Tesla Supercharger Network

[Zythryn]

...
so the person who posted that TESLA is building out the charging infrastructure according to some odd fantasies of musk wasn't far off the mark.

It became far off the mark when they used absolutes. Yes, his desired route is PART of the reason, but certainly not the only part.

As for your use of the word 'fantasy' at least Musk is turning them into reality which is more than most.

 

[apvbguy]

...
so the person who posted that TESLA is building out the charging infrastructure according to some odd fantasies of musk wasn't far off the mark.

It became far off the mark when they used absolutes. Yes, his desired route is PART of the reason, but certainly not the only part.

As for your use of the word 'fantasy' at least Musk is turning them into reality which is more than most.

I agree that he has done more than almost anyone else in implementing his concepts however in this context his fantasies do not appear to be in the best interests of the TESLA operation.

 

[abasile]

...
so the person who posted that TESLA is building out the charging infrastructure according to some odd fantasies of musk wasn't far off the mark.

It became far off the mark when they used absolutes. Yes, his desired route is PART of the reason, but certainly not the only part.

As for your use of the word 'fantasy' at least Musk is turning them into reality which is more than most.

I agree that he has done more than almost anyone else in implementing his concepts however in this context his fantasies do not appear to be in the best interests of the TESLA operation.

Really, in the grand scheme of things for Tesla, this is small potatoes. Several comparatively isolated chargers along one interstate is not by itself going to break the bank.

For many, purchasing a Tesla vehicle involves buying into a dream. Personally, I'm really stoked that when I do eventually buy a Tesla X (or maybe S), I'll be able to utilize the Supercharger network to drive my family to some of our favorite parks in the American West. While that does nothing for the practical needs of intercity Tesla drivers in more populous areas (though they will eventually be taken care of as well), it tends to capture the imagination and hits home the point that long-distance EVs are for real. In other words, it's a marketing expense.

 

[palmermd]

Really, in the grand scheme of things for Tesla, this is small potatoes. Several comparatively isolated chargers along one interstate is not by itself going to break the bank.

For many, purchasing a Tesla vehicle involves buying into a dream. Personally, I'm really stoked that when I do eventually buy a Tesla X (or maybe S), I'll be able to utilize the Supercharger network to drive my family to some of our favorite parks in the American West. While that does nothing for the practical needs of intercity Tesla drivers in more populous areas (though they will eventually be taken care of as well), it tends to capture the imagination and hits home the point that long-distance EVs are for real. In other words, it's a marketing expense.

Correct. A year from now (probably 6 months) all this will be forgotten and all the i-95 folks will be happy and praising Tesla for installing a free long distance network. Not like us who after 3 years are still trying to get just a handful of DCQC chargers. Heck, I live in the state capitol of the epicenter of the EV movement and there are only 2 DCQC chargers within driving distance of my house. I've got 2 Superchargers within that distance as well.

 

[GRA]

Guy, you are using the wrong measure. Total population is not the basis of deciding where superchargers should go.
The decision is based on two things primarily, population of Model S cars and allowing access to long distance trips.

There are more Model S owners in Minnesota than in Kansas or Nebraska. Add to that a destination such as Mount Rushmore or the Mall Of America in Minnesota and it supports the idea of a cross country route through the North.

Yes, part of the reason is the route Elon took with his brother years ago. All I am saying is there are other factors that come into play that also support that route over one through Nebraska.

The measure I use is highest population density, modified by other factors such as # of actual or potential customers with Tesla demographics, frequency of travel, regional tourist destinations etc. Thus, New York, which ranks 27th in area but 3rd in population, should be served before South Dakota (17th in area, 46th in population). Or take Florida, 22nd in area but 4th in population, and also has tourist attractions like 'Wally World', Cape Canaveral, Key West etc.

I haven't suggested that there are lots of Tesla owners in Kansas or Nebraska, and I doubt that there will be in the latter at least, for some time. St. Louis may well be a different matter in the not too distant future, and there are already Teslas in both STL and KCM. The map below shows that there are Teslas in Kansas and Nebraska, while the grand total of Teslas in North and South Dakota, Montana and the NE corner of Wyoming is either zero or one (not sure of the precise location of the one on the MN-SD border, but it's probably in Fargo):

http://insideevs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/model-s-us.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I've stated that I'm all in favor of providing SCs from Chicago to the Twin Cities metro area, because the metro area is where the Teslas are. Are you saying that there are lots of Teslas in Minnesota outside of the Twin Cities metro, cause they aren't on the map? OTOH, Teslas are heavily represented east of I-55 (Chicago-New Orleans), and fairly well represented in the states between I-35 and I-55, plus metro areas in Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, and of course the west coast. So you tell me, looking at the above map, which X-C route serves the largest # of Tesla owners and the greatest number of destinations. It looks to me like it's either I-80, I-70 or I-10 (plus I-20, Texas eastward, and I-8, Arizona westward).

