Tesla Powerwall

[evnow]

The SolarEdge inverter allows PV panels to be connected.

Solar in the NW in winter - in a storm (when we lose power) is not a good backup source. It is also very expensive here - to say the least.

BTW, the 1KW inverter on Leaf - where do you connect that ?

What we really need is a good 10 kW Leaf to Home solution from Nissan. Even if that costs $5k, it would be worth it for us.

 

[BrockWI]

Here is the discussion on using inverters with the leaf

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=13097" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Personally I have a Xantrex Prowatt SW2000 and have loaded it up and the Leaf powers it fine.

 

[RegGuheert]

What we really need is a good 10 kW Leaf to Home solution from Nissan. Even if that costs $5k, it would be worth it for us.

+1

When I was on the advisory board, I practically *begged* Nissan to offer a 2kW Chademo inverter for the LEAF (similar to what Mitsubishi had for the iMiev), but they weren't interested in releasing one. There is certainly a market for this sort of thing.

 

[lorenfb]

What we really need is a good 10 kW Leaf to Home solution from Nissan. Even if that costs $5k, it would be worth it for us.

Given the personal injury liability, damage to the vehicle, e.g. the battery/the switching electronics, the
result of unknown loads and connections, most all OEM automotive manufacturers would never provide
such a functional use of their vehicles.

 

[AndyH]

What we really need is a good 10 kW Leaf to Home solution from Nissan. Even if that costs $5k, it would be worth it for us.

+1

When I was on the advisory board, I practically *begged* Nissan to offer a 2kW Chademo inverter for the LEAF (similar to what Mitsubishi had for the iMiev), but they weren't interested in releasing one. There is certainly a market for this sort of thing.

I was under the impression that Nissan is already deploying their vehicle to home units in Japan. I thought I also read that bi-directional flow on CHAdeMO requires a more recent version than the (1.0?) we have in the US.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bY9NsSAriU[/youtube]

BTW...when one is off-grid they don't have to plan for what to do if the grid goes down.

Edit...figures - they're already on the ground in CA
http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/...to-grid-project-at-los-angeles-air-force-base
http://www.technologytell.com/in-ca...ey-vehicle-home-grid-research-automaker-says/

 

[RegGuheert]

I thought I also read that bi-directional flow on CHAdeMO requires a more recent version than the (1.0?) we have in the US.

I'm talking about a 2kW portable unit...

 

[lorenfb]

http://www.technologytell.com/in-ca...ey-vehicle-home-grid-research-automaker-says/

Wait until Nissan's legal department gets involved and battery warranty issues are reviewed.
You think the Leaf has customer complaints now about range degradation and the Leaf's
battery warranty. See what happens when another battery variable, e.g. home power
backup, becomes a factor in potential degradation and the subsequent Nissan Leaf battery
warranty exceptions that are required to protect Nissan's liability. This issue could possibly result
in a non-viable use of the Leaf's battery other than for vehicle energy storage when considering
problematic legal aspects.

 

[AndyH]

I thought I also read that bi-directional flow on CHAdeMO requires a more recent version than the (1.0?) we have in the US.

I'm talking about a 2kW portable unit...

Yeah, silly. I recall now that was for CHAdeMO bi-directional vehicle to grid, not for feeding an inverter via the CHAdeMO port.

I guess a combination of GaryGid's mini-CHAdeMO work with an inverter capable of feeding from a 400V battery would be a fun DIY project...

 

[TonyWilliams]

I thought I also read that bi-directional flow on CHAdeMO requires a more recent version than the (1.0?) we have in the US.

I'm talking about a 2kW portable unit...

Yeah, silly. I recall now that was for CHAdeMO bi-directional vehicle to grid, not for feeding an inverter via the CHAdeMO port.

I guess a combination of GaryGid's mini-CHAdeMO work with an inverter capable of feeding from a 400V battery would be a fun DIY project...

Actually, you could still charge the car with the built in charger (J1772) and use the CHAdeMO port without any charger... just a plug, some electronics to open and close the main contactor on the battery, and an inverter.

