unit. Blink's system cost $1,500 plus installation. Three years @ $50 a month = $1800, which includes installation. Comparison to that three year timeline, your about even. Since eVgo uses the AV unit, its smaller and doesn't have the bugs some units have (hint hint, jut go look at the blink topics).

I feel like a a broken record, but it looks like your first point contradicts your second point. To make it apples to apples, $1800 + (buyout cost) to compare to the purchase price of whatever EVSE you are comparing it to. Does the grid connected unit get the user any additional value? If what, what value does it give it?

 

[Aeolus]

Evgo's model may work for some people, but they will be making a huge mistake if they do not maximize the usage of their network by also offering individual charging at a reasonable rate.

They are using a monopoly model in a world where they actually have a lot of competition. The competition doesn't come from other charging stations, but from other decisions a driver can make about which vehicle to use.

I'm guessing that almost all EV owners have access to an additional vehicle, either through a family member, friend, car rental, or can have access through a car share network like ZipCar.