Based on the above criteria and the actual distribution of owners, the very last transcontinental interstates that should be provided with SCs are the sections of I-90 and I-94 between I-15 (Butte) and I-35 (Twin Cities and Albert Lea). There's no one there, and the population centers are too far away to generate lots of through car traffic. Once the SCs are built to I-35 from the east they can be extended to I-29 (Fargo and Sioux Falls), and from Butte they can be extended first to Billings before finally joining them up.

I repeat: there is no commercial justification at all for putting SCs along I-90 through the empty northern tier states at this time. Their installation along I-90 in this area is not 'partly due' to Elon Musk's wish to repeat a trip for nostalgia reasons; it's wholly due to that. It's ridiculous that there are currently more SCs present or under construction in South Dakota than there are in New York State.

 

[scottf200]

http://insideevs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/model-s-us.jpg

Source of that map is owners doing self-selection to be on it. https://www.zeemaps.com/map?group=295135" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

~2056 self-selected Volt owners make for a novel comparison showing similar locations:

 

[GRA]

http://insideevs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/model-s-us.jpg

Source of that map is owners doing self-selection to be on it. https://www.zeemaps.com/map?group=295135" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

~2056 self-selected Volt owners make for a novel comparison showing similar locations:

Of course it's self-selected, but do you believe there are large numbers of Tesla (or for that matter Volt) owners who prefer to remain anonymous in the northern tier states, owing to some regionally-based reticence? Do you have better distribution info, because owner-supplied maps were all I could find.

With a few minor exceptions owing to the Volt's lower price, better tolerance to cold and ability to use the existing gasoline infrastructure, you could swap the maps without seeing a significant change in the distribution.

 

[dhanson865]

Chicago-Minneapolis is actually a very well traveled route.

is it more traveled than I95 to and from FLA? the huge gap from central FLA to NC renders that trip as undoable, despite promises to get the chargers in place TESLA is putting chargers "in the middle of nowhere"
Another area being ignored is I10 from FLA to TX which is a heavily traveled one as well.
CA and the west coast is being built out in a timely manner affording the people there the opportunity to make the maximum use of their EV, those of us in the SE US are being treated like orphans.

Florida to North Carolina is also under construction and should be up over the next couple of months.
Just because Tesla isn't building superchargers solely in the SE doesn't mean Tesla is ignoring the SE.

In construction currently includes

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/24770-Supercharger-Lumberton-NC" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (Lumberton, NC), more discussion at http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/24304-Lumberton-NC-Supercharger/page2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/22256-Savannah-GA-SuperCharger/page4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (Savannah, GA) expected by end of Dec 2013 / beginning of Jan 2014

missing still is one near Jacksonville (no site selected yet)

and

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/24991-South-Carolina-Supercharger/page2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; which will be in Santee, SC but I'm not sure if construction has started or not.

considering the progress I'd expect that corridor to be open relatively quick. Will it be Feb, Mar, Apr? I don't know, the Jacksonville location will probably be the last to complete if I had to guess.

The old supercharger plans were to put them no further apart than 200 miles but newer plans are revising that to no further than 130 miles apart so it changed the location of a few and the scheduling related to the ones that got moved.

I'm still impressed with the pace even though my city won't get a supercharger for another year or so.

 

[dhanson865]

Oh and as to "renders that trip as undoable" what happened to L2 chargers? Is no one willing to use a HPWC at a service center or other site? How about J1772 chargers?

There are 5 stores and service centers in FL (would a store have a HPWC?, I know the Service Centers do), lets see which are on I-95

Dania Beach is on I-95 near Ft. Lauderdale (just north of Miami) and is a SC

Dadeland is near Dania beach and is just a store, sends you to Dania Beach if you need a SC
Lincoln Road is near Dania beach and is just a store, sends you to Dania Beach if you need a SC

Orlando is a SC but there is a supercharger within 40 miles or so of Orlando so you probably wouldn't need their HPWC.

Tampa is on the other side of the state from I-95 so it isn't even a consideration.

