The battery question mark.

[Caddiac]

It seems that the question of "what happens when the battery starts to fail?" has not been answered any where that I can find. I searched the forums so I hope what I am about to share is not old news.

I had a chance to talk to a Nissan Service Manager and I popped the question regarding the battery replacement. He told me that the Leaf's battery is made up of 48 individual cells that are all accessible from the passenger compartment. So if a cell starts to fail, it can be replaced. Now the question that needs answering is "What is the cost?.

That will depend largely on labor cost of having to remove interior parts to get to the batteries. If you have to gain access to change one cell that has failed but there is another than will likely fail in the coming year, it would be more cost effective to change both at the same time.

The final question is "do you really care?". My answer is yes. I am buying, not leasing and I tend keep my vehicles if they do not turn out to be a POS. My '98 Suburban has 248,000 miles, looks and runs good enough for me to come visit our west coast members. Who knows, by the time the first generation of Leaf batteries reach EOL, it may be possible for us home mechanics to do the job on a Saturday.

 

[Randy]

If you had one of those 48 battery modules fail during the battery warranty, Nissan would cover the cost.

If it happened after the warranty, I believe the price of one module right now is something like $650 or so, plus the labor to remove the pack, install the cell, test, and re-install the pack. Not sure what that would cost.

This has been discussed on the forum quite a bit. I don't think most people are concerned about a failing module or two. Most people are concerned about battery pack degradation. Will it be 10% after 5 years? 8 years? 20% after 10 years? Depends on how the battery was treated, for sure...

 

[mwalsh]

Depends on how the battery was treated, for sure...

Or not...... :lol:

 

[DaveL]

It's unfortunate that usually reliable "Service Managers" are not always up to speed on the Leaf when they answers questions like this.

Actually there are 196 "Cells" contain within 48 sealed "Modules" (4 cells per module). All 48 modules are contained within a sealed "Battery Pack". The Battery pack is attached to the underside of the vehicle with what looks to be 10 bolts according to the service manual. The battery pack IS NOT accessable from inside the car.

Once the pack is lowered from the vehicle and put on the work bench, there are 28 bolts that have to be taken out to separate the top of the battery pack from the bottom.

I've outlined just the physical connections. There is also a number of connectors that have to be removed and then replaced. However, from looking at the service manual, it dosn't look like a difficult job to replace modules.

My hope is that by the time that modules need to be replaced that there will be newer modules available that hold more charge. While Nissan may not offer battery upgrades, if there are enough Leafs on the market, I'm sure that some 3rd party companies will.

Dave

 

[smkettner]

I will deal with it when I get there. No need to speculate.

 

[Herm]

Do you mean a module failure or just normal capacity degradation?.. these batteries are wear items, they take damage every time they are cycled.

 

[TonyWilliams]

He told me that the Leaf's battery is made up of 48 individual cells that are all accessible from the passenger compartment. So if a cell starts to fail, it can be replaced. Now the question that needs answering is "What is the cost?.

That will depend largely on labor cost of having to remove interior parts to get to the batteries.

The cells are NOT accessible from the passenger compartment. The 660 pound battery is dropped after the six mounting bolt are removed (and the three electrical connections). Once the battery is removed, then a whole bunch of little bolts around the outside of the battery assembly are removed to get the cover off, and access the 48 modules, each which hold 4 individual cells, for a total of 192 cells. Two of the four cells in each module are in parallel, and two are in series.

 

[Caddiac]

Thanks for the clarification and all the input. I prefer not to wait until the time comes and do not want to speculate. What I am looking for are answers and information like what I see on this site. :mrgreen:

 

[edatoakrun]

Has anyone had the battery pack removed for any reason? Did your dealer tell you what the warrantee rate, time or $, was for this?

Just curious, as it looks like a fairly "easy" job.

It would seem unlikely that no LEAF has had a battery problem requiring removal yet, but I haven't seen it reported on MNL.

 

[SteveInSeattle]

The battery is going to be extremely expensive-- and there is no reason to expect a significant drop in cost as lithium is in limited supply (in terms of accessible for industrial use, not in theoretical concentration). The whole economics of the Leaf will not be known until we know the length of the battery useful life. If it is 5 years I will consider my experience with my Leaf a failure-- if it is 10 I will be pleased. If this concerns you or if you wish to keep the Leaf like you have your other cars to a ripe old age-- this probably is not the car for you, or at least not yet. I consider my Leaf purchase a gamble, but one I can afford to take and I enjoy being an early adopter.