 

[RegGuheert]

Actually, you could still charge the car with the built in charger (J1772) and use the CHAdeMO port without any charger... just a plug, some electronics to open and close the main contactor on the battery, and an inverter.

That's right, and it is exactly what Mitsubishi did with the iMiev PowerBox:

Mitsubishi PowerBox Press Release

IMO, this is the cheapest, simplest and safest way to provide AC power from an EV for emergency power or for portable power such as camping, etc.

Unfortunately, Nissan assured me that this unit would not work with the LEAF.

 

[evnow]

BTW...when one is off-grid they don't have to plan for what to do if the grid goes down.

Good thing about being homeless is they don't have to get home insurance

 

[Slow1]

BTW...when one is off-grid they don't have to plan for what to do if the grid goes down.

Good thing about being homeless is they don't have to get home insurance

AND you can vote for unlimited property taxes which actually fits well into the whole discussion. What is best for the individual is not always best for society eh? If "those that can afford it" are able to go off-grid, will they continue to provide the same level of support for the rest? A 'public utility' requires that the public support it (financially at least, even if not politically). I have rather serious concerns if there is a trend toward folks who are serviced by public utilities choose to pull the plug.

I do see distributed storage and generation as good for the grid as a whole (even if a bit more complex to manage) but I do wonder where we will (as a society) end up with this...

 

[mjblazin]

I wouldn't worry about it. No one except the people way out there actually leave the grid. They like to play at being their own utility, but when something goes wrong, they still want to flip the breaker and power up off the real utilities.

 

[RegGuheert]

If "those that can afford it" are able to go off-grid, will they continue to provide the same level of support for the rest? A 'public utility' requires that the public support it (financially at least, even if not politically). I have rather serious concerns if there is a trend toward folks who are serviced by public utilities choose to pull the plug.

That argument is leveled against those of us who stay on-grid and net-meter our electricity. In my case, I am basically renting a near-ideal 4MWh battery for about $11/month. If only a few do that, it doesn't add significantly to the costs that others bear. But as larger percentages of people net-meter, the grid costs get transferred to those without PV. The result is that the electricity providers are starting a backlash against individual PV producers. But that backlash can only go so far, since it makes no sense to produce all of your own power and then pay the same fees as those who do not.

As such, I don't see how you can criticize anyone for dropping completely off the grid, regardless of what they pay to do that. The electricity grid in this country exists as a public utility precisely for the reason that it provides for the public good and because technology has not allowed any reasonable alternatives. But that is changing rapidly. We are about to go through a period in which more-and-more people will find that comparable service to what is provided by the utility can be achieved in a different manner at similar or even lower costs. The trend will result in a positive feedback effect due to fixed-grid expenses being borne by fewer and fewer subscribers. The utilities will eventually find themselves no longer able to be cost-effective with competing technologies, even though much of their capital costs in the past have been paid for through public funds.

No doubt this will be a challenging transition, but I don't see any indication that the grid can avoid the crossover. So, what to do? How long should we prop up this crutch which we created in the 20th century? Will it always be needed, or will we eventually be better off without it? I certainly don't know the answer to that, but I do know one thing: More and more of my world is powered by batteries. (My house was about 15 years ago, but it is not, currently.)

It's ironic: Nikola Tesla invented much of the technology which makes our modern electricity grid what it is today. Now a company founded in his name is marketing technology which may signal the beginning of the end for much of that grid.

 

[dgpcolorado]

Perhaps it was mentioned upthread and I missed it, but I found this interesting:

He opened up, for example, about the competing chemistries at play in the lithium-ion industry. Musk has always been a robust defender of a chemistry called nickel-cobalt-aluminum (NCA), which he buys from Panasonic and has installed in all his electric cars. On an energy to mass basis, he says, NCA has the best performance of any of its rivals.

