So, owners what range are you getting ?

[DaveEV]

So, what should I believe? 85% available? 87% available? There is no way to know since the instrumentation is so bad?

2% isn't that bad, I certainly wouldn't worry about 2%. FWIW, when I use Carwings I estimate my battery to be in similar shape to yours.

I think the only real way to truly estimate capacity is to gather recharge data from the wall using a calibrated meter accurate to at least 0.5 kWh.

This is the procedure I would recommend:

1. Discharge car to at least VLBW, even better to discharge lower. Note pack voltage, gids after letting the car rest a few minutes. Pack voltage should be 350V or less (See TickTock's handy volt/gid plot from his LEAF)
2. Charge to 80%. At a minimum note kWh, but also helpful to note time/gids/battery-volts after charge and wall voltage at some point during charge.
3. Charge to 100%. Note same values as above.

We already know from multiple sources that a new car will take 24-25 kWh from the wall from turtle to 100%. You can use your data to compare. Ideally we'd be able to datalog time, gids, battery volts, wall volts, wall current, wall power under a charge, but it'd some some extra equipment to get all of those combined.

If you want better data repeat the measurement a couple times. I would recommend using the heater to discharge the car below or to VLBW for consistency.

 

[RegGuheert]

Reg, map out an 80-ish mile loop or out-and-back (or whatever distance you think the car will go) and make it happen.

Thanks, Tony! I like your approach and I think I may give this a try. My Nissan dealer is right near Exit 311 on I-81. I could charge there and then hop onto the interstate and drive down the valley 40 miles and back and see how it goes. It is a constant series of hills, but no mountains and nothing as bad as what I see on your course. The speed limit is 70, but I think I could easily get away with 62. To minimize risk of getting stranded, I could either make progressively longer trips or stage my generator and a vehicle at the dealer to have someone come out and charge me.

Of course I would like to have a reference vehicle to run on the course with me. I'll see if I can finagle a 2013 from the dealer. Thanks again for the idea!

 

[RegGuheert]

Thanks, David!

2% isn't that bad, I certainly wouldn't worry about 2%. FWIW, when I use Carwings I estimate my battery to be in similar shape to yours.

Do you have any feel for how much is real degradation and how much is instrumentation?

I think the only real way to truly estimate capacity is to gather recharge data from the wall using a calibrated meter accurate to at least 0.5 kWh.

I agree this is a good approach, also. I have tried to do this a few times, but I am hampered by the fact that my meter is L1 and the best data we have from NREL is for L2 charging. Also, I question the accuracy of my meter, which is very old (~15 years!). My results thus far indicate I have good energy capacity, which is somewhat opposite of what I read from the car's meters. I suspect I will need to purchase a good-quality L2 meter which I can trust.

If I do that AND do some range testing per Tony perhaps I can start to converge on an answer to my quandary!

Thanks again!

 

[RCEV13]

Today I drove 81 miles round trip to work and back and finished the journey with 18% battery left over. My previous best effort was 14% remaining. I always charge overnight to 100%.

 

[ELROY]

Here is the latest results of my testing. With some very light footed driving, I managed to get 53.9 miles till LBW. I put it on the charger .50 mi later. I only took 3.93 hrs to charge it back to 80%.

So 3.93 hrs x 3.3kWh= 12.96 KwH (max) charge back into the battery.
Does that power back into the battery seem kind of low?
Economy is pretty good, but the range for that economy seems pretty low considering how slow and conservatively I drove for most of this last test session.

Date/Starting charge %/Miles Traveled/ Miiles per kWh/dash display/time in hrs to charge back to original charge %:

 

[dgpcolorado]

Here is the latest results of my testing. With some very light footed driving, I managed to get 53.9 miles till LBW. I put it on the charger .50 mi later. I only took 3.93 hrs to charge it back to 80%.

So 3.93 hrs x 3.3kWh= 12.96 KwH (max) charge back into the battery.
Does that power back into the battery seem kind of low?
Economy is pretty good, but the range for that economy seems pretty low considering how slow and conservatively I drove for most of this last test session.