 

[garygid]

New replacement module cost of about $600?
For that price (after or out of warranty) do you get to keep the old module?

So, probably replace one module in an OLD battery Pack for about $1000?

Or, buy a whole NEW battery Pack (48 perhaps-improved modules) for something less than about $35,000 I suspect ... AND get to keep the old 48 modules, AND have a spare, motor, inverter, charger, cup-holder, shift knob, wheels, tires, chassis, etc.?

Maybe one can make a business out of buying new LEAFs and selling them for half-price parts:
4 wheels at $500 = $2000 / 2 = $1000
4 tires at $200 / 2 = $400
1 power steering assembly $4000 / 2 = $2000
1 shifter assembly $600 / 2 = $300
48 modules at $600 / 2 = $14,400
back hatch assembly ...
etc.

 

[mxp]

I would be interested in what DBM Energy Kolibri has to offer as a battery upgrade hopefully for the Nissan Leaf in 8 years time....

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/04/05/dbm-energy-record-breaking-kolibri-battery-passes-government-tests/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Volusiano]

The battery is going to be extremely expensive-- and there is no reason to expect a significant drop in cost as lithium is in limited supply (in terms of accessible for industrial use, not in theoretical concentration). The whole economics of the Leaf will not be known until we know the length of the battery useful life. If it is 5 years I will consider my experience with my Leaf a failure-- if it is 10 I will be pleased. If this concerns you or if you wish to keep the Leaf like you have your other cars to a ripe old age-- this probably is not the car for you, or at least not yet. I consider my Leaf purchase a gamble, but one I can afford to take and I enjoy being an early adopter.

I'm not going to argue about the price drop (or lack of). But I'm not so sure I would buy the statement that it's because lithium is in short supply. I've read in many places that battery manufacturers are actually gearing up battery production too quickly such that five years from now, there will actually be an excess battery production capacity, more than enough to supply future EVs that are going to be in production. How is this possible if lithium is in short supply?

 

[adric22]

Well, I am not worried about the battery life. I realize it is a different chemistry than the batteries used in the Prius, but I think it is still a good comparison. When hybrids first came out, everyone was worried about the batteries going bad and how much they would cost to replace. While it is true the first generation Prius using prismatic modules had leakage problems, the 2004 and newer seem to have rock-solid batteries with virtually no failures. Also the cost of the battery pack has dropped tremendously since the vehicle came to market.

I bought a 2002 Prius with 168,000 miles on it from a guy back in 2009 for a measly $3,000 because it had a bad battery pack (one of the early leaky ones). I spent $1,900 for a brand new pack, installed it in my garage in about 8 hours time. I drove that car for a year after, then sold it to a friend of mine who is still driving it to this day. If the leaf lasts 168,000 miles on its battery pack, I consider that to be a success. And if replacing the battery pack gives the driver another 168,000 miles then I'd say that is not a bad proposition at all.

Another thing to consider. There are already aftermarket companies springing into existence to refurbish hybrid battery packs. No doubt this will happen for EV's as well. So when your battery finally goes bad and you are out of warranty you will likely have the option to buy a brand new battery pack, or buy a refurbished pack for half the cost.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Well, I am not worried about the battery life. I realize it is a different chemistry than the batteries used in the Prius, but I think it is still a good comparison. When hybrids first came out, everyone was worried about the batteries going bad and how much they would cost to replace. While it is true the first generation Prius using prismatic modules had leakage problems, the 2004 and newer seem to have rock-solid batteries with virtually no failures. Also the cost of the battery pack has dropped tremendously since the vehicle came to market.

I bought a 2002 Prius with 168,000 miles on it from a guy back in 2009 for a measly $3,000 because it had a bad battery pack (one of the early leaky ones). I spent $1,900 for a brand new pack, installed it in my garage in about 8 hours time. I drove that car for a year after, then sold it to a friend of mine who is still driving it to this day. If the leaf lasts 168,000 miles on its battery pack, I consider that to be a success. And if replacing the battery pack gives the driver another 168,000 miles then I'd say that is not a bad proposition at all.

Another thing to consider. There are already aftermarket companies springing into existence to refurbish hybrid battery packs. No doubt this will happen for EV's as well. So when your battery finally goes bad and you are out of warranty you will likely have the option to buy a brand new battery pack, or buy a refurbished pack for half the cost.