 

[dhanson865]

In construction currently includes

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/24770-Supercharger-Lumberton-NC" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (Lumberton, NC), more discussion at http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/24304-Lumberton-NC-Supercharger/page2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/22256-Savannah-GA-SuperCharger/page4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (Savannah, GA) expected by end of Dec 2013 / beginning of Jan 2014

missing still is one near Jacksonville (no site selected yet)

and

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/24991-South-Carolina-Supercharger/page2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; which will be in Santee, SC but I'm not sure if construction has started or not.

considering the progress I'd expect that corridor to be open relatively quick. Will it be Feb, Mar, Apr? I don't know, the Jacksonville location will probably be the last to complete if I had to guess.

The old supercharger plans were to put them no further apart than 200 miles but newer plans are revising that to no further than 130 miles apart so it changed the location of a few and the scheduling related to the ones that got moved.

I'm still impressed with the pace even though my city won't get a supercharger for another year or so.

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/25065-Supercharger-Santee-SC?p=525635&viewfull=1#post525635" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Turns out Santee is almost done, should be turned on before Christmas and then they are moving up to finish off the Lumberton location.

So the order of completion in that line should be

Santee (Dec 2013)
Lumberton (Dec 2013 or Jan 2014)
Savannah (Dec 2013 or Jan 2014)
Jacksonville (early 2014? Like Feb to Mar maybe)

I'm still not sure if Lumberton or Savannah will open first or if they will have same day status.

 

[apvbguy]

Jacksonville (early 2014? Like Feb to Mar maybe)

interesting, since this is december of '13, early '14 sounds a bit optimistic considering that AFAIK they don't have a site and they haven't pulled any permits.

 

[dhanson865]

Jacksonville (early 2014? Like Feb to Mar maybe)

interesting, since this is December of '13, early '14 sounds a bit optimistic considering that AFAIK they don't have a site and they haven't pulled any permits.

Sorry, I'm not a FL person. How about calling it St Augustine instead of Jacksonville?

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/25177-St-Augustine-Supercharger?p=525640" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Even if you go out to 2015 there isn't another supercharger closer to Jacksonville than the St Augustine dot so I've been thinking of it as "the Jacksonville supercharger".

so make the list

Santee (Dec 2013)
Lumberton (Dec 2013 or Jan 2014)
Savannah (Dec 2013 or Jan 2014)
ST Augustine (early 2014?)

 

[apvbguy]

Jacksonville (early 2014? Like Feb to Mar maybe)

interesting, since this is December of '13, early '14 sounds a bit optimistic considering that AFAIK they don't have a site and they haven't pulled any permits.

Sorry, I'm not a FL person. How about calling it St Augustine instead of Jacksonville?

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/25177-St-Augustine-Supercharger?p=525640" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Even if you go out to 2015 there isn't another supercharger closer to Jacksonville than the St Augustine dot so I've been thinking of it as "the Jacksonville supercharger".

so make the list

Santee (Dec 2013)
Lumberton (Dec 2013 or Jan 2014)
Savannah (Dec 2013 or Jan 2014)
ST Augustine (early 2014?)

thanks for the info, while not JAX, it surely is close enough, it is about 40 miles or so from the center of JAX .

 

[GRA]

interesting, since this is December of '13, early '14 sounds a bit optimistic considering that AFAIK they don't have a site and they haven't pulled any permits.

Sorry, I'm not a FL person. How about calling it St Augustine instead of Jacksonville?

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/25177-St-Augustine-Supercharger?p=525640" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Even if you go out to 2015 there isn't another supercharger closer to Jacksonville than the St Augustine dot so I've been thinking of it as "the Jacksonville supercharger".

so make the list

Santee (Dec 2013)
Lumberton (Dec 2013 or Jan 2014)
Savannah (Dec 2013 or Jan 2014)
ST Augustine (early 2014?)

thanks for the info, while not JAX, it surely is close enough, it is about 40 miles or so from the center of JAX .

According to Google maps it's 175 miles from St. Augustine to Savannah, so that's okay for an 85 (when new), but tough for a 60 (per Tesla calculator, range 180 miles at 70 mph [FL rural interstate limit] and 90 deg. using A/C). St. Augustine is okay for traffic from northbound I-95 to I-10 and vice versa, assuming an SC is put in at Lake City (I-10/I-75), but Lake City is too far from Savannah, ca. 190 miles An SC in Jacksonville is still needed.