Yes, that amount of recharge power seems quite low for going from LBW to 80%. I think that your concerns about your battery are well-founded. Something is not right.

 

[KJD]

Here is the latest results of my testing. With some very light footed driving, I managed to get 53.9 miles till LBW. I put it on the charger .50 mi later. I only took 3.93 hrs to charge it back to 80%.
So 3.93 hrs x 3.3kWh= 12.96 KwH (max) charge back into the battery.
Does that power back into the battery seem kind of low?
Economy is pretty good, but the range for that economy seems pretty low considering how slow and conservatively I drove for most of this last test session.

Can you borrow a GID meter from another LEAF driver in your area ? The numbers from that would be interesting to see on a 100% charge. It might show if the pack is degraded.

When was the last time you did a 100% charge ? Cell balancing seems to happen more often on a 100% charge than 80%, so I do mine about once a month.

 

[DaveEV]

With some very light footed driving, I managed to get 53.9 miles till LBW. I put it on the charger .50 mi later. I only took 3.93 hrs to charge it back to 80%.

So 3.93 hrs x 3.3kWh= 12.96 KwH (max) charge back into the battery.
Does that power back into the battery seem kind of low?

Don't know, Doesn't seem out of line to me. Looking back at my LBW->80% charge data my lowest was 3:22 12.585 kWh from the wall in December (Got LBW in the garage). I have to go back to middle of the year last year to get LBW->80% charge times approaching 4 hours unless I was charging from close to VLBW.

Edit: Yesterday, for example, drove 46 miles @4.6 mi/kWh and got home with 62 gid, so not far from LBW, in fact, I'd say my battery is a bit worse than yours which would be expected given the age of my car and miles driven.

Economy is pretty good, but the range for that economy seems pretty low considering how slow and conservatively I drove for most of this last test session.

Driving style is very subjective.

 

[ELROY]

Here is the latest results of my testing. With some very light footed driving, I managed to get 53.9 miles till LBW. I put it on the charger .50 mi later. I only took 3.93 hrs to charge it back to 80%.
So 3.93 hrs x 3.3kWh= 12.96 KwH (max) charge back into the battery.
Does that power back into the battery seem kind of low?
Economy is pretty good, but the range for that economy seems pretty low considering how slow and conservatively I drove for most of this last test session.

Can you borrow a GID meter from another LEAF driver in your area ? The numbers from that would be interesting to see on a 100% charge. It might show if the pack is degraded.

When was the last time you did a 100% charge ? Cell balancing seems to happen more often on a 100% charge than 80%, so I do mine about once a month.

I would love to borrow a GID meter if anyone is local to me in Ventura County. And yes, I generally charge to 80% and have never QC the battery. As you can see in the previous chart below, I went from 100% to turtle during my testing just a few wks ago. During those two complete charge cycles, the charge time seemed to indicate a max of about 21kWh going into the battery pack in about a 6.5hr charge time.

 

[LEAFfan]

ELROY, did you say you just run the fan? Because if you do, the HVAC is being used and would explain your low m/kW h. Most of the time, you can't run the fan without using the HVAC/heater.Also, even though the BC chart said one bar loss is 15%, it's really closer to 20%. I've checked at least a dozen LEAFs with one missing CB, and they were all around 80-81% (after a 100% charge) on the BCM.

 

[ELROY]

ELROY, did you say you just run the fan? Because if you do, the HVAC is being used and would explain your low m/kW h. Most of the time, you can't run the fan without using the HVAC/heater.Also, even though the BC chart said one bar loss is 15%, it's really closer to 20%. I've checked at least a dozen LEAFs with one missing CB, and they were all around 80-81% (after a 100% charge) on the BCM.

Almost never use the HVAC. Heater is too wasteful. I do use the AC for a few minutes here and there.