The two chemists are very different and they are also managed differently in the Prius. I would not compare longevity or cost against the two not to mention the present economies of scale in that form factor. Don't expect even remotely affordable pack replacement in the LEAF in the next five years.

 

[pjoseph]

The two chemists are very different and they are also managed differently in the Prius. I would not compare longevity or cost against the two not to mention the present economies of scale in that form factor. Don't expect even remotely affordable pack replacement in the LEAF in the next five years.

Sounds very speculative to me.

Do you want to elaborate a bit? Especially on that part about affordability. On another note, can you also predict how much gas will cost in 5 years?

 

[amtoro]

We should not look only at the cost of a new battery for when the traction pack capacity becomes too little for each individual driver; Nissan has said that they will recondition the battery modules after they are exchanged, therefore, I would assume there is a value in the module after its useful life and just like a lead-acid battery, the replacement cost certain amount of money minus the "core" charge, or in other words, the residual value of the existing battery.

Also, how long it will "last" is a very subjective matter; for some drivers, a 10% loss in capacity would be catastrophic, for others, even 25% or 30% capacity loss would still be enough to go where they usually go every day.

 

[JRP3]

Not only is lithium not in short supply it's also not very expensive and a very small portion of the entire battery pack. The copper in the pack is probably the most expensive material.

The battery is going to be extremely expensive-- and there is no reason to expect a significant drop in cost as lithium is in limited supply (in terms of accessible for industrial use, not in theoretical concentration). The whole economics of the Leaf will not be known until we know the length of the battery useful life. If it is 5 years I will consider my experience with my Leaf a failure-- if it is 10 I will be pleased. If this concerns you or if you wish to keep the Leaf like you have your other cars to a ripe old age-- this probably is not the car for you, or at least not yet. I consider my Leaf purchase a gamble, but one I can afford to take and I enjoy being an early adopter.

I'm not going to argue about the price drop (or lack of). But I'm not so sure I would buy the statement that it's because lithium is in short supply. I've read in many places that battery manufacturers are actually gearing up battery production too quickly such that five years from now, there will actually be an excess battery production capacity, more than enough to supply future EVs that are going to be in production. How is this possible if lithium is in short supply?

 

[Sarterfish]

Here is my perspective on this; Battery technology will improve dramatically, no doubt even exponentially over the next 5 to 10 years and beyond. Batteries will become longer range, quicker to charge, smaller, lighter, CHEAPER, and L-ion will likely be outdated as it is dependent on a limited resource. (look at your used-to-be "cell phone" that is now a pocket PC in less than 15 years time). Micro electric technology advances are truly exponential in nature as we have all witnessed. EV technology advances will not be any slower, and likely much faster.

The fact will remain that an electric motor can use any battery source as long as the voltage and amperage is correct, or adapted. If the LEAF has a large storage area for battery cells and access to the batteries is easy, upgrades will be exponentially as great as the technology advances allow, when the time and economics are right for an individual to do so. The now huge battery installation area will be obsolete, but will allow for an excess number of new generation cells that will provide unbelievable range if filled to capacity. (or maybe it will accommodate fuel cell/ battery hybrid applications as well?)

The important factors then become; how well engineered and durable is the electric motor, the chassis, the suspension, the vehicle overall; just as in any automobile. Electric motors have very few moving parts and if engineered and built well can last 50 years or more. Will the vehicle as a whole perform as well? I hope so, as I intend to purchase my Leaf tomorrow!

Renewable energy, and energy storage is the future of our new energy paradigm, and we as investors in this technology are pioneers. It is the best possible gift we can can give our children and future generations. Congratulations, and thanks to everyone involved!


-JJS

 

[JRP3]

Here is my perspective on this; Battery technology will improve dramatically, no doubt even exponentially over the next 5 to 10 years and beyond. Batteries will become longer range, quicker to charge, smaller, lighter, CHEAPER, and L-ion will likely be outdated as it is dependent on a limited resource. (look at your used-to-be "cell phone" that is now a pocket PC in less than 15 years time). Micro electric technology advances are truly exponential in nature as we have all witnessed. EV technology advances will not be any slower, and likely much faster.

Micro electric technology has nothing to do with battery chemistry advances, do not expect any type of "Moore's Law" progression for batteries. Slow steady advances of around 5-10% a year with a potential jump here and there from something new is most likely. I'm not sure what limited resource you are talking about with lithium cell chemistry, it is certainly not lithium, which is plentiful and cheap.