 

[dhanson865]

According to Google maps it's 175 miles from St. Augustine to Savannah, so that's okay for an 85 (when new), but tough for a 60 (per Tesla calculator, range 180 miles at 70 mph [FL rural interstate limit] and 90 deg. using A/C). St. Augustine is okay for traffic from northbound I-95 to I-10 and vice versa, assuming an SC is put in at Lake City (I-10/I-75), but Lake City is too far from Savannah, ca. 190 miles An SC in Jacksonville is still needed.

Not that hard to slow down to 65 instead of 70 (on the high speed portion with slower speeds off the interstate) or stop at a j1772 north of jax for 30 minutes then speed back up again.

I'm sure some day they'll add a supercharger between ST Augustine and Savannah but until they do even the S40 can make the trip if they take their time and/or charge at a j1772 along the way.

S40 can do about 150 miles at 55 mph (so they would want to charge for about 50 miles worth on a j1772), S60 should do more like 190 miles at 55 mph (might be able to do 60 part of the way without stopping to charge). I'm not sure what speed a S85 would have to go to burn all its juice before 190 miles are up.

 

[apvbguy]

or stop at a j1772 north of jax for 30 minutes then speed back up again.

which j1772 could you be referring to? there is one at the airport but not only must you pay for the power you have to pay for the spot to park.

 

[dhanson865]

or stop at a j1772 north of jax for 30 minutes then speed back up again.

which j1772 could you be referring to? there is one at the airport but not only must you pay for the power you have to pay for the spot to park.

Those stupid chargers with a .49 per kwh rate all over FL don't look nice. No way I'd stop at the airport for that sort of price even if the parking fee was waived because you still have to have a membership card that is something like $20 up front.

If you had to go this weekend from ST Augustine to Savannah, (somehow the superchargers that haven't completed construction were opened Friday), and needed 20 miles extra charge you could stop at one of these:

Coggin Nissan At The Avenues (about 20 miles north of the supercharger but still south of JAX)
Coggin Nissan (about 30 miles north of the ST Aug supercharger, on east side of JAX)
Golden Isles Nissan (100 miles north of ST aug supercharger, well north of JAX)

In fact Golden Isles Nissan is nicely in the middle of the trip and only 1 mile off of I-95. Dealership is open 8am to 9pm, it doesn't look like there is anything within walking distance so it'd just be a bathroom break and maybe a vending machine or whatever mini cafe they have in the dealer. There are restaurants close enough that you could grab something to go, then eat at the dealership while you are charging if you have nothing else to do while you wait. There is a Cell tower a few hundred feet from the dealership so you know you'd at least have good cell/internet access.

It isn't perfect but it'd get you back on the road and you only have to charge there until you are comfortable going on to the next supercharger.

Personally I'd rather drive slower than to sit completely still at a Nissan dealership but if you feel safer driving faster and are willing to pay the price by sitting at a stop for 30 minutes to an hour it might cover your range issues.

 

[GRA]

According to Google maps it's 175 miles from St. Augustine to Savannah, so that's okay for an 85 (when new), but tough for a 60 (per Tesla calculator, range 180 miles at 70 mph [FL rural interstate limit] and 90 deg. using A/C). St. Augustine is okay for traffic from northbound I-95 to I-10 and vice versa, assuming an SC is put in at Lake City (I-10/I-75), but Lake City is too far from Savannah, ca. 190 miles An SC in Jacksonville is still needed.

Not that hard to slow down to 65 instead of 70 (on the high speed portion with slower speeds off the interstate) or stop at a j1772 north of jax for 30 minutes then speed back up again.

I'm sure some day they'll add a supercharger between ST Augustine and Savannah but until they do even the S40 can make the trip if they take their time and/or charge at a j1772 along the way.

S40 can do about 150 miles at 55 mph (so they would want to charge for about 50 miles worth on a j1772), S60 should do more like 190 miles at 55 mph (might be able to do 60 part of the way without stopping to charge). I'm not sure what speed a S85 would have to go to burn all its juice before 190 miles are up.

That assumes that the typical freeway cruising speed is

a. at or below the posted speed limit

and

b. The average Tesla owner is willing to pay $70k+ to drive slower than semis.

Judging by my own experience and many others of the real rural freeway speeds out west, a. isn't correct. An example:

"Utah did its own research [Note: on boosting the speed limit to 80 on some freeways]. The Utah Department of Transportation conducted a study beginning in 2008 on a stretch of I-15 where the speed limit was 75 mph. The study found a 20 percent drop in the number of people exceeding the posted speed limit, according to Robert Hull, director of traffic and safety with the Utah DOT. In addition, data from the test area through 2012 found there was an 11 percent to 20 percent reduction in speed-related crashes, depending on which stretch of road was being evaluated.