 

[planet4ever]

Here is the latest results of my testing. With some very light footed driving, I managed to get 53.9 miles till LBW. I put it on the charger .50 mi later. I only took 3.93 hrs to charge it back to 80%. So 3.93 hrs x 3.3kWh= 12.96 KwH (max) charge back into the battery. Does that power back into the battery seem kind of low?

LBW+0.5 to "80%" is, I believe, about 68% of the battery. 12.96/0.68 = ~19kWh. Yes, that seems low for a relatively new battery in presumably mild temperatures.

Ray

 

[dgpcolorado]

Here is the latest results of my testing. With some very light footed driving, I managed to get 53.9 miles till LBW. I put it on the charger .50 mi later. I only took 3.93 hrs to charge it back to 80%. So 3.93 hrs x 3.3kWh= 12.96 KwH (max) charge back into the battery. Does that power back into the battery seem kind of low?

LBW+0.5 to "80%" is, I believe, about 68% of the battery. 12.96/0.68 = ~19kWh. Yes, that seems low for a relatively new battery in presumably mild temperatures.

Ray

That was my conclusion also, although the numbers I used were a bit different:

LBW is about 17.5% and 80% is really 80% (of 24 kWh) per Phil. Ignoring the extra half mile at slow speed, 80% - 17.5% = 62.5% And 62.5% of 24 kWh would be 15 kWh used. Charging back up to 80% at mild temperatures with only 12.96 kWh seems to indicate a low battery capacity or, perhaps, some bad cells.

 

[shortcircuit]

I'm seeing between 85 and 100 miles range on 100% charge (no climate control). My round trip commute is about 65 miles on the 405 and I come home with about 20 to 35 miles left on GOM. The range variation has to do with speed. But even when I come home late and drive long bursts of 75 mph I still come home with 20 miles on the tank. When not driving fast I find myself coasting to stops and doing other subconscious tactics to increase range. Overall I'm pleasantly surprised with the range I'm seeing. The few times I've turned on the climate control resulted in only a 2 to 3 mile range loss (keep in mind the weather has been mild).

 

[mwalsh]

I'm seeing between 85 and 100 miles range on 100% charge (no climate control). My round trip commute is about 65 miles on the 405 and I come home with about 20 to 35 miles left on GOM. The range variation has to do with speed. But even when I come home late and drive long bursts of 75 mph I still come home with 20 miles on the tank. When not driving fast I find myself coasting to stops and doing other subconscious tactics to increase range. Overall I'm pleasantly surprised with the range I'm seeing. The few times I've turned on the climate control resulted in only a 2 to 3 mile range loss (keep in mind the weather has been mild).

Been there done that. But understand that in a year you'll be looking at a somewhat different ball-park. And in two years, you'll be doing everything you can to conserve so the round-trip can be made without mid-point refueling.

 

[edatoakrun]

Here is the latest results of my testing. With some very light footed driving, I managed to get 53.9 miles till LBW. I put it on the charger .50 mi later. I only took 3.93 hrs to charge it back to 80%. So 3.93 hrs x = 12.96 KwH (max) charge back into the battery. Does that power back into the battery seem kind of low?

LBW+0.5 to "80%" is, I believe, about 68% of the battery. 12.96/0.68 = ~19kWh. Yes, that seems low for a relatively new battery in presumably mild temperatures.

Ray

That was my conclusion also, although the numbers I used were a bit different:

LBW is about 17.5% and 80% is really 80% (of 24 kWh) per Phil. Ignoring the extra half mile at slow speed, 80% - 17.5% = 62.5% And 62.5% of 24 kWh would be 15 kWh used. Charging back up to 80% at mild temperatures with only 12.96 kWh seems to indicate a low battery capacity or, perhaps, some bad cells.

ELROY, I think you may be using the wrong value (3.3 kW) for your charge rate, and getting a correspondingly (~3.3%) lower estimate of your ~LBW to "80%" capacity.

Phil, who may note be quite infallible, but the best source we have, IMO, reports a charge rate of ~3.414 kW for the (pre-taper) charge up to "80%".