But Musk divulged that his $3,000 home battery will contain not NCA, but a competitor chemistry that he has previously scorned—NMC, which relies on manganese rather than aluminum. He suggested that his shift is because NMC can better undergo a daily regime of charging and discharging.

Musk unsurprisingly said it was no big deal, which may have been why the stock analysts overlooked the disclosure. “We just want to use the best chemistry,” he said. But the news is important because it shows a new public flexibility on his part. [emphasis added]

http://qz.com/400314/elon-musk-is-sick-of-inventors-pitching-him-the-next-big-thing-in-batteries/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I was wondering if that was the case since NCA might need a robust TMS to keep it safe. And if weight and energy density aren't major factors, as is the case with cars, then NMC makes a lot of sense for stationary applications.

 

[RegGuheert]

Good find, dgpcolorado! IMO, NMC makes a LOT more sense than NCA for this application.

 

[AndyH]

BTW...when one is off-grid they don't have to plan for what to do if the grid goes down.

Good thing about being homeless is they don't have to get home insurance

Please connect the dots here? Pretty please? :shock:

 

[AndyH]

BTW...when one is off-grid they don't have to plan for what to do if the grid goes down.

Good thing about being homeless is they don't have to get home insurance

AND you can vote for unlimited property taxes which actually fits well into the whole discussion. What is best for the individual is not always best for society eh? If "those that can afford it" are able to go off-grid, will they continue to provide the same level of support for the rest? A 'public utility' requires that the public support it (financially at least, even if not politically). I have rather serious concerns if there is a trend toward folks who are serviced by public utilities choose to pull the plug.

I do see distributed storage and generation as good for the grid as a whole (even if a bit more complex to manage) but I do wonder where we will (as a society) end up with this...

Paradigm warning...paradigm warning...

Ok, you seem to think that off grid = tons of money. You also seem to think that the current power grid and generation is better for society than if we all moved to PV and wind.

Seriously?

When the power grid is handled by for-profit corporations, when generation is handled the same way, and when they both own a majority of politicians, the only way a common person (whether millionaire or working poor) can make their voices heard is to refuse to be part of a system that's harming them. (Directly via water use, emissions, etc. and indirectly as in the many parts of the country where people are losing access to power and water. Yes, this country - the USA.)

It can be much, much less expensive to be off grid if one lives efficiently. We've talked about actual numbers in other threads here - and I've done a direct side-by-side for my on- and off-grid housing (same size, same comfort, same capabilities, same computers, etc.). Bottom line - the money I pay grid electricity for five years completely covers a full off-grid PV system - panels, mounts, inverter, charger, battery, etc. that'll provide at least 10 years of service (the battery and possibly inverter) and more than 40 years (the PV).

Yes, generators can be an option for backup power, but they're not a universal option. During the aftermath of Sandy there were a lot of people that had completely useless gasoline, diesel, and LPG generators because they couldn't get fuel when the electricity was down. Those with PV or solar thermal went off-line with the grid. In some areas the natural gas grid was shut down because of widespread damage and multiple fires. The folks that were able to continue to operate either had large LP tanks in their yards or had back-up batteries, or had at least some off-grid capability. Then there was Katrina...

Emergency planning should probably consider worst-case for one's particular area and hazards. Too many Americans from a full range of economic conditions have been learning that the hard way recently.

 

[AndyH]

Good find, dgpcolorado! IMO, NMC makes a LOT more sense than NCA for this application.

Isn't NMC one of the least expensive lithium varieties on the market? It's not one with the most robust cycle life, either.

 

[lorenfb]

Nikola Tesla invented much of the technology which makes our modern electricity grid what it is today. Now a company founded in his name is marketing technology which may signal the beginning of the end for much of that grid.

Hardly! Tesla has a long way to go in providing a complete system/solution where such a statement
has any validity. Tesla needs to focus on its core business and not divert attention from that business
with hyperbole the result of potential product delays, e.g. the Model X. Is it just coincidence that within
the week of the Powerwall announcement, Tesla announces a “captive fleet” for the Model X in August
to "iron out the issues"?