"The study also found that the actual speed maintained by drivers on that stretch was about 82 to 84 mph, whether the posted speed limit was 75 mph or 80 mph.

""People are driving at the speed at which they feel comfortable, and they are doing it safely and prudently," he said.""

Full article here:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/07/22/stateline-speed-limit/2575047/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Judging by Tesla owner demographic surveys that say the majority ranked performance at the top of their reasons for buying, b. isn't correct either. Or, for a wider look at their interests,

http://www.gravity.com/blog/what-your-electric-car-says-about-you/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[dhanson865]

b. The average Tesla owner is willing to pay $70k+ to drive slower than semis.

"Judging by my own experience and many others of the real rural freeway speeds out west, a. isn't correct.

Are you that inflexible? Do you think everyone is?

I normally avoid certain restaurants and certain types of food for reasons of taste, nutrition, cost, convenience, etcetera. I can guarantee you if I'm on a long range road trip my standards are more flexible than when I'm near home or near an area I know well.

Sure I can see that they may WANT to drive faster. Sure some might say they "need" to drive faster. But if it's a once a year trip is it so crazy to drive the very very nice Tesla Model S over the stupid oil burner they have as a spare vehicle when it's just one leg of the trip that might involve changing their driving habits?

If you are on a 1000 mile trip and one 200 mile portion has less chargers on it you can drive like you want for 800 or so of the miles and you can adjust your driving for 100-200 miles as needed.

Now if you are more about money than smarts then fine cut off your nose to spite your face.

And if you think this specific 200 mile stretch is the new normal you are mistaken, its an unusual case that the average Tesla owner won't be dealing with on a daily basis.

Honestly I think focusing on these sort of corner cases is disingenuous. Besides aren't you in California where there are chargers every 3rd street corner?

 

[GRA]

b. The average Tesla owner is willing to pay $70k+ to drive slower than semis.

"Judging by my own experience and many others of the real rural freeway speeds out west, a. isn't correct.

Are you that inflexible? Do you think everyone is?

Am I? If I'd just spent $70k on a car, you're damned right I would be (not that I ever would; it's a CAR, fa' chrissakes). And I expect that the majority of people who can afford to spend that kind of money on a car place a high value on their time, and expect it to get them from place to place at their desired speed, on their desired route, and with a minimum of discomfort and inconvenience. As to my general flexibility, I've slept in everything from snowcaves to public bathrooms to high-class hotel rooms, and traveled by foot, ski, bike, horse, kayak, car, train, and plane, so I suspect my flexibility as to the amount of discomfort or inconvenience I will willingly put up with is a lot greater than the typical Tesla buyer

But let's look at what the Florida legislature is considering:

"Speed Limit Could Go Up to 75 On I-95 By July, and to 70 on U.S. 1"

http://flaglerlive.com/61116/florida-speed-limits/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I normally avoid certain restaurants and certain types of food for reasons of taste, nutrition, cost, convenience, etcetera. I can guarantee you if I'm on a long range road trip my standards are more flexible than when I'm near home or near an area I know well.

Sure I can see that they may WANT to drive faster. Sure some might say they "need" to drive faster. But if it's a once a year trip is it so crazy to drive the very very nice Tesla Model S over the stupid oil burner they have as a spare vehicle when it's just one leg of the trip that might involve changing their driving habits?

If you are on a 1000 mile trip and one 200 mile portion has less chargers on it you can drive like you want for 800 or so of the miles and you can adjust your driving for 100-200 miles as needed.

Now if you are more about money than smarts then fine cut off your nose to spite your face.

And if you think this specific 200 mile stretch is the new normal you are mistaken, its an unusual case that the average Tesla owner won't be dealing with on a daily basis.

Honestly I think focusing on these sort of corner cases is disingenuous. Besides aren't you in California where there are chargers every 3rd street corner?

I must have missed them - I know there aren't yet any SCs that would allow a Tesla owner to drive from the Bay Area to Yosemite, or North Lake Tahoe without a detour (see the complaints about those on the TMC forum) etc. And CHAdeMO isn't much use to me either, given that they're missing from most of the routes that I'd need it, and even on the routes where I could use them there's normally just one, often a Blink, and their operational reliability far too often mimics their name.