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=8583" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ingineer Post subject: Leaf Charging Efficiency - Lab Test (and Idle power draw)


Here are my charging measurements on the Leaf:

Charging using the original 120v EVSE: (112.5v recorded at EVSE input)

Standby Power: 4.9w
Charge Power in: 1.451kW
Power to Leaf Battery: 1.125kW
Total Power Lost: 326w
Total Charge Efficiency: 77.5%

These measurements are all using our Rev2 Upgraded EVSE:

120v: (112.6v recorded at EVSE input)
Standby Power: 1.7w
Charge Power in: 1.436kW
Power to Leaf Battery: 1.125kW
Total Power Lost: 311w
Total Charge Efficiency: 78.3%

240v: (239.8v recorded at EVSE input)
Standby Power: 3.4w
Charge Power in: 3.756kW
Power to Leaf Battery: 3.414kW
Total Power Lost: 342w
Total Charge Efficiency: 90.9%
All these measurements were with the Leaf pack at around 62 degrees F and ~65% SoC....

Also, It's not very clear if you tried to (or needed to) consider battery temperature while charging into your calculations.

FYI, these are the timed charge results I have gotten for my ~ 2 year old ~17,000 mile warm-climate LEAF.

edatoakrun Post subject: Re: Collecting data:Off-the-wall power for turtle to 100%

Another ~VLBW to "80%" timed charge result to post.

Following my 4/2/13 range test, it took ~4 hours and 14 minutes to recharge, after a reported 15.7 kWh use.

This compares with:


Quote:
..16 amp 240v recharge (following the 9/8/12 range test)....took 4 hours and 16 minutes to reach 80% (and another one hour and 11 minutes to reach “100%”) following this trip...(after a reported 16.7 kWh used).

This compares to a recharge time of ~4 hours 25 minutes to reach “80%” following my first range test, on 9/7/11, with a reported 18.7 kWh used from 100% to about the same capacity level, ~VLBW.


http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=9064&start=30" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, assuming a constant charge rate to "80%", and that "80%" is a constant percentage of total battery capacity, both of which seem to be largely accepted, I think this is further evidence that my LEAF's available battery capacity has not declined very significantly since 9/7/11, and the kWh use reports from CW, which are used to calculate both my dash and nav screen m/kWh, are probably significantly lower than actual, as is also my conclusion from the range tests results.

I expect that the lower capacity and lower charging efficiency of my ~50 f battery (as opposed to the ~75 F battery during the 2011 and 2012 Summer tests) both had some effects on the charge time after the 4/2/13 range test, so I think those results are not as definitive as those I'll be able to collect once the weather heats up to "summer" conditions...

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=6876&start=200" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is a lot more on that thread you may find interesting.

 

[ELROY]

I figure with the taper, on a 4-5hr charge, maybe the average is around 3.35-3.40 kWh over the charge session?

So big question: When the EPA is testing...how do they derive the 73 miles. I assume that is 100% charge to LBW? VLBW? Turtle? Or full exhaustion,,,LOL.

And members on this forum saying they can go over 60-70miles on the HWY. Is that till VLBW? If it is only till LBW, then I seriously envy your car's range.

Results of my latest testing.

80% Charge. Drove 50.7 miles till LBW with a 4.3 mi/kWh dash readout.
Hit VLBW at 60.8 miles. Took 4.65 hrs to charge to 80% again from 61.7 total miles driven.

Still quite surprised how the bars disappear. I understand the 1st, and maybe 2nd bar are quick, but down 3 bars in only 8.4 miles??

In the name of science, does someone in SoCal have a GID Meter they can rent me for 2 wks?
I live in very mild temps. No Quick charging. Mostly 80% charging. I really think my range has been iffy since the day I picked up my LEAF.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
Re: the EPA tests, http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2433" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; might help along w/the links from http://priuschat.com/threads/car-and-driver-the-truth-about-epa-city-highway-mpg-estimates.67235/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

The C&D article was written WAY before the Leaf and is more applicable to ICEVs. On ICEVs, they derive the fuel economy by measuring tailpipe emissions (not actual fuel consumption) after running a bunch of test cycles (details in the links) while on a dyno. On a BEV, you obviously can't measure tailpipe emissions.

I'm sure there are other threads here on MNL relating to EPA testing on the '11 and '12 Leaf.

Side note: The observation at http://green.autoblog.com/2013/01/03/fuel-economy-follies-cheatin-or-mistaken/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is disturbing.

Through complex calculations, this data then determines a vehicle's road-load energy usage as a function of speed, which becomes a major mathematical factor in the EPA's highway test calculation. So if its reported road-load curve is inaccurately low, a car's EPA highway rating (and also, as a result, its city/highway "combined" rating) will be unrealistically high. And while the EPA audits automakers' test procedures and runs emissions/fuel-economy tests (on a small percentage of vehicles) in its own Ann Arbor, MI dynamometer lab to validate their results, with no suitable facility to run their own coast-down tests, they have had to accept automakers' road-load power numbers as submitted.

From that, I and others on Priuschat are wondering if it's Ford optimizing well for the EPA test or if there are intentional or accidental errors in their coast-down numbers as their EPA mileage numbers are real high on recent vehicles (C-Max, '13 Fusion Hybrid, etc.) yet everyone seems to get worse "real world" or similar mileage vs. Toyota hybrids w/lower EPA ratings (e.g. Prius v wagon and Camry Hybrid).

More on the Ford uproar at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=248506#p248506" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and later there I have links to some info about the Hyundai/Kia screwup.

 

[DaveEV]

So big question: When the EPA is testing...how do they derive the 73 miles. I assume that is 100% charge to LBW? VLBW? Turtle? Or full exhaustion,,,LOL.

They drive the car on the test cycle until it is no longer capable of maintaining proper speed on the test. Basically, until turtle mode.

And members on this forum saying they can go over 60-70miles on the HWY. Is that till VLBW? If it is only till LBW, then I seriously envy your car's range.

At 65 mph, 60-70 miles to LBW or VLBW is typical.

Still quite surprised how the bars disappear. I understand the 1st, and maybe 2nd bar are quick, but down 3 bars in only 8.4 miles??

That on a 80% charge? Not unheard of...

 

[ELROY]

So big question: When the EPA is testing...how do they derive the 73 miles. I assume that is 100% charge to LBW? VLBW? Turtle? Or full exhaustion,,,LOL.

They drive the car on the test cycle until it is no longer capable of maintaining proper speed on the test. Basically, until turtle mode.

And members on this forum saying they can go over 60-70miles on the HWY. Is that till VLBW? If it is only till LBW, then I seriously envy your car's range.

At 65 mph, 60-70 miles to LBW or VLBW is typical.

Still quite surprised how the bars disappear. I understand the 1st, and maybe 2nd bar are quick, but down 3 bars in only 8.4 miles??

That on a 80% charge? Not unheard of...

So it seems I might be about 10 miles short on range in similar hwy driving.

If other members are getting 60-70 miles till LBW at 100% charge, what economy are they needing to achieve that? About 4.0 mi/kWh? On the EPA 72 mile rating, what number does that translate to in the dash economy reading?

If the EPA is only getting 72 miles till turtle, and others are getting 70miles till LBW, the EPA must be achieving less than 4.0mi/kWh dash reading equivalent? Between LBW and turtle there is a good 13 miles or so.

Do you have a GID meter? I really need to get a reading on my LEAF and was wondering if someone would rent me one for a couple of weeks.

Also, Drees, I was looking at your 18 panel PV system. What type/wattage panels are you using? I was wondering how much is lost through the inverters as you will averaging well below 160 watts even during peak hrs. I don't have much prime roof space, so I was hoping to get at least 215 watts out of the M215s using 250 watt panels.